While France bans paternity tests as fatherhood is psychological not biological why in this case - Families of two women accidentally switched at birth awarded €1.88m in ruling by French court

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Such circumstances already exist. You can be roped into child support in many western countries, including the US, Canada and UK through the doctrine of Equitable Paternity and sometimes statute if you "assume the role of a father". That can be as simple as buying the kid a gift.

The New York Court of Appeals recently reinforced the doctrine of equitable paternity, ruling 5-2 that a man who acted as a father to a girl he assumed was his daughter was estopped from denying paternity even after DNA tests proved that he was not her biological parent. (Shondel J. v. Mark D., 2006WL 1835214 (N.Y. July 6, 2006).)

"In allowing a court to declare paternity irrespective of biological fatherhood, the legislature made a deliberate policy choice that speaks directly to the case before us," Judge Albert Rosenblatt wrote for the majority. "Cutting off [established parental] support, whether emotional or financial, may leave the child in a worse position than if that support had never been given."

The court also said that fraud and misrepresentation, often used as defenses to the doctrine of equitable estoppel, did not apply. "The legislature did not create an exception for men who take on the role of fatherhood based on the mother's misrepresentation," Rosenblatt wrote. "Under the enactment, the mother's motivation and honesty are irrelevant; the only issue for the court is how the interests of the child are best served."

Never date a single mother.

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Chartier v Chartier:

Chartier v Chartier, 1999 1 S.C.R. 242 is a leading Canadian case decided by the Supreme Court of Canada on the legal role of step parents in a marriage. The Court held that a step parent who is found to be in loco parentis cannot unilaterally withdraw from the family relationship.

Gerald Chartier was married to Sharon Chartier who had a child from a previous marriage. Gerald had helped care for the child and took the role a father. The two were separated and Sharon applied for child support. Gerald had argued that he had severed his in loco parentis role and so was not responsible for supporting the child.

Justice Bastarache, writing for a unanimous Court, held in favour of Sharon and stated that Gerald could not unilaterally sever ties to the child. To determine if a spouse is in the role of parent, the court must look at a number of factors including:

whether the child participates in the extended family in the same way as would a biological child;

whether the person provides financially for the child (depending on ability to pay);

whether the person disciplines the child as a parent;

whether the person represents to the child, the family, the world, either explicitly or implicitly, that he or she is responsible as a parent to the child;

the nature or existence of the child’s relationship with the absent biological parent.

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^Interesting: ^Reasons ^of ^the ^Supreme ^Court ^of ^Canada ^by ^Justice ^Bastarache ^| ¹⁹⁹⁹ ^reasons ^of ^the ^Supreme ^Court ^of ^Canada ^| ^Danielle ^Chartier

^Parent ^commenter ^can ^toggle ^NSFW ^or ^delete^. ^Will ^also ^delete ^on ^comment ^score ^of ^-1 ^or ^less. ^| ^FAQs ^| ^Mods ^| ^Magic ^Words

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Of course paternity testing is illegal is social democracies. It'll be illegal soon in the US and Canada too. The rate of paternity fraud is much higher than most people realize and research into it is considered very taboo. Why is this? Imagine if tomorrow every guy raising or paying child support for a kid that wasn't his didn't have to pay anymore. Imagine if DNA proof of infidelity could be used to alter divorce settlements and alimony payments? It's not just hundreds of thousands to millions of women who lose out. If they can't afford to raise the kids and can't find the real fathers, the government is on the hook for the bill.

So, rather allowing men the chance to avoid being defrauded of 18 years worth of time/money/energy, the law forces them to subsidize their partners' infidelity. Equality!

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If "biology doesn't matter" the it's okay to kill people as long as you do it painlessly and without warning right?

All of our hopes, fears, and dreams are "biological", including fear of death.

To say that a man's instincts toward protecting his own progeny are irrational is just a step toward saying that wanting to stay alive is irrational.

Does rape cause some disability, or destroy wealth? No. What makes it horrible is the hundreds of millions of years of female organisms developing an instinct to succeed by controlling their own reproduction, and that instinct recognizes rape, which is a loss of reproductive choice, as horrible.

Likewise the male instinct of wanting to ensure the kid he's raising is actually his has been formed my hundreds of millions of years of evolution which say that "if you've put all this time and effort into a child that is not yours, it is one of the most horrible things that can happen to you."

Cuckolding represents a horrific affront to emotions that no man can escape. It is horror incarnate. It's the fucking predator that we sweat awake at night plotting to avoid. And unlike the huge spiders, the sabertooth tigers, the barbarians over the hill, cuckolding is an ancient evolutionary foe that is being cultivated in our midst.

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Why should you need to go through the court to acquire such information when the information itself holds no legal weight without taking any legal action?

This is why it's illegal to do it yourself, because it would stir shit up with no chance of a valid outcome. In the same way that you aren't allowed to present evidence yourself in court in French law, you must give it to the police during the "instruction" phase because all evidence has to be gathered legitimately in order to be accepted by the court. In the case of a DNA test, only a court-ordered one is deemed valid.

make informed decisions about their life without using some kind of nuclear option

There is no nice way to say "I suspect you of trying to make me raise someone else's child without my knowledge" and there are extremely few women who would take this well. Any step you take in this direction is nuclear anyway, so why not have court oversight over the proceedings?

[–]luxury_banana 12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

The only reason it would "stir shit up" is if the man found out he's not the father. Then he would have good cause to visit a court of law and sort it out, where he'll have to take another DNA test because only those that follow a strict chain of evidence are admissible in court. If he was the father, then he'd have peace of mind and there'd be no need to "stir shit up."

Look, let's be real here. Brass tacks. You know as well as I do who's in the position of power when it comes to this entire scenario. It's not the man. A man cannot even know he's the father of a child without a paternity test. That is pretty basic biological fact. Modern legal systems have made it even worse by even forcing men who they know aren't the father to continue providing, a form of indentured servitude.

You seem to think it's ok to take even more power away from a man and not only heighten his chance of being taken advantage of in a way that can be easily described as a form of slavery, but also increases the number of men that this happen to.

With this in mind, your entire argument on the basis of any kind of morality or ethics of any kind is a complete joke.

[+][deleted] -17 points-16 points-15 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

You seem to ignore the first item I stated: a father can refuse to recognize a child at birth. This means that until a court has found him to be the father, he's considered not to be. Same as innocent-until-proven-guilty.

So men actually hold a lot of power here, and this has enraged French feminists for decades actually, since they claimed that men could just deny everything forever. This is an old law that comes straight from more "patriarchal" (hate that word...) times and was never abrogated, because French laws essentially never are. Then came along paternity tests, satisfying both feminists (since women can now sue to establish paternity in legit deadbeat cases) and MRAs (since men can deny paternity in legit non-paternity cases and never be bothered for it).

I really don't get why everyone is so mad here, the system is quite fair.

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Uh hello, yes I can read, were you hoping otherwise? Because both the civil code (relevant article is actually 16-11) and the /r/france post clearly state that fathers have no such right, only a judge has the right to order one. We've already established this fact long ago in this thread, thank you.

Please answer me this. Is there something about the French mentality/culture that makes this distinction so difficult to grasp? Or is it just a problem with the feminist mentality? It's sort of like saying that French men also have the right to arrest people and send them to prison, because of course they can file a police report. Police can arrest people and judges can sent them to prison, correct? Not ordinary French men. Do French men also go around saying, "I have the right to declare war on your country," because they take their right to vote in a democratic society to the same absurd level?

Let me really try to understand this. In America, a young girl is allowed to get an abortion without her parent's permission. But in France, grown men are not even allowed to find out if a child is theirs without asking the government for permission. Correct? So in France, adult men are treated as children, with fewer reproductive rights than even a little girl would have in a more conservative country.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Uh hello, yes I can read, were you hoping otherwise? Because both the civil code (relevant article is actually 16-11) and the /r/france post clearly state that fathers have no such right, only a judge has the right to order one. We've already established this fact long ago in this thread, thank you.

What are you going on about?

The express consent of the person must be obtained in writing before the carrying out of the examination, after the person has been duly informed of its nature and its purpose.

Are you interpreting that as "father's don't have the right"? Are you going to interpret any case of not having consent as not having the right? Great, then no one has the right drive, swim, fly, touch somebody else, etc. because you need consent.

Please answer me this.[...]

God fucking dammit, what the fuck is wrong with you? I'm not French, I'm not feminist and your reasoning is completely flawed. What mental hoops are you jumping through to write:

It's sort of like saying that French men also have the right to arrest people and send them to prison, because of course they can file a police report.

Did someone step our your head after birth? What in the world do you understand as "the right to get a paternity test". Is the father going to go uni, get a degree, certify himself, get the sample, run the tests himself, certify that the results are correct and present them in court? How would that not be a conflict of interest?

Shit, either you're a motherfucking imbecile or a fucking troll.

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It's got absolutely nothing to do with France having made private lab tests punishable by law.

Exactly. My opinion never changed on that. If you had read my whole comment earlier you might not have stawmaned me so hard.

Why would you agree to a strawman, then?

I'm not sure you know what a strawman is. I agreed with the intent of the law, not the language of it. There's a big difference. I agree with the intent behind Obamacare, that doesn't mean I agree with the law itself. Maybe don't be so quick to judge matters of opinion, which that is. I made no comment saying I think the law is fair, only that it makes some sense from a legal standpoint. It's really not worse than the US, where you only get 30 days to contest paternity, regardless of the presence of your signature on the certificate (as far as I know).

Now continue being an asshole to people who don't even disagree with you. It's fucking great.

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You either accept a child as yours without question, or you decide that you don't want to raise someone else's kid and take action.

Besides, assuming that everyone is unrealistically nice in such a situation, a father could sue the mom for paternity testing, receive a paternity-nullifying court ruling and then stay with the mom and adopt the child anyway. The state would shut up because all it was asked is to establish if there was natural filiation or not. You can decide to have non-natural filiation (IE adoption) later on.

You are completely wrong

No, I am presenting the facts of French law and am therefore right.

Leaving the decision to get a DNA test up to the judge and the mother

It is not what happens, the judge has to order the test and the mother has no say in this. It is a fact: French men have a proper right to paternity testing. Just because you can't half-ass it in your backyard like in 'murica doesn't mean it isn't there. There are lots of issues for men in French law and policy that I'm passionate about, but paternity testing isn't one of them.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 11 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -16 points-15 points-14 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

If I'm French, I have to pay a lawyer,

If you're French, the loser pays the legal fees for everyone. This means that you only have to pay a lawyer if you're actually the father.

get a court date

You don't even need to show up, this is a clear-cut type of case; there's no jury, there's no "maybe the DNA test was drunk", it's just yes or no.

and pay the filing fees

There are none.

take time off of work for the case

To give a DNA sample at your nearest police station. That's like 2 hours tops, you can do this during a lunch break.

and only then after I've dropped a few thousand dollars in legal fees

Once again, only if you're wrong. If you don't recognize the kid at birth, then you get sued by the mother and you can get a public defender. Then you'd only have to pay if the kid is indeed not yours; the price of your peace of mind for the rest of your life, it's not that expensive.

[–]dungone 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

If you're French, the loser pays the legal fees for everyone.

How is that relevant? You still have to pay the incurred costs as you go, so you need the funds in place to make your way through the process, no matter what. The fact you possibly get reimbursed doesn't change the fact no lawyer works for free, and they want their money as they incur the charges.

My cost is $80CAD. Are you honestly arguing that the up front costs in the French case will be comparable to that? Seriously?

You don't even need to show up, this is a clear-cut type of case; there's no jury, there's no "maybe the DNA test was drunk", it's just yes or no

That's not at all true. The mother makes a case for parentage, your lawyer makes a case for non-parentage, and the judge weighs the evidence and decides whether there's enough to justify a DNA test, so there's still bantering to be done, and because it affects you materially for the next 18 years or so, you'd have to be crazy not to be there.

There are none.

I'll give you this one, because as a male you can't even file a paternity case in France. It has to be the child or the mother, so at least you're saved that cost because you're never the claimant.

To give a DNA sample at your nearest police station.

Like I said, you just don't get barriers to entry. I don't have to make a date to go to the police. I don't have to involve the courts. I don't have to have a lawyer. I just need a kit and enough time with my supposed child to do the test and most of my side of the testing can be done without the child present ... on my own time ... in my own living room ...

Once again, only if you're wrong.

And again, this is irrelevant from a perspective of barriers to entry. No lawyer works in court without a retainer, and if you don't have the retainer, you don't get the lawyer, so you have up front costs that dwarf the $80CAD I'll be paying.

Then you'd only have to pay if the kid is indeed not yours; the price of your peace of mind for the rest of your life, it's not that expensive.

Yes, after weeks or months of waiting, with involvement by lawyers, police, and judges, you could get a favourable judgment and get reimbursed the thousands of euros you've paid to represent yourself through the process.

My cost was $80CAD, and my time could be as short as a half an hour if my supposed child is in a room with me, and there's no police, no lawyers, no courts.

Again, which route do you think men would choose, if you gave that choice to 1000 men?

[–]Stories_of_Red 17 points18 points19 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -14 points-13 points-12 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Please note that I'm only considering the legal point of view here. You can indeed decide not to respect the law and to get your own illegal test, and to negociate with the mom or whatever. It is for example extremely common for parents to disregard the official divorce rulings and decide of their own shared custody schedule as long as neither of them makes an official complaint, in which case the official schedule will be enforced by social services.

The state however will not give a fuck about your private informal dealings; it has only one thing: either the birth certificate duly signed by the father, or a court ruling stating who's the father. This name is who the state will consider to be the dad, for inheritance, child support, tax, welfare, legal responsibility for the kid, or whatever else.

The notion that a father swabbing a child's cheek to check paternity harms that child is bizarre

It is considered to harm the child because it means that someone is questionning a legally established bond of parenthood by means that are outside of the law. This will very rarely and up being good for the child, since a child is entirely dependant on its parents to even live and therefore relies on this bond being unquestionned by the legal parents. If you don't want to be the legal parent, you have to use the law.

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Who were the people behind this law change?

The French government, otherwise known as the country of France.

Governments don't do anything. People in the governments do it. Who in the government was behind this law change?

/u/DAE_FAP You... you just answered your own question.

You're an incredibly dense idiot. I didn't answer my own question, I restated the question to contain the implicit gradual specialization in abstraction that you've used.

You've gone from country to government. What next? Department?

Then the question would be "Who in the department was behind this law change"

Then you'll say sub department, then office, then finally a job title, then I will say:

Who is the person with this job title?

Idiot, now you tell me how I answered my own question, then learn to read.

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[–]Peter_Principle_ 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Actually, he said "people", that's usually plural.

Maybe people don't understand what's being asked here. In the US, if I'm cheesed about some legislation becoming a law, I can find out exactly what people in congress were responsible for it. I can look up the authors of a bill and the people who shepherded it through the legislative process. I can also look up the represenatives and senators who voted for it, against it, and those who abstained. If I want to take revenge against any of those people: vote against them in the next election, bad mouth them on the internet, write them a letter explaining how dumb they are, or even hire COBRA to trash their azaleas, their names are readily available.

I think that's the sort of information Deadpool is looking for. Is this not available in other countries?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes. What do you think? More than ten people are involved? That's so insanely laughable, I question if you've ever had a job.

It starts with an idiot, that has an idea. Then a lot of other idiots say "I need this done too". Then it's an embarrassment of busy idiots making a mockery of intelligent civilization. Then the law does / doesn't move forward depending on how fanatic / paid off the "representative" is. Or the bill is "proclaim pedos are evil" and there are 400 additional points like "fracking is now considered a charitable and tax incentivized activity", then it passes into law, and because of pedos companies can now pollute your water supply while not paying taxes. You're paying them to pollute your water supply. Amazing.

So literally yes, it's a bunch of people with their own agendas.

If you don't understand that, if you think this is like that scene in fucking starwars, I've got news for you.

[–]librtee_com -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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