Is the Men's rights movement anti-feminism? [Serious]

epicstoner86 · 2015-06-20T02:05:57+00:00

Mens groups are not really anti feminist, if by feminist you mean equlity of the genders. Mens groups will often fight many feminist talking points such as wage gap & campus rape stats. Mens groups often show the flaws in the studies used by feminist. Mens groups also act to raise awareness of legal and social issues facing men. Masculinity is not seen as an issue with mens groups any more then feminity is an issue with feminist

thrway_1000 · 2015-06-20T02:02:15+00:00

Some are, some aren't. The Men's Rights movement is very individualistic. Many see feminism as the enemy and others see them as allies.

Question on this:

I do not support the idea of reinforcing masculinity and being proud of being masculine.

What's wrong with masculinity and being proud of ones masculinity? If you think there's a problem with gender roles then do you also think that femininity and being proud of ones femininity is wrong? If not, then maybe you have a skewed view of masculinity created by those wishing to demonize it.

Member12 · 2015-06-20T02:25:33+00:00

Technically, if you want to get serious; All feminists should be pro MRA and all MRA should be pro feminism.

However, we live in the real world and can clearly see from the radical feminism displayed in the modern wave is the epitome of condemning men as a whole.

So that is unfortunately not the case.

Neo_Techni · 2015-06-20T02:10:16+00:00

From what I've seen of feminist attacks on mras, its feminists that are anti mra.

SirSkeptic · 2015-06-20T02:49:48+00:00

It depends on your definition of feminism. There appear to be 3 general definitions of any group.

1. The dictionary definition. If you believe feminism is about equal rights and equal opportunities between genders then the MRM is feminist.

2. Popular Usage. The vast majority of the polled population don't identify with the word 'feminist' because they believe it means 'a woman who hates men'. In this case, yes, the MRM is anti-feminist.

3. Ascribed by it's actions. If there is a group called "Peace in our time" but they work towards world domination via war - then it's a military organization. If you judge feminism by the words and achievements of it's leaders then feminism is a violent hate group. One that disrupts peaceful assemblies, makes false accusations, spreads hate and lies and gets discriminatory and oppressive legislation enacted. If you go by this definition the, yes, the MRM is anti-feminist.

It's ironic that if you allow that anyone who calls themselves a feminist is a feminist but, if you go by the dictionary definition, the only people who actually adhere to those ideals call themselves anti-feminists.

atheist4thecause · 2015-06-20T02:33:31+00:00

There is a sizable anti-feminist crowd within the Men's Rights Movement, but you don't have to be an anti-feminist to be in the MRM. In fact, it doesn't even have to be that you are an MRA or not, feminist or not, etc.

Although people like me refer to ourselves as MRA's, it's actually not as clear as it sounds. I identify as an MRA because many of goals fall within the goals of most other MRA's, however, that doesn't mean I agree with every other MRA on every single issue. There is not a single platform.

An example of me disagreeing is that typically the MRA position on abortion would be something along the lines of men having a say, but I personally believe that men shouldn't have a say on the actual abortion. I believe in men having more of a say before and after the baby is born, but women should be able to decide whether they want the abortion or not. Now I'll probably get a lot of responses about this as I typically do, but I fight for what I believe is right, not because I believe something is an MRA position, feminist position, or any other kind of position. If you believe in what most other MRA's believe in on most issues, then it would be reasonable to consider yourself an MRA that has an unpopular opinion (within the MRA community) about one issue. There's nothing wrong with that.

I'll end with saying that I used to coincide with many of the reasonable ideas surrounding women's rights, but that's what I call it, women's rights. Feminism has really aligned itself in burying the MRA label along with good MRA ideas simply because of the label, and because of that, I realize that part of considering myself an MRA is defending myself from the attacks feminist throw my way for no other reason than I am an MRA. As you can imagine, it's pretty hard for me not to be at least somewhat anti-Feminist when they want to silence me simply for the the MRA label. Because I'm not a woman-hating rape apologist like I'm called on a regular basis from feminists, I use the term women's rights. Abortion, the right to be educated in areas of the world that don't allow it for women, the right for women to choose who they want to be in relationships with, and other things like this are rights that I believe fall within women's rights.

DaneWhitman · 2015-06-20T02:59:55+00:00

I can only speak for myself, and you'll probably get multiple differing opinions about this, but I'm not categorically anti-feminism. I just take issue with the most visible (and unfortunately influential) versions of feminism.

Extreme, bullhorn feminists (like the type you see disrupting gatherings to discuss men's issues) tend to be illiberal leftists who along with their often demonstrated disdain for free speech also have no regard for other basic rights like due process (which leads to support for college kangaroo courts whose mission is to deliver guilty verdicts rather than ascertain what actually happened) and equal protection under the law (which leads them to support proposals like exempting females criminals from prison). They also tend to have endless crackpot sociological theories to justify indifference to any men's issues, and frequently attempt to either blame men and men alone for these problems or to actually try to paint women as the real victims of sexism against men.

Pop feminism (think Jezebel, anything political from Cosmo, and similar garbage) can be very princessy and bratty. It really seems like many of it's adherents see feminism as a political justification for their own selfishness and self-centerdness. They are often very selective in their opinion of gender roles. I've come across more than a few articles with titles like 'You can be a feminist and still expect chivalry' and 'Just because I'm a feminist doesn't mean I want to be treated like a man'. They also tend to be the type of feminist that breaks out the 'lol male tears, virgin neckbeard who can't get laid' crap.

I wish there was a prominent faction of feminism that I could feel comfortable with. It would certainly be easier to work through that movement than to attempt to build an entirely new one. I know that there are reasonable, good-hearted feminists out there, but they don't seem to be very organized or visible. I personally support many of the stated goals of feminism: abortion rights, access to birth control, anti-domestic violence and sexual assault campaigns (although I wish these would be more mindful of both constitutional rights and the diversity of victims and perpetrators). Despite what sometimes seems like an excessive focus on anti-feminism, I know many MRM sympathizers who feel the same way. Honestly, I don't believe either the MRM (in it's current form) or the popular brands of feminism currently have a way forward for the issues that the men's rights movement espouses. The obvious answer would be for equality minded MRAs and feminists to come together in a mutually beneficial way, but I fear that's easier said than done, as it would require both groups to make a break with or marginalize the more polarizing figures in their respective movements. Ultimately, this would probably be the most productive long-term strategy for the MRM (to get their issues a fair hearing with the mainstream) and for moderate feminists (to prevent their own extremists from causing a backlash against feminism and the issues they support).

As far a masculinity is concerned, I couldn't care less about it. I absolutely hate the term "man up," and have never heard it used in any other context than attempting to get a man to do something that is contrary to his own best interests.

Tl; dr: (most of us) only take issue with the more "problematic" forms of feminism, not the stated beliefs of feminism.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2015-06-20T03:03:09+00:00

The MHRM is against the idea that "men-as-a-class oppress women-as-a-class" and also against the idea that "men-as-a-class are privileged above women-as-a-class" (we generally believe both sexes receive different sets of pros and cons and its unfair to say one has it 'better' than the other speaking in an overall sense).

Most of us are, at least subconsciously (but often consciously) methodological individualists who think treating men and women as "classes" in the first place is an error in itself.

But whether or not that makes us "anti-feminist" depends on what you mean by feminism; if you mean Dictionary Definition Feminism then we're actually more feminist than the established feminist movement. If by "feminist" you mean "opposed to traditional gender roles" then the MHRM is indeed more feminist than established feminism (since establishment feminism has degenerated into cafeteria gender-traditionalism).

xynomaster · 2015-06-20T03:03:39+00:00

I consider myself an MRA and don't consider myself anti-feminist.

My biggest concern with men's rights is with regards to "male disposability" - the idea that if a man can't protect himself, he doesn't deserve protection and can just die and people won't really bat an eye. The biggest example of this is conscription, which is why I support movements to make selective service gender neutral or, preferrably, remove it entirely. Another example is the world's relative silence in helping boys kidnapped or murdered in areas of conflict or violence as compared with their efforts to help girls.

The other is the ideas, like you point out, of believing that men can't be victims or that it's "funny" to joke about men and boys being sexually or physically assaulted by women. This can be seen in everything from sentencing disparity to Disney movies. It's pretty horrible actually.

There are a couple other issues but these are the big two in my opinion, and they really come down to the same problem - people have a hard time viewing men as weak and deserving of protection. That's what we need to change. In the sense that this aligns with removing gender roles, I agree with feminism.

That said, I don't believe there's anything wrong with being masculine if you want to. I believe that what feminists call "toxic masculinity" is bad, and that it becomes a problem if you're behavior is dangerous to others or you attempt to shame other people for not behaving how you think they should, but there's nothing wrong with being masculine yourself if that's what you want.

Hope that helps.

copsgonnacop · 2015-06-20T02:39:59+00:00

feminists want to impose laws that are favorable to women and unfavorable to men to redress their perceived social oppression of women. I think it is only natural that MRAs would oppose that. If that makes them anti-feminist, then I guess that answers your question.

alclarkey · 2015-06-20T03:26:02+00:00

I'm part of the MRA because I'm opposed to feminism. I'm not here looking for any kind of male superiority, but I would like to see an end to misandry/discrimination against men.

ahatabat · 2015-06-20T04:00:55+00:00

Define feminist. To the average person it means egalitarian. To the people with political clout it's used to push laws that are female supremacist.

solomute · 2015-06-20T08:23:22+00:00

Once upon a time, I was in an abusive relationship. There were no shelters for me, there was no police protection for me, there is no counseling for me. Much later, I learned that feminism is directly responsible for the laws and policies that discriminate against male victims of domestic violence here in the US. I also learned that I wasn't alone. Men actually make up 40% of domestic violence victims, and the reason that you don't hear about it is because feminists work to cover it up.

So, the answer to your question is: Fuck yes I'm anti-feminist.

That doesn't mean I am against gender equality. I have always believed strongly in eliminating gender roles and other discrimination. But when I talk to a feminist, roll up my sleeve and show them the scar on my arm, tell them the statistics I just told you, and they still refuse to admit that men need the same domestic violence resources that women do, well, I can't help but come to the conclusion that feminism is the wrong place to be if you want to advocate for gender equality.

Ultramegasaurus · 2015-06-20T08:29:22+00:00

The MRA is anti-feminism and must be. The "feminism helps men too/we only want equality!" talk can only be found in internet comment sections. Active feminists, the ones who have power and influence, systematically bully men and absolve women of responsibility and culpability.

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/374ixn/dear_moderate_feminists_you_dont_exist_xpost/

rg57 · 2015-06-20T14:21:37+00:00

Absolutely MRM is anti-feminist. It is not possible to be for equality, or even just for men's rights, without opposing defamatory smears like the "patriarchy", and the idea that masculinity is bad.

Nor is it possible to permit a system to claim to work for equality, when the results it produces put men at a disadvantage compared to women.

Also, any rights movement ought to be deeply interested in evidence and rational thought and due process. Feminism is corrosive to, or outright rejects, these things.

I'm not aware of a group called "Men's Liberation Movement".

iainmf · 2015-06-20T04:33:43+00:00

There's a bunch of feminist ideas that are bad. For example:

Gender is entirely a social construct and differences between males and females are due to oppression. For example, they claim that there are fewer female scientist because, not because females generally don't enjoy scientific careers, but because they are being held back somehow. Never mind that women are more likely to be hired in STEM.

Violence and sexual violence against women is a form of patriarchal control. This has corrupted domestic violence research, and preventing real solutions being found. Instead there is the Duluth model and campaigns targeted only at men stopping violence.

I do not support the idea of reinforcing masculinity and being proud of being masculine.

why?

2015-06-20T06:03:57+00:00

It's irrelevant if MRM is anti-feminism or not, because feminism doesn't have exclusive rights to equality. [even if feminism were for real equality, which it isn't]

You can support equal rights and not be a feminist, you can support equal rights and be anti-feminism.

Feminism =/= women

feminism =/= equality

Conflating feminism with women and equality is just a way for feminism to make it so anyone who isn't a part of their ideology are automatically "bad" for being anti-women/women's equality [sexist, misogynistic, etc.].

Why should it matter if people are anti-ideology[feminism]?

I do not support the idea of reinforcing masculinity and being proud of being masculine.

Why? Masculinity is natural and normal. Being proud of your masculinity... What's wrong about that? Why should we all be feminine? Conflating healthy human behavior with femininity is sexist. Conflating all damaging human behavior with masculinity is sexist too.

I say this as a gay man who tips well over into the feminine scale. I don't have much masculine about me, but there's nothing wrong with masculinity or wanting to not punish boys for being masculine [ie; not feminine].

And if you're coming from a "masculinity/femininity is a social construct" stance... nature says otherwise. We can't deny biology and say it's all a social construct.

TechnoSam_Belpois · 2015-06-20T06:08:12+00:00

There's a big difference between anti-feminism and anti-women's rights.

You have to be real careful with who you're talking to, a lot of people define words differently.

2015-06-20T08:19:09+00:00

I don't know who some of you are kidding. Most of men's problems in society today are caused directly and indirectly by feminism. Most of us are strongly anti-feminist. If you're not, you might want to do think carefully about why you're here.

DavidByron2 · 2015-06-20T18:35:44+00:00

Yes it is, not by goal but by necessity and it really should be a lot more anti-feminist. Of course some of us here are actually self-identified anti-feminists instead of or in addition to being MRA.

I do not support the idea of reinforcing masculinity and being proud of being masculine.

I was going to say there's none of that here but a fairer answer is i have no idea what you even mean really.

DavidByron2 · 2015-06-20T18:36:34+00:00

Would Men's Liberation Movement be the movement most closely aligned with feminism?

No that would be the Nazis or the KKK or some other hate movement.

ThePigmanAgain · 2015-06-20T02:45:15+00:00

"Is the Men's rights movement anti-feminism?"

Yes. In other startling news, Jews are not fond of Mel Gibson.

soalone34 · 2015-06-20T04:58:53+00:00

Most of the tirades about feminists here are referencing academic and governmental (basically powerful) feminists who they feel are not representing men and/or misandrist.

It's understood the average feminist will say "feminism is about equality" and that's the extent of their beliefs.

wazzup987 · 2015-06-20T08:26:39+00:00

Not all branches of feminism but most branches.

chafedinksmut · 2015-06-20T11:39:54+00:00

Well, you'll get some equivocation here. Feminists will claim they want equality for all while opposing equal sentencing guidelines for female criminals and Equal Parenting laws that give men 50% custody of their kids. So, do we oppose the idea that women should be equal under the law and have the same civil rights? No.

Do we oppose how feminism has defined itself by it's actions and stances rather than it's words? Absolutely.

garglemesh42 · 2015-06-20T14:50:53+00:00

Being proud of being feminine is okay but being proud of being masculine isn't? That's some real double standards bullshit right there. If you want to continue propagating double standards that hurt men, go to /r/feminism. If you are against that bullshit and want equality, welcome, you're in the right place. We are mostly egalitarian here, with a focus on the areas where men are disadvantaged. In many cases, that means being anti-feminist, because feminists are the ones upholding the double standards that disadvantage men because they give women advantages. They're the ones against default shared parenting. Radfems are out there that seriously believe the world would be better if 90% of men were killed, the world would be a better place. That all heterosexual intercourse (PIV) is rape, that all men are secretly pedofiles. You think we shouldn't be against people that are fighting to increase inequality in the name of helping women?

This is where you'll probably be thinking "but not all feminists are like that!" Well, that may be true, but when the "good" ones refuse to stop supporting the bad ones, they can't be that good, can they??

thehumungus · 2015-06-20T15:41:15+00:00

this subreddit likes taking anti-feminist stances a lot. There's also a lot of legitimate mens issues brought up.

I suggest you just choose what matters to you and what you believe in, rather than seeking the proper herd to go along with.

morerokk · 2015-06-20T18:06:15+00:00

MRA's are not necessarily anti-feminism.

They are definitely anti-misandry though, and since feminists can be huge misandrists sometimes, I can see why feminists would call the MRM "anti-feminist".

victorymonk · 2015-06-20T18:12:03+00:00

Feminism actively opposes or creates many issues that, I would say, are at the of core men's right. Yes, there is a dictionary definition of feminism and there is feminism that affects people's lives and laws, for example the NOW.

The NOW is against shared parenting (how is shared parenting not equality??), the NOW is against reproductive rights for men (in cases like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Dubay_child_support_case), by arguing that it's ok for men to be forced into parenthood.

More on custody issues: let's not forget that the Tender Years doctrine is a feminist invention.

Family courts: despite some feminists saying alimony is patriarchy, the NOW is consistently lobbying against alimony reforms.

Domestic violence: it is feminism that framed DV as men's need to exercise their patriarchal power and control (vomit), thereby by construction ignoring male victims.

TL; DR: MRM has to be ant-feminist because for many men's rights issues it is feminism that either actively creates them or prevents their resolution.

Kingpink2 · 2015-06-20T10:11:00+00:00

Its anti bullshit wether it comes from the government (draft) Religion (circumcision) or feminism (misandry).

Title	Is the Men's rights movement anti-feminism? [Serious]
Author	Numbers_in_my_name
Upvotes	12
Comments	94
Date	June 20, 2015 1:47 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3agvyt/is_the_mens_rights_movement_antifeminism_serious/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/is-the-mens-rights-movement-anti-feminism-serious.977180 https://theredarchive.com/post/977180

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