Are looks actually subjective? Always been interested in this topic.

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n0name1026 · 2022-06-01T19:55:03+00:00

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I do think there are some things that people generally are socialized to consider attractive, but for some that programming doesn't stick.

Some men prefer to date larger women over smaller ones.

Some women prefer men their height instead of taller men.

Some women prefer a man who has broad shoulders and a John cena-like jaw while others prefer men with softer features like timothee Chalamet or even a more 'plain' look like ed sheerhan

Some men like muscular women whilst others prefer a more slim frame who are shorter.

I think some men obsess over their own looks because its not socially acceptable for (younger) women to complement men on their looks unsolicited so most of us go through life not knowing if we are attractive and thats how some fall into the black pill mindset when they enter a community where other men tell them they aren't getting dates because they have a weak chin/jawline, they're short because they are under 6ft and nobody will ever love them because they can't seem to lose weight or gain muscle. They get so stuck that even if a woman tells them that they have attractive qualities it just sounds like her trying to placate him and she doesn't actually believe that because if she did, then there would've been women like her who wouldn't reject him if he asked them out.

vcreativ · 2022-06-01T21:15:13+00:00

Sure. If you look at Liam Neeson or Daniel Craig, for example. And I mean really look at their faces, neither of them is pretty in my eyes. No offense you two. :)

But both of them have an expression that makes them look attractive.

That's an incredibly important distinction, a body/face in isolation and how you fill it with life. Some faces are pretty in principle, but paint a dull expression on it, then that's that. Even worse if it's a dull character.

To me then, it's really important that someone you're attracted to had a chance to see you around, to notice you, not just for what you look like, but who you are and how you move (both face and body).

I guess I'm saying, not only are looks subjective, but they're way more expansive that pure physical form. The entire concept is a ton more flexible than it seems. You're body is like a canvas, with you the painter and the art.

Kappador66 · 2022-06-01T20:58:02+00:00

I know this is kind of a meme, but have you tried getting a haircut and shaving instead of making endless Reddit threads all about "tfw no gf"?

I'd say looks are much more objective than people like to admit.

zonadedesconforto · 2022-06-01T21:46:29+00:00

Well, I’m a straight guy who is totally into tomboy-ish/androgynous women and not interested at all in “delicate” and hyper-feminine women. Lots is guys have totally opposite tastes compared to mine. So yeah, I think “ugly” looks are subjective to a degree, especially when you add fashion into the equation. I’d say there are few truly ugly people in this world, most unattractive people just don’t know how to dress well or how to wear good fits

an_altar_of_plagues · 2022-06-01T21:52:12+00:00

Attractiveness is subjective. And, oftentimes people have overlapping subjective qualities that they find attractive. This doesn't make it "objective", just that people have multiple similarities with others in what they find interesting/attractive.

Curt_doggy_dog · 2022-06-01T21:46:43+00:00

There's some looks that are less widely appreciated, but ultimately there is always someone out there who is going to find you attractive. For example, some conventionally good looking people (who meet the societal standards for beauty) are "chubby chasers" or are into "dad bods."

AnAbsoluteGhoul · 2022-06-01T22:20:10+00:00

A big part of how a person looks is how they carry themselves. How they walk. How they move. Posture, body language, facial expressions, etc.

This always gets ignored by incel and red pill types who slouch up to women or invade their space and then say “She said no because I’m so UGLY.”

SweelFor- · 2022-06-01T20:27:10+00:00

Yes. I'm regularly surprised that this is surprising, but yes, beauty and attractiveness are subjective

sabiinvesting · 2022-06-01T23:16:54+00:00

I think the most physically attractive and the least attractive are less subjective, while most people don't really belong in either groups. I find Emma Watson beautiful, but not Lady Gaga. Actually, I find it surprising that you don't find Emma Watson attractive. Anyway, it is more subjective than most people tend to think especially for people who aren't at the end of each spectrum imo.

lawrieee · 2022-06-02T06:20:33+00:00

I think you're over estimating the importance of looks. Things like shyness have a bigger impact. Have you tried online dating?

Training_Passenger79 · 2022-06-02T07:01:28+00:00

We already know what you’re saying to be true from a scientific standpoint, I believe.

When it comes to objective features like whether a shirt is red or green, humans seem to agree, but the way those colors actually look - maybe not so much, and whether they LIKE them - that is a very diverse opinion.

People who disagree with this stance will use evolutionary psychology as proof, which is a very dodgey branch of science, imo.

But it is also self-evident that genetic health is not the deciding factor in sexual attraction, due to the heroin chic movement and supermodel movement. We became attracted to people who look strung out on drugs and half dead because it was popular - not because it was biologically superior.

For a long time now, the traits associated with a healthy woman body, as seen in a person like Marilyn Monroe, have been associated with a lack of self-discipline, and therefore unattractive. In some areas of the world a unibrow is considered attractive.

Attraction comes and goes, and it is a function of what you love, value, and see potential in. I don’t think Lady Gaga is attractive, for the record. She is clearly very, very talented though and I respect that.

hippy_speed_ball · 2022-06-02T13:03:47+00:00

This is going to get a fair bit philosophical, so fair warning about technical jargon. "Subjective" and "objective" aren't totally separated concepts. That is to say some things are entirely subjective and some objective, but many or most things have both subjective and objective elements.

To make this more clear, consider the meaning of the words. Subjective is a quality that arises out of our perception alone. This is our raw experience; for example how we personally experience the color pink or the taste of a strawberry. Objective is the quality that arises directly the world regardless of the observer. This is how the world is independent of the observer, or in common along all observers. For instance that the earth is a big rock rotating around the sun.

Both subjective and objective observations often have biases from the other.

My experience of the color pink is subjective, but of course it is shaped by the design of my human brain, eyes, and genes. It's also shaped by a shared culture and learning environment. So, if you look at something I perceive as pink, you don't have access to what I see, it's subjective, but because of all the objective elements that go into it, it's likely to be a very similar experience for you.

Objective observations can have the same biases. Scientists making as objective of observations as possible jump through all kinds of hoops to avoid these subjective biases. They set up double blind studies, do experiments multiple times with different teams, rely on equipment instead of the naked eye, use algorithms to ensure better randomization, etc.

Now let's examine your questions with all of that in mind:

are bad looks subjective?

The answer to this is that looks, bad looks included, are a complicated mixture of subjective observation and objective principles.

First, consider that the broad conception of sexual desirability has changed over time and can vary among cultures. For example: Very petite women with less curvaceous bodies have become more desired by a greater number of people attracted to women in the late 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries. Before that typical depictions of female attractiveness were very curvaceous and a lot less petite. Similarly, in parts of Africa where HIV and AIDS deaths are very common, a higher body weight is seen as more desirable (because a low body fat percentage is an indicator of a failing immune system). This would point to some objectivity, at least at a given time within a given culture. Not a static and objective framework, but one that is at least shared by the largest group of observers within a specific context.

Second, consider that even though the largest group or even a majority may have a consensus about attractiveness within a certain culture at a particular time, there are always widely divergent outliers. And, often those outliers make a significant percentage of the group. For example: most people in the western world might agree that Kim Kardashian is attractive, but some don't find her attractive at all, some find her kind of attractive, etc. This points to deep subjectivity. Ultimately a persons particular observation can override any shared cultural framework or physiological lens.

Third, consider that mood can affect our level attraction drastically. People can by horny or not, can be pissed off and distracted, or feeling great and observant. These changes in mood can and will affect how we see the world around us, including the attractiveness of other people and ourselves. In a good mood, you might look into the mirror and think, "wow, I look pretty good today." In a bad mood, "wow, I look like shit." The same can happen for other people. In a good mood a woman might look at you and think, "he's kinda cute." In a bad mood she might not notice you at all or think, "meh, he's not my type."

To sum up and relate this back to your questions: bad looks are have elements of both. We can talk about things like the golden ratio or cultural zeitgeist concerning looks, but at the same time is actually very likely that some people find you attractive. It's neither entirely subjective and a random chance as to whether someone will find you attractive, nor so objective as to be mostly predictable.

The case of the group of people you find attractive and whether they find you attractive illustrates this. An outside observer could probably predict whether the largest number of those people would find you attractive or not, if they were keen to the cultural context of you and this group. However, they would have a hard time predicting which ones would find you attractive and exactly how many, or which ones found you unattractive and exactly how many. That's regardless of whether you were attractive to the entire group or not.

We are especially terrible at telling how attractive we are personally. Super models often think they're too fat, and some very undesirable people think they are super hot.

I know that was a bit complex, and my writing isn't always as clear as I want it to be, but I hope that helps a little to understand that it's not black and white subjective or objective. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and beholding is a complex thing.

MiKasX · 2022-06-02T19:55:44+00:00

I think it is like terms "heavy" and "lightl" - generally it is objective (example: 400 lbs weight is heavy, smartphone is light )

But sometimes, it can be subjective (ex. for my mom a pack of water is hard to carry, but not for me).

Kaleidoscopefatigue · 2022-06-03T08:55:26+00:00

I've been seeing posts by straight black women that they feel totally dejected by dating men because many aren't interested. I think that's appearance based rejection. There's something happening there.

duhhhhh121 · 2022-06-03T15:24:13+00:00

I think there is objectively attractive and subjective afterwards, if that makes sense

carritotaquito · 2022-06-06T00:36:35+00:00

To me, the only two things that are almost objective are the following:

Harmonious facial symmetry with strong angular features.
Waist to hip ratio. Broad shoulders on men, pear or hourglass shape for women.

Outside of that, I find nearly all sorts of humans attractive.

Title	Are looks actually subjective? Always been interested in this topic.
Author	Pomeranian111
Upvotes	12
Comments	48
Date	June 1, 2022 7:34 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/v2paf3/are_looks_actually_subjective_always_been/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/are-looks-actually-subjective-always-been.1117706 https://theredarchive.com/post/1117706

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