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New Lawsuit Tells of 16-Year-Old Boy Allegedly Forced By County Officials to Take Estrogen as Behavior Control “Medication”

qemist

July 16, 2020
1807 upvotes
/r/MensRights
https://witnessla.com/new-lawsuit-tells-of-16-yr-old-boy-allegedly-forced-by-probation-officials-to-take-estrogen-as-medication-to-control-his-behavior/
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Title New Lawsuit Tells of 16-Year-Old Boy Allegedly Forced By County Officials to Take Estrogen as Behavior Control “Medication”
Author

qemist

Upvotes 1807
Comments 190
Date July 16, 2020 8:49 AM UTC
(6 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/hs652j/new_lawsuit_tells_of_16yearold_boy_allegedly/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/new-lawsuit-tells-of-16-year-old-boy-allegedly.847669
https://theredarchive.com/post/847669
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Comments

[–]TXJohn83 327 points328 points329 points 6 years ago (43 children) | Copy Link

It reminds me of the 1960's when they use to use electro shock for everything.

[–]thefudmaster 151 points152 points153 points 6 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Even worse was lobotomies for people with mental illness in the late 1800s - early to mid 1900s.

[–]gamessuck00 29 points30 points31 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

This is no different, these treatments were highly flawed in the 60s and currents were run through these patients that killed targeted and non targeted sectors of the patient’s brain!

They’ve gotten better (in intent and procedure) with the goal being stimulating sections of the brain by providing currents at action potential ranges, but ask Carrie Fisher if they were successful.

Regardless, you’ve got a lot of monsters working on the correctional side of the law; in the courtrooms and in the oversight counsel of probation/social officers and psychologist/psychiatrists. These things need a higher food chain and need medical approval across the board.

Like it or not, a felon is a captive- they are under total supervision and often don’t get a say in much. Experimenting on them doesn’t sound ethical in any universe.

[–]thefudmaster 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Hit the nail on the head. Happy cake day by the way.

[–]thefudmaster 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Hit the nail on the head. Happy cake day by the way.

[–]gamessuck00 -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

Imagine not knowing both: the meaning of cake day and when you opened your reddit account.

🙏 thank you.

Edit: Oof

[–]thefudmaster 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Huh?

[–]MinotaurBomber 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Your comment makes zero sense.

[–]gamessuck00 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I did not know what cake day was....

[–]TXJohn83 64 points65 points66 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The list could go on and on of all of the sick things that have been done over time to "treat" mental illness.

[–]Devidose 15 points16 points17 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

lobotomies for people with mental illness in the late 1800s - early to mid 1900s

For those who want a fairly high profile example of this still happening in the mid 1990s, here's JFK's sister who was lobotomised at the age of 23 in 1941.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Kennedy

The procedure failed, leaving Kennedy permanently incapacitated and rendering her unable to speak intelligibly. Kennedy spent most of the rest of her life being cared for at St. Coletta, an institution in Jefferson, Wisconsin

She died in 2005.

[–]Decent_Priority 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It’s interesting that her father would later suffer a stroke that made him unable to speak and more or less essentially retarded as well.

You could say what goes around comes around. He got exactly what his daughter did. His own punishment.

Reading that Wikipedia article was fucking disgusting.

[+]Vindaloo-brication0 points 6 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Sometimes I dream about bringing back the lobotomy, imagine if we could just lobotomize all the feminists and finally get some peace and quiet.

[–]thefudmaster 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep. That’s why a life without a wife is the best option.

[–]redozk 47 points48 points49 points 6 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

Or in the early 20th century where homosexuals were seen as criminals and had their behavior regulated by chemicals to “fix” them.

[–]bebasw 33 points34 points35 points 6 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

And chemical castration. And even more electroshock

[–]redozk 9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

Yeah they use that against sex offenders in some states I believe. It’s cruel as it reduces their levels of testosterone

[–]Amazing_Rope_Police 37 points38 points39 points 6 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

Now imagine they were inducing permanent infertility in violent female prisoners, and watch the protests ensue...

Criminal or not, you have a right to not be forced into hormone treatment. That's bullshit.

[–]redozk 9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

While the justice system isn’t perfect and sexual predators are criminals, I agree that they shouldn’t have their manhood violated. We have an amendment against such government practices but no one uses that shit anymore. This can go deeper into a political sense like “rape culture” and all that but I’d rather preserve our brain cells.

[+]emokantu -9 points-8 points-7 points 6 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I don't think Chemical Castration is cruel. It is usually part of your release on "good time" for sex offenses. It reduces the chance that they will offend again. I think if there was a chemical way to compel people not to be violent, it would be okay to use on people who commit violent crimes.

That being said, giving the gov that power is scary, not that very many people are ever actually worried about that.

I'm glad they started executing pedophiles again federally

[–]Amazing_Rope_Police 9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I think if there was a chemical way to compel people not to be violent, it would be okay to use on people who commit violent crimes.

First of all, how far does that go? Because the problem with these controversial revolutionary ideas isn't how they could work - it's how they could go wrong.

With massive levels of overpolicing everywhere, police brutality, mental institutions abusing their rights for involuntary confinement to drug and abuse patients, cops injecting people with ketamine to make them more compliant, and school teachers getting adderal for little kids - mostly boys, mind you - I wouldn't trust the state with the right to putting behaviour-altering substances in anyone's body. Let's see a typical MRA grievance. Wife abuses you, calls the cops on you. Now the cops don't just arrest you - they inject you with an agent that makes you more compliant, and you of course go along with their unjust arrest. You don't appeal, because that would not be compliwnt. You buckle at the smallest pressure. Divorce, restraining order. Now you live in a shack in the outskirts of town. You have an ankle bracelet that injects you with a drug that makes you compliant whenever it senses your aggression levels increase. Now your life is in ruins - but see? We are building a better society!

And secondly - this isnkt JUST about making prisoners not violent. It's about castrating them. For reference - this is no different than Saudi-Arabia cutting off the hands of thieves. It's a gross violation of bodily autonomy.

[–]TheGarbageGang 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I read this with the evil morty theme playing in my headphones. Man, the feels. There is a reason people usually castrate dogs.

[–]Amazing_Rope_Police 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Accidentally I am against the castration of dogs.

BTW nowadays they usually perform vasectomies instead of castration, especially because you don't mess with the hormonal system of a creature. Same applies to humans. Even mandatory vasectomy sounds better than chemical castration. That's just horrible.

[–]emokantu -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

"And secondly - this isnkt JUST about making prisoners not violent. It's about castrating them. For reference - this is no different than Saudi-Arabia cutting off the hands of thieves. It's a gross violation of bodily autonomy."

I think the fact that it's reversible is a pretty large difference between these two, first of all

Second of all, I somewhat agree, the government is not trustworthy of this power. But we are not only talking about the governments ability to be trusted with this power, but also about if this power is inherently immoral, which I argue that it is not. I think it's an excellent middleground solution in which we don't have to execute sick fucks, and can, hopefully, rehabilitate them in a way that will actually prevent reoffending.

"With massive levels of overpolicing everywhere, police brutality, mental institutions abusing their rights for involuntary confinement to drug and abuse patients, cops injecting people with ketamine to make them more compliant"

None of those things are remotely commonplace, let's be realistic. Do you really think cops carry ketamine and give it to people to make them listen to them as a common tactic?

" I wouldn't trust the state with the right to putting behaviour-altering substances in anyone's body. Let's see a typical MRA grievance."

Me either. But I am okay with the concept of allowing criminals who should otherwise get locked up and the key thrown away, getting a voluntary chance to return to society, and losing the danger of them recommitting

[–]Amazing_Rope_Police -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I think the fact that it's reversible is a pretty large difference between these two, first of all

Chemical castration is not reversible, you... Stupid person. It permanently destroys your natural endocrine system and your capacity to produce sperms. Even simple male contraceptives left users infertile and with erectile dysfunction for 3 years, and those are just contraceptives, not castration.

None of those things are remotely commonplace,

1) yes they are, you just don't know about them.

2) irrelevant. One is too many.

Do you really think cops carry ketamine and give it to people to make them listen to them as a common tactic?

Well, Elijah McCain died (innocently) because cops ordered paramedics to give him ketamine (despite being diabetic), and the paramedics and the cops both said this is standard procedure. So yes, this is common. Or the police is lying, in which case it's even worse.

getting a voluntary chance to return to society, and losing the danger of them recommitting

1) you never said voluntary

2) There are a fuckton of substances that can help someone be less aggressive without ruining their endocrine system. This is human experimentation, with the excuse that these are only criminals.

[–]redozk 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah it’s all about being careful with the state and what it’s up to. I don’t mind executions on violent criminals or repeat sexual offenders, which is a debate all on its own, but injecting people to prevent crimes may not be cruel, but it is unusual . That being said, preventing these crimes would help if we understood the psychological aspects of why someone would do it and getting them the help they need. But nah, our government is content on injecting chemicals to chemically castrate and ethically kill.

[–]TheGarbageGang 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I would rather be shot by a firing squad then strapped down and injected with shit.

[–]TIMPA9678 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/03/07/469478098/the-supreme-court-ruling-that-led-to-70-000-forced-sterilizations#:~:text=In%201927%2C%20the%20U.S.%20Supreme,deemed%20to%20be%20%22feebleminded.%22

Let's not make this a men vs women thing.

[–]Amazing_Rope_Police 10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

In 1927,

Not to be a dick - but this was a century ago. Not only that - it was BEFORE everyone had to face the fact that eugenics is evil - arguably Hitler's greatest achievement is inadvertantly ridding this world of eugenics, at least for a short amount of time by setting the worst of examples imaginable.

So yeah. I agree that this whole thing is just disgusting, and every time I read about it... I'm gonna be honest here - if a mod sees this, please just message me to edit this comment instead of banning me -, I want to flay the person alive who advocates for any level of eugenics or artificial infertilization. It makes me go berzerk. I've almost flipped the table on someone at one point because she wasn't willing to condemn the evils of this idea. So you can understand that I feel very strongly about this subject, and the reminder that it is practiced to this day just fucking ruined my day.

That being said I don't see why we can't admit that this is only legal because it is done to men. If a sentence to chemically sterilize a woman for whatever crime was anounced today, there would be RIOTS. Heads would fall. The law would be changed almost immediately - for women, that is. For men it would stay.

[–]TheGarbageGang 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

How can someone be for chemical castration? It’s fucking sick.

[–]techtesh 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The westen world of eugenics

I am pretty sure china has super soldier programs going on

[–]Amazing_Rope_Police 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Who cares? No amount of super soldiers are worth stooping to China's level. Not to mention it's worthless - guns kill you no matter how tough you are, and special ops guys are already on Adderal and steroids, so genetics takes a backseat.

[–]techtesh -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You think china wont give these super soldiers aderall and steroids... Its an arms race where one side is acrively hindering itself and other is ready to lie cheat and steal, and if my math is correct only one side can win

[–]Lyceq 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

60's? Try 2020. FDA just a couple of month's ago banned it for behavior therapy, as used by the Judge Rotenberg Center.

https://www.masslive.com/news/2020/03/after-fda-bans-judge-rotenberg-center-from-using-electric-shock-devices-advocates-seek-public-apology-reparations.html

[–]Mynameisbondnotjames 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

ECT is a widely misunderstood treatment. It is one of the most efficient treatments for refractory depression, psychosis, and catatonia. It also has relatively few side effects and is safe in pregnancy.

Unfortunately, it was vilified by the media in the mid 1950's and now requires one to jump through many hoops in order for insurance to cover it. As a result many who cannot afford the treatment out of pocket cannot receive it when needed.

EDIT: I would like to add that it is done under general anesthesia and is nothing like you may have seen in the movies.

[–]vintologi_se 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The evidence in favor of it isn't that great

https://vintologi.com/posts/436

[–]TXJohn83 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And estrogen is a great treatment for gender dysphoria(MTF cases), but that is not what they are using it for.

[–]YetAnotherCommenter 253 points254 points255 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

If this is true this is utterly frightening.

[–]Dr_Golduck 26 points27 points28 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Although this is worse, due to forced medication on a child.

This is only slightly different than a parent forcing psychotropic medication on a child.

This IS frightening, I agree. The UN already believes the approach to mental health needs to change.

https://www.madinamerica.com/2017/06/united-nations-report-calls-revolution-mental-health-care/

This is an example of a dangerous doctor. This is not much different than a doctor telling a parent that powerful psychotropic medications will "fix" or "cure" their children's behavioral problems. Alcohol and drug use on a developing brain have been studied for quite some time. Relying on an outside source for mood regulation (agonists, antagonistic, reuptske inhibitors, etc) reduces the brains ability to regulate naturally bc it relies on an outside source. Whether you get drugs from a doctor, a street entrepreneur, or grown naturally, they affect the developing brain in the same way.

[–]TXJohn83 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Seems to be

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-15/teenage-boy-was-given-estrogen-developed-breast-tissue-while-in-l-a-county-juvenile-hall-lawsuit-alleges

[–]akihonj 180 points181 points182 points 6 years ago (45 children) | Copy Link

Did anybody spot the term oppositional defiance disorder, psychologist speak for the kid refused to cooperate with us.

Well guess what, that can easily apply to 9/10 kids walking the earth today.

How the hell does this kind of thing get to be allowed.

[–]Considered_Dissent 78 points79 points80 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

We told him to voluntarily take the estrogen. He refused. The prescription to this severe behavioral problem is for him to take the exact same estrogen involuntarily.

[–]akihonj 29 points30 points31 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly and that's not considered fucked up.

[–]troubledtimez 80 points81 points82 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

unchecked pink haired agendas on campus that eventually spills out into the real world.

[–]MC_AnselAdams 21 points22 points23 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"But it's not like they have real power or anything! It's rich white men that have all the power and literally nobody else has power over men"

[–]GavishX -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Any trans activist can and will tell you that forcing a kid to take hormones is wrong. Are you actually deluded?

[–]troubledtimez 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

i think you are the one that is deluded if you think what i wrote in any way supports forcing the kids to take hormones. In fact i made fun of their whole agenda and movement by calling them pink hairs. You my friend are likely an idiot. I am sorry to have to break the news to you.

[–]GavishX 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah case and point. You are deluded into thinking that any trans activist wants to see this, and are being aggressively wrong even after I made that point. Get some help

[–]Dr_Golduck 10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Psychiatrist speak, they prescribed estrogen.

There is a Humongous diference, between Psychiatrists and psychologists.

Psychiatrists prescribe medication, psychologists do not.

You say how the hell does this thing get to be allowed? That's exactly how the Psychiatristric institution works. While this time it was done without anyone's permission, its only slightly different than when parents allow Psychiatrists to prescribe psychotropic medication to children, often which are then forced upon the children by their parents.

[–]LEGALinSCCCA 18 points19 points20 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Medical industrial complex. Get this phrase out there. There's multiple complexes that work hard to fuck you. The Corrections industry actually has quotas for inmates. Picture that old picture of a huge octopus with tentacles. Each one is an industry. And it's wrapped around us already. We won't be able to do anything about it. Protests are like buzzing flies to these industries. And they work behind the scenes to PROMOTE division and protests. The more infighting, the less we focus on them. Burn it down and rebuild.

[–]topsecreteltee 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

ODD isn’t just a child that doesn’t listen. It is much much worse than that.

ODD is one of a collection of softer diagnoses for children who are beginning to exhibit Socio/psychopathological behaviors. Those diagnoses requires a developed mind as part of the criteria. Since children are still developing, you can’t diagnose a child with them. Take that “undesirable” behavior, turn it up to 11, and then give it some meth.

My 10 year old daughter is being evaluated for it next month. She’s been inexplicably violent and manipulative to the extent of her ability since she was 3. In preschool she beat another child with a plastic doll house. It’s been a long any exhausting series of experts, counseling, psychiatrists, and even diagnostic imaging. ODD isn’t something they throw around, if it came up, there’s a lot more going on here.

[–]TheGarbageGang 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Isn’t that just human nature?

[+]Korinthe -22 points-21 points-20 points 6 years ago* (33 children) | Copy Link

I can wholeheartedly assure you that Oppositional Defiance Disorder (ODD) is absolutely not as you described it here.

It is not to be written off as psychologist speak and neither can it be applied to 9/10 kids walking the earth today. This is incredibly ignorant.

I've spent the last 15 years working in schools with children with behavioural difficulties. I myself am diagnosed with Autism, as is my eldest child. My entire life consists of neurodiversity, both at home and in my professional life.

We are currently seeking a diagnosis with my middle child who is showing signs that she may also be on the Spectrum. However, it is early days and it has been suggested to us that she may also have ODD.

I've worked in childcare since I was 17. I can promise you that my Daughter's behaviour is quite extreme and certainly not something I have experienced whilst working with children for the past decade and a half. And believe you me, I have seen my fair share of 'naughty' and / or defiant children in my time!

It very much reminds me of Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) as that is the closest I have come to behaviourally.

Please educate yourself before giving such strongly worded opinions, it is highly offensive to those of thus who is living this life.

[–]SpiritofJames 11 points12 points13 points 6 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

What does autism have to do with "ODD"?

[–]ellessidil 9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

High comorbidity rate of ODD for folks who have Autism or ADHD.

[+]SpiritofJames -6 points-5 points-4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

So?

[–]ellessidil 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What does autism have to do with "ODD"?

You asked what one has to do with the other, I provided context explaining why one might discuss Autism during a conversation about ODD.

[+]Korinthe -9 points-8 points-7 points 6 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

It is to highlight that I am well versed and knowledgeable in the realms of neurodiversity. I am currently studying to become a Special Education Needs Co-ordinator.

The behavioural traits which make up ODD are very similar to PDA, which in itself is an offshoot of Autism.

ODD is also very similar to ADHD.

ADHD and Autism are comorbid and are usually found together.

As such, ODD is extremely similar to all three of these conditions and it wouldn't surprise me as the research matures that we find it is also comorbid.

[–]SpiritofJames 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

Sorry but nothing you're saying actually shows you have any expertise regarding ODD, how it's diagnosed, the potential for misdiagnosis, or the underlying problems with the entire practice of psychiatry. Being diagnosed as Autistic, one of the few more clearly defined and reliable categories, does not grant someone that expertise. Neither does working in the system. In fact being in the system may make it difficult or impossible to see outside it, to see where it malfunctions.

[+]Korinthe -8 points-7 points-6 points 6 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

Reading comprehension isn't your thing is it.

[–]SpiritofJames 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

It most certainly is. I'm still waiting for evidence that you have any more expertise than a random person on this specific topic.

[+]Korinthe -6 points-5 points-4 points 6 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

If your only take away from what I've said is that my expertise comes from the fact that I am autistic then I can't really help you.

[–]SpiritofJames 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

That and your work experience in education, which again may be worse for objectivity on this question, are the only substantive supports you've provided for your claims.

[–]Korinthe -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Ah yes, when experience has an inverse affect on knowledge. That's obviously how this works!

15 years is longer than most careers these days, you know.

[–]akihonj 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Hum I just find it funny that only 20 years ago parents were actually parenting their kids not looking for the next available drug to turn busy curious children into iPad zombies. Hey ho society gets the children and politicians it deserves.

[–]Korinthe -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Holy fucking shit.

20 years ago people like me still existed. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 29 years old.

It's not that we didn't exist, or that our parents were actually parenting us. It's that research and public awareness had not caught up yet.

[–]akihonj 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Holly fucking shit, as if I give a fuck, 20 years ago people got on with being parents, not looking to drug their kids not expecting the state to assist in drugging their kids.

I don't give a flying fuck what you claim you got what you claim your kid has, it makes no difference to me, what does matter is how quickly you and everyone else runs to a diagnosis of a mental disorder when most cases it's got nothing to do with any form of mental disorders and everything to do with lazy shit people being allowed to have kids when half of the time they should never have been born themselves.

Now, do you want to try to be civil or do you really want to go dirty because trust me on this, you'll come out damaged not me.

[–]AnEnemyStand99 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Well, I think you both have points actually.

I believe not everything someone does should be assumed to be some sort of mental illness like it so often is today. I do think metal illness awareness is incredibly important but mental illness is also not as common as people want to believe. Just because someone likes things more organized than most and seem to have very strict moral codes does not always mean they have OCD for example.

However, I also believe that mental illness was only considered an important and an actual illness and treated accordingly relatively recently and that it's important that people are able to reliably get diagnosed and properly treated for a mental illness they possess.

Basically, my point is that we shouldn't just diagnose everyone with a mental illness but mental illness should still be treated seriously and now that mental illnesses are recognized as, well, illnesses, should be treated as such.

[–]Korinthe 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

If I may.

It was a big decision whether or not get my son officially diagnosed. Having a diagnosis doesn't change his behaviour, and it certainly doesn't change him as a person. The negative affects of having a label are well documented.

Having spent most of my time working in a Primary School (for those outside of the UK, that is children aged 5-11 roughly) I have referred many children. Because of their age, we are often the first people to pick up on behaviours which lie outside the norm (something which ODD does, and why you can't say that 9/10 children can have it). This process has us work very closely with families in order to provide context. Often times children who are being referred for a diagnosis of some kind only show their behaviours within certain environments so it is important to get as much information on how they are both at home and at school.

Getting a diagnosis isn't always the right choice for the child or their family. One of my wife's closest friends is one such example where their eldest son clearly has ADHD (and would achieve a diagnosis) but knowing him and the family - their mentalities on things and the likes, the best decision for them was not to seek a diagnosis. And that is fine too.

The reason we went through with our sons diagnosis was because we recognise that it doesn't change him, but it does change how he gets to exist in this world. Having an official diagnosis means that his struggles (in UK law this is) change from being an impairment to a disability and as such he is fully protected under the Equalities and Disability act.

What this means in real terms is that his support for school can not be removed, and must meet his needs. This will follow him throughout life, into university (if he chooses) and beyond into employment.

[–]AnEnemyStand99 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for sharing your story. I always appreciate hearing about this stuff from a different perspective. I definitely don't think you should be forced to be diagnosed but I do think it can be beneficial. Living in Canada I too benefit from the disability act due to my diagnosed mental illness.

[–]Korinthe -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You need help.

[–]GrislyMedic -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

20 years ago they were throwing Ritalin at kids to get them to quit bothering their parents with their existence.

[+]qemist2 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (15 children) | Copy Link

Unverified accusation, but disturbing.

[–]N19864 64 points65 points66 points 6 years ago* (14 children) | Copy Link

Lawsuit: https://witnessla.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Estrogen-complaint-Wesley-G-Ouchi.pdf

[–]Honokeman 15 points16 points17 points 6 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

That the complaint exists is not in question. The unverified part is whether the complaint is accurate.

I'd believe that juvenile detention facilities have a wide berth in deciding medical care for minors in their facilities in their role as legal guardian. However, as written this does not appear to be a standard, best practice treatment, and experimenting on prisoners in general is tricky from a medical ethics standpoint from the power dynamics alone, only magnified if the prisoner is a minor.

If the complaint is accurate, this could result in the doctors involved losing their licenses. I'll be watching this case with interest.

[–]SquirmyBurrito 11 points12 points13 points 6 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Experimenting on prisoners should be illegal if it isn't already.

[+]Honokeman -7 points-6 points-5 points 6 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I think it's possible to ethically do experiments with prisoners mostly by just following standard medical research ethics (informed consent, ability to withdraw at any time, etc.). I think all you would need to add would be A) the researchers need to be entirely independent of the prison system, and B) the potential research participants are given free access to lawyers specialising in medical law.

Still, the power dynamics make this non-ideal, and if minors are involved that would necessitate even greater scrutiny. Unless the experiment specifically relates to being in prison I would avoid it.

[–]thatusenameistaken 13 points14 points15 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I think it's possible to ethically do experiments with prisoners

No. Just no. The power imbalance is insurmountable. No matter how much you try to justify it or cloak it, you're experimenting on people who probably wouldn't make that choice if they were free.

[–]Honokeman -5 points-4 points-3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I think the power imbalance between a doctor and a patient is only marginally smaller than between a doctor and a patient who happens to be a prisoner. Extra precautions need to be taken, yes, but I don't think allowing prisoners to participate in medical trials should be taken off the table entirely.

For example: consider a prisoner with cancer. They happen to fit the profile for someone who could be benefit from an experimental new treatment. I think if the prisoner is able to give informed consent, which in this case I think can probably only be given with access to a lawyer, I don't think they should be excluded from the trial solely for being a prisoner.

[–]thatusenameistaken 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Except it's not the power imbalance of doctor and prisoner I'm talking about.

It's doctor and the entire prison infrastructure on one side, and the prisoner on the other.

[–]SquirmyBurrito -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

No, unless they have the full consent of each prisoner, that shit should be illegal. Prisons are corrupt enough as is.

Forgive me, I'm fucking dumb.

[–]Honokeman 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

... that's what I said?

[–]SquirmyBurrito -5 points-4 points-3 points 6 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

No, you said give them lawyers.

[–]Honokeman 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

And informed consent, part of standard medical ethics.

[–]SquirmyBurrito -2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

You didn't say anything about consent.

[–]Inninja_3 40 points41 points42 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

They should burn in hell

[–]N19864 23 points24 points25 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

With the policy makers who accepted this.

[–]Raunchy_Potato 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And every citizen who voted for their ideology.

[–]Town-Sound123 16 points17 points18 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

He’s a teenager wouldn’t this mess his puberty?

[–]isodeslk 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

He’s a teenager wouldn’t this mess his puberty?

If all they gave him was estradiol, and only for 13 days, then no. It takes a substantial amount of time for these drugs to have permanent affects on the body's fertility & hormone production. By stopping the treatment when he did, his testes would have gone back to producing normal (for him) levels of testosterone.

[–]Town-Sound123 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh ok.

[–]NapoleonBonaparte69 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I guess, effect of estrogen pills fade away once you stop taking pills

[–]ThatNetori 9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

not if you took it mid-puberty

[–]Superdogs5454 10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah this kid is gonna have effects such as widened hips, increased breast fat storage (manboobs), and probably won’t grow as tall as he would if he wasn’t forced to take estrogen. I’d imagine some brain structure changes as well since the “treatment” took place when the brain is in a stage of development.

[–]Town-Sound123 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh that’s going to effect his mental health. By this I mean he will be shorter and have more of a feminine body which I’m guessing he would not want.

[–]isodeslk 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah this kid is gonna have effects such as widened hips, increased breast fat storage (manboobs), and probably won’t grow as tall as he would if he wasn’t forced to take estrogen.

Not from 13 days of doses. Hip growth requires sustained high levels of estrogen for months to years to really kick in. By stopping the treatment, his testes would have gone back to producing testosterone and there'd be no natural estrogen being produced in his body by itself on the scale necessary to go that far with those kind of changes.

The big deal with the breast growth isn't fat its the mammary glands themselves (that's why the article and lawsuit talks about surgery). Any locations where fat went due to the 13 days will reverse itself from testosterone quite quickly and easily, but the mammary tissue can only be removed surgically.

But, it also takes a while for the mammary tissue to grow. 13 days really isn't enough. With MtF HRT that's more like a 1-3 months in process before it becomes noticeable.

However, that's assuming 1- he was really only dosed with estradiol, and 2- only for 13 days.

[–]_Lord_Meme_ 31 points32 points33 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Disgusting...

[–]XasthurianHorror 27 points28 points29 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I lack the words to express how vile that is.

[–]autotldr 24 points25 points26 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 91%. (I'm a bot)


Over the weekend, WitnessLA received a copy of a newly-filed complaint against LA County, which described a teenage boy who was in one of probation's juvenile halls when he was allegedly forced against his will, and without his parent's knowledge, into an extremely unusual form of "Treatment," by various medical professionals who work inside probation's youth facilities.

In the deeply-researched "Los Angeles County Probation Outcomes Report" of 2015, lead author Dr. Denise Herz, and her co-authors, found that 92 percent the kids in LA County Probation's care had some kind of mental health diagnosis out of the American Psychiatric Associations Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

UCLA's Dr. Jorja Leap, who was part of the planning for the POC, and one of the co-authors of the deeply researched LA County Probation Governance Report, was very disturbed by the implications of the new lawsuit.


Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Probation#1 Javier#2 County#3 Treatment#4 Oversight#5

[–]point5_ 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Good bot

[–]PorcupinePower 30 points31 points32 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Wait correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't estrogen make you more sensitive? If so, this doesn't even make any sense

[–]duhhhh 21 points22 points23 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

More emotional. Think PMSing all the time.

[–]Kryto-Kun 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

more fat, emotional & anxious

[–]psilorder 16 points17 points18 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I guess sensitive is fine as long as you are obedient.

[–]AnonThrowaway2245 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Estrogen has an effect on emotions and can make some people more sensitive.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points16 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

nooo.. just nooooo, that cant be legal, thats like forcing someone to take drugs

[–]vicsj 14 points15 points16 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Remember when they used to chemically castrate gay men some decades ago? Yeah, this doesn't feel far off. Scary.

[–]GavishX 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah it’s pretty much the same thing. Horrifying in every way

[–]AnonThrowaway2245 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This reminded me of the David Reimer situation. Although this man was actually forced to live as a woman(although different reason and he didn't know until he got older). Super sick shit.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

[–]jinladen040 25 points26 points27 points 6 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Of course this is in California, one of the most bass ackwards states whose governor isn't worth a shit. I'm sure the taxpayers of California would love to know that they're paying for unneeded hormone treatments to unsuspecting young boys.

This is a major issue, and hopefully the family can sue the shit out of the state. How any Doctor can ethically prescrjbe hormone treatment and lie about whats it for should have thwir license revoked, period. And all too often people in the criminal justice system are overlooked with the out of sight, our of mind mentality.

Also highlights one of my major gripes with medicine, literally anyone one of us can be diagnosed under an Umbrella term like ODD (Oppositional Defiance Disorder). Sounds like a term invented by Big Brother that conveniently anyone can fall under and therefore need treatment for.

[–]Honokeman 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I think this article over emphasises the mood disorders. Prisons in general, and especially juvenile detention centers, are biased samples. Kids with mood disorders, especially ODD, are more likely to end up in juvie.

ODD has a specific definition in the DSM, it's not an umbrella term that could be applied to anyone. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519712/table/ch3.t14/

Also, the article doesn't specify what percent are diagnosed with ODD, just that a large percent are diagnosed with mood disorders. That's unsurprising: being in a prison environment is likely to cause anxiety and depression.

I agree, though, that if the complaint is accurate the only reasonable course of action is for the doctors in question to lose their licenses'.

[–]SchalaZeal01 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Kids with mood disorders, especially ODD, are more likely to end up in juvie.

Which means someone in the prison system could easily overdiagnose and not be spotted, ever. Just people they don't like, or personal torture fetish. There is a reason there's been lots of abuse in the mental illness system: the victims of mistreatment wouldn't be believed, because some truly do make up stuff.

It's also why female sexual predators in kindergarten and daycares and babysitting children are barely ever spotted, unless caught red-handed. People (even fucking specialists in the field) assume its not even possible for women to be evil in that way, or even have sexual desires for children. Therefore, never suspected. Free playground for predators, just need the right plumbing.

[–]PhilanderingWalrus 13 points14 points15 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is the equivalent of neutering pets to control their behaviours. Fucking disgusting both ways. Even more so in human. The fuck is wrong with this world.

[–]Auntie_Hero 10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

Well, as the world becomes increasingly geared toward women only, we're going to keep seeing masculinity framed as a disease to be "cured"

[–]Merkins75 -12 points-11 points-10 points 6 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

He said, Cheeto dust covered fingers staining his keyboard.

[–]Auntie_Hero 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Uh, you say that like the actual article isn't saying exactly what I just said.

[–]Merkins75 -11 points-10 points-9 points 6 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

A single doctor in a juvenile detention center decides to treat a single patirnt with estrogen and your making it out like every doctor is going to do the same thing to all male patients.

[–]Auntie_Hero 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

It. Happened.

[–]Merkins75 -8 points-7 points-6 points 6 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, and the doctor responsible is currently under a lot of shit for it. And again its a single instance of this happening, not a systematic purge of all men like your trying to frame it.

[–]Auntie_Hero 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, and the doctor responsible is currently under a lot of shit for it.

Not enough to stop the practice.

And again its a single instance of this happening

Correction: its a single instance of this practice making the news.

[–]Merkins75 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

What the doctor did was medical battery and he could lose his license over it, it's pretty safe to assume theirs not some big conspiracy to feminize kids in juvy.

[–]Auntie_Hero 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

What the doctor did was medical battery and he could lose his license over it

Show me the legal action against him.

theirs not some big conspiracy to feminize kids in juvy.

Its not just in jails. Its all of society.

[–]Merkins75 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The files for the claim against the doctor were attached to the article, just look at them yourself, maybe you could even be bothered enough to read it. And if you actually read that entire article you linked and actually came to the conclusion it's saying people want to feminize boys your a moron.

[–]Raunchy_Potato 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Quick question, how many girls get hormones forcibly pumped into them when they get sent to jail?

Is it zero?

Oh look at that, it is zero.

The fact that she even THOUGHT it would be acceptable is sign enough that the way the medical community views boys needs to change. The fact that she was ABLE TO GET APPROVAL TO DO IT means that many more doctors than just her share her evil views.

I know you guys love pumping hormones into underage children, but that's one of the things that makes the rest of us hate you.

[–]Merkins75 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Ok theirs a lot of stupid to unpack here so...

  1. Your using an anomaly In the data to justify your outlandish conspiracies

  2. The doctor was male not female and I'm guessing you made that mistake because the journalists image is the thumbnail and you didn't actually read the article

  3. He didn't get permission to give him progesterone, he was in charge of giving the parents proper medical care and he was clearly not very good at it

  4. The only children that are being pumped full of hormones are trans kids who want hrt, and those "children" have to be at least 16 years old to even get hrt to begin with.

[–]Raunchy_Potato3 points 6 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Your using an anomaly In the data to justify your outlandish conspiracies

Funny how whenever something bad happens to a man, it's an "anomaly," but every time something bad happens to a woman it's "evidence of patriarchal discrimination."

He didn't get permission to give him progesterone, he was in charge of giving the parents proper medical care and he was clearly not very good at it

  • Javier was still uncomfortable with taking the mystery medication. At first, he said he would refuse to take it. Then reportedly, one of the medical staff told him he could not in fact refuse. Javier’s probation officer was also standing nearby when the conversation took place, and reiterated that Javier didn’t have a choice in the matter.

He had the permission of the state. This was sanctioned.

You are liar.

The only children that are being pumped full of hormones are trans kids who want hrt, and those "children" have to be at least 16 years old to even get hrt to begin with.

You lying little shit.

You are pumping CHILDREN full of sex-altering hormones and chopping their genitals off because

YOU. ARE. A. PEDOPHILE.

That's the only reason you'd want to mess with kids' genitals so badly.

[–]goodmod[M] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Do not call anyone a criminal unless they have been convicted in a court of law.

If you remove the offending word and reply here, I will restore your comment.

[–]Merkins75 -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

  1. When a single event happens to a single person of any race/gender/religion/whatever it's an anomaly, when it happens multiple times and you can correlate that data and actually study it then it's a proper datapoint.

  2. The probation officer is considered lower ranking the medical staff, he has to help them, it's literally his job.

  3. Sorry I didn't give you the legal minimum age for hrt in a COUNTRY I DONT FUCKING LIVE IN YOU DUMB SHIT.

  4. The fact you keep screaming liar and pedophile shows me you'd be just as intelligent without your head as you are with it.

P.s. you forgot to mention the part where I called you out for not actually reading the article

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm legitimately curious if you think you're actually accomplishing anything here. You're sperging out all over this subreddit, posting absolutely nothing of substance, and just trying to zing people with one-liners.

You trying to get a few crumbs of pussy by being a good boy male ally or something? Start respecting yourself.

[–]Merkins75 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

  1. Not a guy, but nice try tho

  2. I came to this sub thinking it would be about actual issues guy's face in the real world, like the increased suicide rate, issues with coming out about sexual assault, child custody usually being given to the female parent. Instead I found a bunch of neckbeards playing victim and creating outlandish conspiracies about how everyone's trying to feminize them.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is terrible. What a joke when actual transgender people who need estrogen/testosterone have to wait ages to get it.

What’s happening to that boy is dangerous and insane.

[–]Edmond-the-Great 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminist eugenics?

[–]Karissa36 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What the fuck!!! I was initially very skeptical about this news article. Mainly because it happened in California, and California is the only State that allows attorneys to graduate from non-ABA approved law schools. So I kind of expected, considering how crazy this seems, that I was going to find it was filed by a lawyer who had spent 7 years or more going to "law school" part time in a trailer. Another redditor in this thread helpfully gave me a link to the Complaint. So I could not only see the Complaint but also look up this lawyer's bona fides.

Holy shit! His lawyer is most definitely qualified and did not go to law school in California. Which means that he did graduate from an ABA accredited law school, and on top of that he has been recognized by his peers as kind of amazing, and also by no means is this his first round on the pony ride for defending civil rights. I mean like, and I say this as a lawyer, if I had to, I would hire this lawyer.

Which gets us back to WTF? I have spent decades suing doctors and hospitals for a living. There is really no way anywhere that this is the medical standard of care. One thing missing that I would have put in the Complaint, but I trust that lawyer to get it in there in discovery and trial. He does civil rights and not med mal. He will figure it out and get it in there eventually. You cannot reverse breast development. Once it happens it happens and there is no going back. Not without surgery.

[–]Considered_Dissent 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Pretty much the perfect demonstration of the fact that the modern school system treats boys like defective girls.

[–]Merkins75 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

He... Was in juvenile detention... Why are you making it about schools?

[–]Considered_Dissent 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Because like a true redditor at the time i made the comment I hadnt read the article and just assumed.

I cant say exactly why, probably some personal bias but also because the thumbnail screamed more education system teacher.

[–]Merkins75 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's the journalist that wrote the story. At least you admit your fault, some people on here are going as far as trying to call it a leftist conspiracy or the systematic eradication of men.

[–]grimview 11 points12 points13 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Students are numbers to schools, so the more services they can provide the more money the school gets. I was sentenced to 6 years of speech therapy. Schools are currently trying to replace Security (males dominated) with Child Services (female dominated).

Other Child Social Worker include these child abuses & imaginary diseases:

*1800- 1930's Orphan Train Movement used European children as replacement labors for African slaves

*1970's Hunting sexual predators by training children to make false accusation against parents, to justify taking kids away.

*1980's Gaslighting children with fears of global warming to reduce resistance to surrendering property to the state.

*1990's Drugging kids with Ritalin & Prozac to make kids customers for life

*2000's Misdiagnosing everything as autism to increase funding & give children a crippling mindset of over sensitivity, & customers for life.

*2010's Genital mutilation & castration, to decrease population & ensure eunuch loyalty; so that once again man, will continue the pride heritage of trans forming into victim women by wearing pretty white dresses & matching masks. As well as, you guessed it, customers for life!

[–]gjvnq1 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

*1980's Gaslighting children with fears of global warming to reduce resistance to surrendering property to the state.

Do you have a source for this?

[–]QuantSeven 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Wow. You have done some historical research for sure. I was denied access to specialized programs in elementary school; sounds like we both have been screwed over by public ed. I often joke that I went to a school for emotionally disturbed teachers.

Yah, fuck public ed.

[–]grimview 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Most people just don't see the pattern of abuse or understand the reasons. There's a lot more abuses then I list. My research is partly inspired by a quest to over come the imaginary diseases, as I continue to met more like me. Imagine if we held social workers to same level of criticism we hold police too, would people be demanding they be de-funded & removed?

You probably were not causing enough problems or due to limited resources they found someone else. I figure they need 5 days X number of class periods X number of therapist to maximize funding per social worker.

Luckily my mother criticized any feminine voice they tried to get me to talk in. Speech therapy is defined as showing understanding by being compliant. That plus the imaginary disease label of being "quiet", made me think I could not do sales jobs which is entry level to the career I wanted & now have. Instead I graduated at the top of my class, job less & like Ruth Batter Ginsburg, blamed rampant sexism. While Ruth became a teacher without any real world experience, I was sentenced, to traditional slave labor lifting heavy in warehouses, by female dominated temp agencies that kept the cushy office job for themselves. Like Ruth who when offered the job opportunity of a life time stated "I don't do tax cases;" I too refused a customer service opportunity that I latter begged to have. Funny thing is most men enjoy being paid to work out with their friends; however, people like me & Ruth are told were not suppose to want those jobs. Instead were suppose to change the world by becoming "emotionally disturbed teachers" that are a danger to children.

That said it depends on what the program is, as I'm sure there are some decent programs. What program did you miss out on or avoid being abused by?

[–]fogoticus 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What. The fuck.

[–]GavishX 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Wtf? They’re going to give this kid literal body dysphoria. This is actual phychological abuse, kids with anger and behavioral issues do NOT need to be pumped with hormones just to try and control them. It’s even worse that he’s started growing breasts and doesn’t have the option to say no. He’s going to be permanently scarred because of this

[–]notINGCOS 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

As a trans woman I find this truly disturbing. I can't tell you what a miserable experience it is to be stuck in the wrong body. It caused my to attempt suicide a bunch of times and I know of plenty of people it's literally killed.

However I don't think this story is true.

The story said the victim was administered only estrogen and that made them immediately grew brests which is not how HRT works.

The brain only has so many hormone receptors. In a male body they're already chocked full of testosterone. Adding estrogen on top won't make any changes.

It would be a more credible story if the estrogen was administered along side something to lower testosterone like an anti androgen or blocker, or if there weren't any physical changes but things definitely didn't happen as they're written here.

[–]notINGCOS 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Also It said he only took 13 doses which would be 6.5 days of treatment with no block so no. No you wouldn't grow brests after that.

[–]qemist[S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, we shouldn't just believe claims without question. A lawsuit is just a claim to a court.

Just giving anti-androgens would make more sense, or both if they wanted to feminize him. OTOH they do seem to be lapping this story up in /r/steroids

[–]duhhhh 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It would be a more credible story if the estrogen was administered along side something to lower testosterone like an anti androgen

Estrogen can drastically supress testosterone production within a few weeks. The pitutary produces LH to tell the testes to make testosterone based on levels of estrogen in the body. Sudden increases in estrogen will stop LH production because the brain thinks there is too much testosterone producing that estrogen. I was on Clomid for several months to block the estrogen from getting to my pituitary to restart normal levels of testosterone after a prolonged period of hypothyroidism.

This explains the hormone loop... https://healthbaazar.com/testosterone-negative-feedback-loop/

[–]Merkins75 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It was 6.5 days, not weeks.

[–]duhhhh -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And the testosterone drop lags, so a week later he has the testosterone levels of a 100 year old diabetic...rather than a teenage boy.

[–]galtthedestroyer 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

It didn't say he grew beasts. It said lumps started developing on his chest that the other boys noticed. Also the first three doses were intravenous.

[–]notINGCOS 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

And then he began to grow breasts.

Its a few paragraphs under the heading hormone storm

[–]galtthedestroyer 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Ffs, keep reading after that sentence.

[–]notINGCOS 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh. You know I actually stopped after that sentence becuase I was like 'well this is clearly bullshit'

[–]aabum 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Somebody needs to lose their ability to practice medicine, and enjoy a paid for vacation behind bars.

[–]Raunchy_Potato 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Nah, they should just all be forcibly injected with the opposite sex's hormones. Enough of them that their bodies start to irreversibly change.

[–]omnicidial 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The special needs teachers at my little brothers middle school were suggesting exactly this type of chemical castration for the kids in special education.

Encouraging parents and talking about how great the results had been.

[–]qemist[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Details? Let's not trade rumors. If this is a trend then we need to find out.

[–]omnicidial 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I reported it on Reddit when it happened. Not rumor. The school just "encouraged" it and said they'd found it limited the chance they'd get erections. It's in my post history someplace.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

WTF!

[–]strainer123 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Leftists are evil, lets be honest, they are monsters.

[–]Merkins75 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

What does this have to do with the left exactly?

[–]strainer123 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Its them pushing this absolute insanity, who do you think is pushing this agenda?!

[–]Merkins75 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Did... did you even look at the articles... even just a passing glance...

[–]strainer123 -2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes, estrogen to boys is being pushed by the post-modernist neo-marxist left, do you even fucking read.

[–]Merkins75 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

TIL only far right conspiracy theory's count as reading

[–]strainer123 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Facts are "far-right conspiracy theory", fucking hell... In this sub of all places, you're brainwashed by feminist ideology and you think you're on the side of men's rights, they openly defend feminization of boys and men, openly, and you call it "conspiracy theory".

[–]Pantsmanface -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Here you go from the LA Times.

And the actual complaint

Yes. It's the left that have been pushing that boys are broken girls for over a generation. Yes. It's the left that try to normalize gender as a social construct not in any way associated with biological sex. Yes. It's leftists that are going to be the ones trying to "fix" boys by making them girls. I do not see anything at all in the article or the court documents that suggest this was not motivated by intersectional feminist dogma. Whether or not he is a hardcore identitarian(Danny Wang is too generic a name. I cannot find him so his level of indoctrination is unknown right now). It'll be them that see this as a solution to all the sins their cult accuse men and boys of.

[–]Tsitika 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Amphetamines negatively impact testosterone, Ritalin etc

[–]-Kaleidoscope-Eyes- 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

As a female just passing through this subreddit for the first time... this story is disgusting:( the fact that “Javier” was lied to about what the estrogen was for, forced to take it, AND without parents consent? What the fuck did I just read... poor kid

[–]omegaphallic 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The people involved in this need to be arrested.

[–]Raunchy_Potato 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Nah, they just need some hormone treatments.

[–]Kryto-Kun 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

this is horrible.

estrogen & testosterone heavily acts on & effects your home structure during puberty. eg that estrogen will perminantly cause his hips to widen, cause gyno & change his face in a host of ways making him appear more feminine.

not to mind the mental damage done to him. the estrogen will cause his testosterone to plummet & cause him to become emotional mentally &/or depressed

[–]Merkins75 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

No it won't, those kinds of effects take years to develop and he was kind of already past the point where estrogen would really do anything to his skeletal structure.

Also the emotional changes only last as long as he's on progesterone, and considering he was only on it for around 6.5 days (and it takes 1-3 months for progesterone to effect your emotional state) he probably won't feel anything.

[–]Kryto-Kun 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

except that's bullshit.

many men using Clomid/nolva complain about emotional sides due to increased estrogen after a few days/week after use & it was noticed that the 16 year old had started to develop breasts during the experiment.

notable changes on bone structure are the only effects that take time to develop.

[–]Merkins75 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Except that's bullshit

Those medications you mentioned are estrogen BLOCKERS that help release overian stimulants, which do in fact create emotional changes but don't effect the body in any form and wasn't what he was given.

The kid was given progesterone, pure estrogen. Progesterone takes months to build up in the body to the point it effects the patients emotional state, just like every effect progesterone has on patients.

Also I highly doubt he actually started developing breasts. Breast growth is usually rather painful in most trans patients and breast growth at that rate would be a serious health risk. For all we know the kid just got some moobs.

[–]Kryto-Kun 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

yeah I'll agree with the breast growth. was more likely just minor fat redistribution + the kid complaining about minor breast pain/tightness due to the development.

you don't seem to know anything about serms though. an AI is an estrogen blocker, serms pretty much bind to specific areas like breast tissue reducing the amount of estrogen in the area while subsequently increasing estrogen activity elsewear.

[–]Toxic152 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Is there any way that I can help? I live outside the US and I can't bare acting passively.

[–]qemist[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Is there any way that I can help?

Rage post on reddit? Think local, post global!

Accusations in lawsuits aren't always true, so let's see what transpires.

[+]0nlyL0s3rsC3ns0r1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

just another example of the trans ideology being used by leftists to destroy the west's males

[–]GuardianCat0 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Fucking what? This has nothing to do with trans people, it’s about the fact they forced a kid to take warrigen when he didn’t want to

[–]Raunchy_Potato 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

To make him trans. Because trans people are good and cis men are bad.

Do you think people don't see what's happening?

[–]svFrannieC 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Idiot or a troll. Just block them and move on

[–]0nlyL0s3rsC3ns0r 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ask yourself why it is even acceptable to begin with that a human male is prescribed female hormones

[–]dcfighter14 -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So then are we gonna force girls to take testosterone as a strength altering “medication”

[–]DuAuk -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They've shown that birth control is mood altering, I'm not surprised. I'm very much against Court Ordered Treatment plans.

[–]Saishi-Ningen -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Rally time.

[–]CommunistAndy -5 points-4 points-3 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

They are withholding the info about the guy cause they realized how the fcked up

Basically he’s black and had high t so they decided to balance him back to normal with estrogen

Based and fcked up at the same time r/shitMRAsay

[+]mera1066 -7 points-6 points-5 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

"Forced" by who?

[–]Pantsmanface 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They didn't tell him what it was, lied that it was for a growth on his chest, told him if he didn't take it he'd not be released until he was 26 as his refusal would ruin his upcoming parole hearing.

[–]Merkins75 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

He was in juvenile detention, how about you actually read the article before asking stupid questions.

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