How does women acting masculine, and vice versa, harm society?

Gamiac · 2014-02-02T20:38:23+00:00

I've heard this claim a fair bit in Red Pill circles, but I would like to know what reasons, if any, you guys have for thinking this is true....

[–]p3ndulumRed Pill Man9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

Masculine is attracted to feminine, and vice versa.

I guess, if it does any harm at all, it's that a woman who has more masculine traits instilled in them might eventually grow up to become attracted to masculine men - but so few of those men will be attracted to her because of her masculinity. She might find herself, instead, in a relationship with a weak/effeminate guy, who she may be quick to lose respect for.

That girl then grows up to become insecure, or develops an unnatural resentment towards men (because they won't accept her for who she is).

A feminine man won't be able to attract the women he is into because in all probability, those women will be attracted to more masculine guys.

Nature likes balance and harmony. If the mind of a human makes a conscious effort to augment that flow, the whole system gets thrown for a loop. And then like a broken record, it will keep skipping. Girl/boy grows up without a traditional gender identity, finds that it's difficult to mate, becomes resentful towards opposite sex/gender, pollutes collective conscience with woe-is-me, attracts like minded individuals, has casual sex, accidental birth, two parents aren't committed to each other or the child, kid grows up to be a weirdo/can't attract the partner he/she wants. Rinse. Repeat.

Just a hypothesis though.

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[–]p3ndulumRed Pill Man4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

You're talking about an essence. It's like a tone or frequency. Men and women do the majority of things very much the same, but with a flavouring or twist of femininity or masculinity.

It's in the posture, the walk and the swaying of hips (or not).

It's in the bass or treble of the voice.

It's a gracefulness or a swagger.

It's the way they stand.

It's in the way they communicate.

You know it when you see it, call it what you want.

I've lived in the gay community, I've seen people who were born with dicks practicing their versions of "femininity". How they talk, how they walk in heels, how they apply make-up and fix their hair.

Again, call it what you want to call it, but what those homos realize (what many of you seem to be straight up in denial about) is that there is an obvious difference between "masculinity" and "femininity". Otherwise there would be no point in them practicing their femininity assuming they were trying to attract masculinity.

[–]liah[🍰] 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I've lived in the gay community, I've seen people who were born with dicks practicing their versions of "femininity". How they talk, how they walk in heels, how they apply make-up and fix their hair

I'm sorry, I think I need a clarification - you emphasised the word 'practicing' in reference to gay men, as though you believe women do not practice these things?

Women absolutely practice the way they move, talk, enunciate, communicate - and are instructed to do so. Not many will admit it, but we've pretty much all done our time in the mirror practicing graceful ways of moving, or altered our voices/intonation/accent when we started becoming socially aware, or had our fathers or mothers or grandparents or friends scoff and then tell us what ladies are 'supposed' to do. It does not come naturally; it is not intuited; it is not an inherent way of being. If you are raised around those who act that way, as a child, you mimick them. It appears natural to the outsider, but it is absolutely 100% learned behaviour.

Take a look outside of white European culture and you'll find all kinds of different ways femininity is expressed that is wildly different to something you apparently think is simply inherent to women.

[–]twentyfoursevensex6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Those_Who_RemainIrrelevant Homosexual9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]p3ndulumRed Pill Man-2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I think that in this particular case, these gays (queens and twinks) were out to attract those borderline/closet/bi-curious men.

But in support of what you said, my roommate at the time likened his homosexuality to a curse - to be attracted to masculinity but to be unattractive to it at the same time.

And when I think about it, the friends and acquaintances that were in the longest relationships were the more masculine/straight'ish types. The more feminine ones were the ones most likely to give a dude a blowjob on the sidewalk in broad daylight.

In my experience with gay men, it's always seemed as though there is a soul of a woman trapped in the shell of a man, being juiced up with testosterone. Even my super Alpha roommate who was built like a gladiator still acts and moves like Oprah in a man costume.

I also believe that not all gay men experience this trapped woman phenomenon, but it makes complete sense to me why most gay men are turned off by femininity - they're gay men, and gay men like men.

This is what I was implying in my other thread; that masculinity and femininity aren't things that are found in any particular trait, but is found in the essence of a way of being, and so it's those essences that become attracted to or repelled by the other, not any single or particular trait.

Getting back to OP's question, if a woman has a lot of masculinity, there is nothing inherently bad about that. She can cuss and spit and dig in coal mines until her heart's content. The hiccup comes later when she is trying to find a mate. Her options will be extremely limited.

What happens then if all boys are raised to wholly embrace femininity and all girls were raised the way we currently raise boys and men?

I suspect there would still be sex, but nobody would really be that interested in committing to each other. And that means weaker familiar ties a d more dysfunctional families and societies.

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[–]p3ndulumRed Pill Man-3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

You're trying to intellectualize an essence, or an aura.

There aren't any English words that can be used to describe masculinity or femininity, these are things that can only be experienced.

Imagine only being able to see silhouettes of people moving around. Without knowing their names or faces, or what's between their legs, it should be fairly easy to pick out the men from the women.

Even when you're wrong, you're probably going to find a homosexual behind the shadow who has emphasized the essence of whatever sex or gender they are trying to mimic (likely in an effort to attract a mate).

So there really aren't any definable traits, really. Unless, I guess you could label wide hips as "feminine", as well as big soft breasts - neither of which I suspect very many women would find attractive in a male.

Maybe you could label swearing/cursing as masculine? I know that any time I hear a woman curse it's not uncommon for me to cringe and think "that's not very lady like".

But again, you know it to see it. And if you're not sure, just look for the things that the opposite sexes find the most attractive in their mates/partners. (Dont ask, just look.)

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points18 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

You're trying to intellectualize an essence, or an aura.

sigh

This is retarded. You're throwing big fancy words around that are meaningless. Masculinity and femininity are not nebulous concepts.

Look, there are many areas of academia that touch on gender dynamics and the extent to which they're socially constructed (don't worry, it's not just feminists). They have no problem coming up with a multitude of concepts to describe masculinity and femininity.

I mean, you could at least read the Wikipedia pages before you start coming up with these theories.

TRP spends an awful lot of time telling men to be more masculine, but doesn't even know how to define masculinity? Traits that are typically associated with men and which TRP encourages men to cultivate - courage, reason, strength, independent, etc... - those traits make women unattractive? Is that what you're telling me?

Are you telling me that chicks who curse are unattractive? To each his own I guess, but if you think this is universally unattractive... then you're out of your mind. I've never been with a girl who didn't curse, I thought it was something that every human being ever does in agreeable company.

[–]p3ndulumRed Pill Man-5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

So dumb.

Masculinity and femininity are like mosaics. You put a bunch of different parts together in a certain way and when you stand back you can see the sum of all of those parts, but none of those parts alone are masculinity or femininity.

If anything, what TRP is saying in this particular context is: if you keep adding more pieces of a particular set of parts, eventually your mosaic begins to appear more masculine. Conversely, a woman who keeps adding pieces from the same set will become less attractive to it's complementary set of parts.

This is why I was hesitant to be specific, because of how easy it is for anybody to say "you're tryig to tell me that particular part is masculine/feminine??"

No man, what I'm saying is that that particular part is most often found in the "masculine" box of parts, and it's whatever to only take a couple of parts, but eventually if she takes too many parts from the set she is trying to attract, she is goin to find herself unattractive to that set.

Women can swear a they want, I don't really give a shit. I just won't be interested in trying to build a romantic relationship with her.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Masculinity and femininity are like mosaics. You put a bunch of different parts together in a certain way and when you stand back you can see the sum of all of those parts, but none of those parts alone are masculinity or femininity.

Great. What are those parts?

You're saying "men should be this, women should be that" without even defining what "this" and "that" are. "Masculinity" and "femininity" are culturally constructed concepts that have changed drastically with time and location; if you're going to insist that men and women are making themselves uglier by acting outside their "gender role", you really ought to be a bit more specific.

Is being submissive masculine or feminine? Is being aggressive masculine or feminine? Is expressing stoicism in difficult times masculine or feminine? Why or why not?

Many, many people have defined masculinity and femininity long before you were even born. Why don't you go see what they have to say about it instead of assuming you already know everything? Here, I'll even help you get started.

The very first link that pops up looks like a good one.

EDIT:

Women can swear a they want, I don't really give a shit. I just won't be interested in trying to build a romantic relationship with her.

Interesting. We'll just add that to list right between, "Rides a horse" and "Has short hair". And TRP ideologues wonder why they can never find interesting women...

[–]p3ndulumRed Pill Man-5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I said that masculinity and femininity are ways of expression, not things

Oh. Well then, you're wrong. See: all the links I made in my previous post.

It's like you're talking to other Red Pill members through me because I never said men should be this or women should be that.

So what was this all about? Did you change your mind halfway through our discussion, or did you just type that for shits and giggles?

Even if you didn't post your theory about why women with "masculine" traits are ugly (and then proceed to insist that "masculinity" can't even be defined), you're here in /r/PurplePillDebate as a representative of TRP. You've taken on their name, so it's reasonable to assume that you adhere to their ideology, no? Gender roles are central to their ideology. They specifically tell men to "be more masculine" because every woman wants to fuck a masculine man.

You're trying to tell men that they should be masculine, then you're insisting that there's no way to know what masculine is. Even though that's total bullshit, because I just gave you a couple of resources defining masculinity and femininity for you.

You're being intentionally vague so you can't be held accountable for your ridiculous theories like the one you posted above.

And stop trying shame me for not finding specific things attractive.

TRP shames men who like women that don't fit the bar-slut archetype, and women who don't fit into their tiny, neat little box. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

[–]autowikibot1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Slippery slope fallacy:

In logic and critical thinking, a slippery slope is a logical device, but is usually known under its fallacious form in which a person asserts that some event must inevitably follow from another without any rational argument or demonstrable mechanism for the inevitability of the event in question. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom. The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process which leads to the significant effect. The fallacious sense of "slippery slope" is often used synonymously with continuum fallacy, in that it ignores the possibility of middle ground and assumes a discrete transition from category A to category B. Modern usage avoids the fallacy by acknowledging the possibility of this middle ground.

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That class of men is estimated to be around half of men 18-34 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sean-mcmanus/is-it-time-to-invent-a-ne_b_257591.html). It's a major issue in the country.

As debilitating as Japanese work culture might be (and I don't disagree here, the country could probably use some reforms) you can't avoid the issue that these men lack the basic ingredients needed for a society to succeed. They are unambitious, unattractive, and have no pride in their country - say what you want about the backbreaking work environment, but you can't universalize these attitudes and expect the society to maintain its current standards of living.

Societies need innovators, risk-takers, and men ready to take control - there's never been a successful nation that didn't. As brutal and unhealthy as the worst of Japanese hyper-masculinity may be, I'd still take it over the uselessness that lies ahead if Japan doesn't up its game.

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No. I would contend that there are also many people who feel it unimportant, but a lot of media and societal attitudes reinforce the fact that it somehow is, so it would be a very confusing experience to someone who feels like they have to adopt certain traits in order for society to accept them.

For example, a man who was raised to value peaceful resolution over violence would feel alienated at media depicting macho men committing acts of violence to solve their problems. They would also feel alienated if they successfully talked people down from or avoided conflict but were only called a pussy for it.

They would disagree with masculinity because it conflicts with their own values, and they would feel alienated from it as a result because all they experienced were people invalidating their own gender identity because they didn't conform to what society expects from it.

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In general, the individuals who are naturally inclined to emulate the behavior of the opposite sex aren't harmful to society, because their numbers are so small. What has proven harmful is the promotion of such gender inversion among the general population.

The demonization of masculinity, when practiced by men, has lead to many men being confused and conflicted about their own natures. In much the same way that homosexuals, prior to the rise of the gay rights movement, were tormented by the idea that their natural inclinations were shameful and immoral. Put simply, being a masculine man in today's society feels a lot like what I imagine being gay in the 1950s would have.

There is a similar dynamic where women are concerned, but for them the consequences are worse. The female sexual and social identity is more malleable than that of the male, so feminine women don't seem to be afflicted with the same angst which masculine men deal with. Unfortunately, society encourages them to follow a masculine life plan; school to career, then having children only once they've established themselves in their late twenties or thirties.

This means many women don't even attempt to start families until their fertility has gone into decline. They may also not seek to find a good husband until after their attractiveness has begun to decline as well.

Masculine men can recover from their bad conditioning as they mature, and salvage their futures. However, women following a masculine life plan, often realize too late that they've squandered the best chance they had for a happy, healthy family life. I suspect that this is part of what's been driving the decline in fertility rates in the U.S. and other western nations.

The issue isn't that some men and women emulate the opposite sex. The real issue is that the normative conduct of each gender has been declared taboo. A majority of society is being told that their natural inclinations are shameful, and are being encouraged to conduct themselves in ways which don't come naturally and which leave worse off than if they had followed their instincts.

[–]Those_Who_RemainIrrelevant Homosexual6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Put simply, being a masculine man in today's society feels a lot like what I imagine being gay in the 1950s would have.

Really?

You seriously overestimate how 'demonized' masculine men are. The two situations are in no way comparable, unless you can provide some very convincing arguments for this.

The real issue is that the normative conduct of each gender has been declared taboo. A majority of society is being told that their natural inclinations are shameful, and are being encouraged to conduct themselves in ways which don't come naturally and which leave worse off than if they had followed their instincts.

You'll really need to give some examples for this, since I rarely see the 'taboo' you are talking about. I see plenty of masculine men and plenty of feminine women here that are in no way being judged for being like that. Maybe it's different in the Netherlands compared to the US, but I do not see it.

[–]TehGinjaNinjaRed Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The two situations are in no way comparable, unless you can provide some very convincing arguments for this.

The presumption of pedophilia is an obvious parallel. One could make the argument that as this applies to all men, it does not support the idea that masculine men are the target. However, as masculinity is the default disposition of men, any marginalization of men in general is perforce an marginalization of masculinity.

This ties into another parallel between the demonization of gay man and the demonization of masculine men; the idea that they are sex obsessed. Media depictions of masculine men often depict them as lacking the desire or ability to control their sexual impulses.

This is part of a threat narrative concerning male sexuality that historically was applied to gays and some minorities (blacks in particular) to make them seem dangerous on a sexual level. Now that threat narrative is applied to masculine men for the same reason, to justify marginalizing them.

Before we get any deeper into this I want to make my terminology, and position, clear. By "masculine" I do not simply mean "straight". Masculinity, as a sexual identity, has specific traits which, while shared by most men, are not universal. In particular it is inherently aggressive and dominant.

Some people may object to those traits being described as essential elements of masculine sexuality, because aggression and dominance are now often depicted as synonymous with violence and oppression. The marginalization of those traits, their frequent depiction in media as negative, is part of the marginalization of masculinity.

The inclusion of aggression and dominance in healthy, normal masculine sexuality is important to recognize. Any expression of sexual aggression or desire for dominance is now attacked as "objectification", "sexist", or even "rapey". Thus, the expression of masculine desires is now depicted as immoral and shameful, just as the expression of homosexual desires have historically been depicted.

Another important parallel is in the issue of employment. Gays, historically and even in some regions today, have feared loss of employment should their sexual identity become known. Similarly, masculine men now fear termination should a female coworker take offense at their masculinity in the work place. Conduct which once would have been taken as harmless, is now cast as "sexist" or even "harassing", and cost a man his job.

Even without a shred of proof, the simple accusation of "sexual harassment"" is enough to get a man terminated. As many companies would rather fire an employee than risk a law suit.

Men cannot even interact with each other in a masculine fashion, using coarse humor for example, without fear that they will be overheard and fired as a result of complaints from someone who was "offended" by their comments. Donglegate is a prime example of this phenomenon.

You'll really need to give some examples for this, since I rarely see the 'taboo' you are talking about.

In addition to the examples pertaining to men above, here is an example of the taboo applied to women. This article from Hooking Up Smart covers the feminine side of the issue in greater detail. Money quote:

My generation was actively discouraged from femininity

Maybe it's different in the Netherlands compared to the US

It's very different. I suspect this article, which offers an outsider's view of Dutch culture, will be quite the eye opener for you. This quote is illustrative of how a typical western feminist reacts to Dutch sensibilities:

Writer and economist Heleen Mees, for example, argues that the stereotypical Dutch woman has become complacent. “Even at the University of Amsterdam—the most progressive university we have—I had a 22-year-old student say, ‘Why is it your business if my wife wants to bake cookies?’ and the female students agreed with him! I was like, what’s happening here?”

Mees runs an organization called Women on Top that strives to push more Dutch women into ambitious career paths. Its slogan is “Out with the part-time feminism!” and it points to part-time work as a major factor in a lingering pay gap.

Notice the obligatory mention of the "pay gap" between men and women. The obsession with women making less money than men is a popular feminist trope. American culture is now so beholden to feminism that the President mentioned it (in the form of the "77 cents for every dollar" myth) in his most recent State of The Union Address.

[–]alphabetmodamused modstery[M] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]KittyHamiltonBlue Pill Woman2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]TehGinjaNinjaRed Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Okay, first off, comparing the plight of men to the plight of homosexuals is is...just...bad. Not comparable in the slightest.

See the first section of my response to another commenter here.

How long ago was it in the western world when women were barred from voting, for instance?

And how long ago was it when most men were "barred" from voting? Answer: not long.

Voting is not a right, it's a privilege. Through out most of history it was a privilege extended to a minority of people; specifically, those seen as the responsible members of society. Originally in the U.S. voting privileges in a community were restricted to the men who owned land within said community.

This privilege was expanded to include landless laborers in the wake of the industrial revolution, and then to women and minorities shortly thereafter. In fact women, as a class, got the right to vote before 18-20 year old men did, despite such young men being subject to the draft.

And, of course, today the privilege of voting is routinely stripped from those who have been convicted of felonies. In some states that is a temporary suspension of voting "rights", in other it is permanent. Needless to say, the vast majority of those convicted of felonies, and thus stripped of the democratic franchise, are men.

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[–]TehGinjaNinjaRed Pill Man2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

This is just semantics.

No, it's a direct challenge to the idea that women's historically subordinate role in society was a product of a class conflict between men and women. Most societies throughout history were dominated by a small class of elites who denied power to everyone else regardless of gender.

Universal suffrage is still not a social reality for men or women, not in America at any rate. In the face of that truth, the plaintive wailing from feminists about how long it took women to get the vote is tiresome and misplaced.

For goodness sake, look at the comment with which you started this debate on suffrage:

You state that both sexes have been told their natural inclinations are shameful, but look at history. How long ago was it in the western world when women were barred from voting, for instance?

This makes no sense. What does women getting the vote in 1920 have to do with the assertion I made that "both sexes have been told their natural inclinations are shameful". What's the connection? Why did you even raise it? It's a non sequitur!

I have to assume you only brought it up because you had no relevant response, i.e. it's misplaced.

[–]KittyHamiltonBlue Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

This makes no sense. What does women getting the vote in 1920 have to do with the assertion I made that "both sexes have been told their natural inclinations are shameful". What's the connection? Why did you even raise it? It's a non sequitur!

Incorrect.

The point is that behavior is shaped by culture, and vice versa. You have declared certain behaviors to be "normative". According you, these normative behaviors are now considered taboo.

But you seem to consider more traditional gender roles to be more "normative", that is, closer to natural behavior.

However, that's just picking and choosing which culture fits your own view of what "normative" is. Women didn't marry young back in the day purely out of some kind of natural need. There always have, and always will be certain cultural norms.

[–]TehGinjaNinjaRed Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Ah, I see, you were trying to cite voting rights as an example of norms changing over time.

I'm using "norm" in a statistical, rather than moral or cultural sense. Also, I'm not talking about specific behaviors which could be reasonably considered elements of culture. I'm talking about instinctive desires and the broad patterns of behavior people exhibit in response to those desires.

Hence my use of homosexuality as an analogy. A homosexual man's attraction to other men cannot reasonably be considered a cultural phenomenon; particularly in the context of America circa 1950. The culture actively discouraged it. The arbiters of moral norms inveigled against it and declared it taboo.

Yet it still manifested, because it was the innate proclivity of a certain percentage of the population. All the cultural authorities of that age were able to accomplish was to make homosexuals the targets of scorn and violence, and to inflict a great deal of emotional suffering on the homosexuals who accepted the idea that their innate drives were abhorrent.

Similarly, the arbiters of moral norms today inveigle against masculine men and feminine women. Unfortunately for today's arbiters of the right and the good, masculinity is a normative (statistically speaking) inclination for men; i.e. most men are inclined to be masculine. This leads to large numbers of men feeling intense shame as their innate desires conflict with their social programming, or it simply leads them to reject the programming out right.

Likewise, most women are inclined to be feminine, but women are more conformist than men and have a more flexible sense of sexual identity. This means they accept socialization on the terms of modern moral authorities with less psychological stress. Unfortunately for women, their adherence to social programming which conflicts with their (statistically) normative desires does not actually make them happy. Hence the well known phenomenon of declining female happiness in societies featuring increased female empowerment.

I am not picking and choosing cultural norms, I'm discussing statistical norms of sexual preference and behavior rooted in biology. Personally, I don't care what cultural practices people engage in, so long as those practices are productive and fulfilling for them and don't harm others.

My complaint, and the TRP complaint, with feminism is not that I object to feminists living how they want. I take exception to their opposition to other people leading happy fulfilling lives. I take exception to their promotion of cultural norms which are in stark conflict with instinctive desires of most of the population. I object to this because it is causing human suffering on a vast scale.

[–]KittyHamiltonBlue Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Similarly, the arbiters of moral norms today inveigle against masculine men and feminine women.

Er. What? They do?

All right, there are definitely some shitty feminists who hold this shitty position, but I don't think there are many, if any, thoughtful ones who hold this position. The point is that there are no roles imposed from on high.

Hence the well known phenomenon of declining female happiness in societies featuring increased female empowerment.

If I remember correctly, the statistic I saw related to this showed that women became less happy once they moved into the workplace...but men were already far more unhappy than women. So it wasn't like women were less happy than men in the workplace, and were not suited to it. The workplace is just shitty for everyone.

However, I might have totally misremembered the stat. In any case, that one stat doesn't prove that the problem is female empowerment. For example, maybe women are going into jobs that are extra crappy compared to the ones men are going into. Maybe women are finding themselves balancing both children and work, and it's stressing them out. Maybe women are experiencing sexism in the workplace. Maybe domestic life is just more relaxing for both men and women, and everyone needs more time off.

I am not picking and choosing cultural norms, I'm discussing statistical norms of sexual preference and behavior rooted in biology.

Ah, but here's the problem: what's cultural and what's biological? They can influence one another. I don't know of any prominent cultures where there were no culturally imposed roles for men and women at all. The statistics change as the cultures change.

My complaint, and the TRP complaint, with feminism is not that I object to feminists living how they want. I take exception to their opposition to other people leading happy fulfilling lives. I take exception to their promotion of cultural norms which are in stark conflict with instinctive desires of most of the population. I object to this because it is causing human suffering on a vast scale.

Human suffering on a mass scale seems like an exaggeration. That language is more suited to something like genocide, slavery, famine, war, etc.

The thing about cultural norms is that they, inherently, impose certain lifestyles on the populace. You can't promote a cultural norm that assigns certain roles to the sexes without hurting people who don't fit into those roles. Feminism pushes against those imposed roles, but it does not push against those who willing choose those roles.

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