How does this sub feel about Trans people?

turbulance4 · 2020-01-07T21:26:08+00:00

Perfectly happy with trans people. However I'd say that our focus shouldn't be trans rights, this is a men's rights space. That being said, there are plenty of spaces where trans and men's rights intersect.

thereslcjg2000 · 2020-01-07T22:56:41+00:00

This sub is certainly pro-trans. I believe that's even established in the community's wiki. Trans people are honestly some of the most marginalized and truly oppressed people of any group in the western world today. I can't pretend I fully understand what it may be like to be trans, since gender identity isn't especially important to me. Having said that, I try to be as cognizant as I can with supporting the community.

LacklustreFriend · 2020-01-07T21:36:27+00:00

I get really annoyed when some people go "THERE ARE ONLY TWO GENDERS AMIRITE". These people tend to say so under the guise of "logic" and "reason", but actually they are allergic to any kind of nuance and also tend to be quite ignorant on this topic.

Being in the medical field, gender dysphoria is a real and well-documented problem, and the best way to deal with it is to support these people. Part of that is helping them transition if that is what they want, having the courtesy of using the correct pronouns, and just generally trying to understand them.

I wouldn't personally outlaw misgendering someone (unless perhaps if this behavior is part of persistent harrassment and bullying); but I do think going out of your way to refer to a trans woman as "he" or a trans man as "she" is one of the pettiest and most childish things one can do (e.g.: Candace Owens), and it makes me lose respect for such a person. More than offensive, it's just cringe and embarrassing.

I do have a problem with "cancel culture" (but that isn't inherent to trans or non-binary people, of course), for example I think disowning J.K. Rowling completely because she liked one problematic Tweet by some online shitstirrer is an overreaction, as is making ContraPoints a persona non grata because she once said something controversial about pronouns. And I also think Dave Chappelle or Ricky Gervais making a dumb politically incorrect joke or two isn't an "act of transphobic violence". I also don't think it's wrong to point out potential complicating factors with trans women competing in the same sports events as cis women because of certain biological factors - although this by itself does not invalidate trans identity in any way, or absolve us from the responsibility to find a way accomodate trans people in a way that is fair to everyone.

But /r/GenderCritical has a really strange and conspiratorial view about trans people. They really seem to think the concept of "trans women" is one giant conspiracy by perverted men to invade women's bathrooms and thrust their ladypenis in helpless cis women's general direction. If it were up to me, I'd try making all public bathrooms gender neutral, just to see the priceless reactions on these people's faces.

All of this seems to be rooted in a hatred and demonization of male sexuality that runs so deep that even trans women are seen through this lense as mere perverted deviants (just look at TERF's obsession with "autogynephilia").

In summary, trans people are mostly awesome, and that is really as good as any group of people is going to get :)

IronGentry · 2020-01-08T10:21:46+00:00

GC/Terfs in general hate trans people (though let's be realistic, its 99% directed at trans women) because they hate men, and view them as their assigned gender. The rhetoric they use against transwomen is rooted in the belief that men are inherently tainted rape and violence machines, and thus transwomen are basically monsters pretending to be people. They're far less hateful towards transmen, because they view them as misguided women (and thus as people with moral agency).

As for my own views, I support trans people. I don't really get a lot of it, especially non-binary stuff and nondysphoric trans people, but honestly it's no real concern of mine how others live

ur_waifus_prolapse · 2020-01-07T22:41:50+00:00

Antagonism towards trans people seems entirely misandry, religious tradition, and disgust reflex. The scientific consensus on the subject seems mostly correct. I have some critique around young people and their adoption of new sexual/gender labels, but that seems to be mostly their own confusion. It'll likely self-correct as sexual education improves and frameworks around gender become less stifling.

ElderApe · 2020-01-07T22:29:58+00:00

I'm not really majorly involved in the trans community but I generally support trans rights. However some trans people will view me as true scum or a transmedicalist, because I believe that essentially transgenderism is a medical treatment for a psychological disorder. Otherwise you can dress and act how you want but that doesn't change your gender.

I also just generally don't understand non binary gender. I think there are two genders and at best you can be a little bit male and little bit female in different ways, but there is no third option. And this makes non binary people fundamentally different from cis people or trans people, as their 'gender' will it inevitably be borrowed bits and pieces from the other two genders.

jmdenn3000 · 2020-01-07T21:34:46+00:00

I feel that the time to bridge the gaps between gay, strait, bi and trans men is right now. Most issues that affect men are magnified in gbt men

transgirltradwife · 2020-01-07T22:20:55+00:00

I believe certain conversations regarding trans people can be useful in the context of gendered discussion like this space. Though this doesn't mean that every conversation here should be redirected to talk about trans issues.

I would say that while most feminists can agree that TERFs are bad, there is little insight or self-examination as to how and why they're created in the first place. They often cite them as some sort of aberration or "not real feminists" to avoid this introspection, or if they do introspect, they see it as some left-wing failure of being properly intersectional. But you don't see feminists engaging in the vile levels of bigotry to other groups that they do trans women. Sure, "white feminism" may lead to feminists not properly taking into account the experiences of people who aren't white, but feminists aren't forming Stormfront-esque groups devoted to hating other minorities like they do trans people.

I think the reason why trans people are relevant in the discussion in a mens space is because this level of vile hatred directed at trans women is based upon levels of vile hatred directed at men. They don't see trans women as women, they see them as "male infiltrators". I'm really scared that those women tweeting "men are trash" on facebook at age 20 will be TERFs at 25, because once you subscribe to essentialist views on the inherent quality of a particular gender, it serves as a gateway drug towards other forms of hate. But since men aren't an "oppressed minority" (not that men aren't like the one sociological majority where there aren't tangible disadvantages to being a member), critique of these conditions would necessitate a critique of the concept of "punching up" and other axioms the woke left holds as gospel.

mewacketergi · 2020-01-08T01:53:45+00:00

I definitely got a 'bitch eating crackers' vibe from that sub about Trans people in the same sort of way I get from this sub about feminism/women.

This subreddit does not dislike women, and we don't oppose the genuinely egalitarian aspects of feminism.

Edit: If you want us to respond, please don't engage in bad faith.

bkrugby78 · 2020-01-07T23:33:48+00:00

It’s complicated for me since I’m foggy on what actually defines someone as trans. I don’t hate anyone per se. I think people have the right to live their best life. Things get murky when you look at in an issue by issue basis. Ie trans women in sports.

highmrk · 2020-01-08T01:27:09+00:00

Trans people are allies for sure. This sounds objectifying as hell, but their very existence only proves that there’s SOMETHING to the gender binary, which I believe that there is.

And this is the very reason TERFs exist. If anything, if you truly believe there’s no differences between men and women, then of course you should see Trans people as “sexist.”

Trans people are also some of the best “referees” in the gender wars. Most men and women go through their whole life just being men or women. But some people have been BOTH. Reading women transitioning to men is hilarious cuz they straight up prove how “being a man” is largely ingrained through testosterone. Talking about how their constantly think about sex and stuff lol plus the male sex shaming that goes on cuz a common phrase is “I felt like a monster by objectifying these women.” Clearly shows the pathologizing of men in our culture.

Plus people should be able to do whatever the fuck they want if they’re not hurting anyone

azazelcrowley · 2020-01-08T05:41:38+00:00

Down the line supportive of trans inclusion and rights until you hit the sports issue where I genuinely don't know what a solution would be and suspect there isn't one which would be satisfactory. The reason for segregating womens sports is obvious in many cases, and that segregation is not based on the gender of the participants, but their sex. It's called women and mens leagues because of the conflation of gender and sex which trans activists are opposed to, but the reasoning for the segregation is sex based.

A utopian solution would be that with the sufficient advancement and normalization of trans rights, a male and female sports league could contain both men and women in each league and this would not be cause for comment or discomfort as the concepts of sex and gender would have been decoupled from eachother for everyone (So basically the opposite of the current approach.).

However this then runs into the problem of female men essentially being on performance enhancing drugs.

It's possible that there will be no solution that does not involve either the exclusion of trans people or the marginalization of cis women in sports.

Other than this I don't see any issues with the inclusion of trans people in society as the gender which they are.

That said, i'm opposed to pronouns other than the usual ones because they seem stupid to me. I'm happy to use "They", or perhaps it'll seem less stupid to me as it becomes more normalized. But at most a third pronoun, and it'd be nice to settle on it instead of the endless xir xer xim stuff.

serpentineeyelash · 2020-01-08T12:54:01+00:00

I support the right for people to live as whatever gender they choose, and that is also the position in the Mission Statement.

I'm not an expert on trans issues; I'm agnostic on whether or not transness is biologically "real" (though at the very least, the people born with ambiguous genitalia are real). But I also don't think it matters. If someone wants to live as a different gender, it's not causing any harm, other than "discomfort" among some prejudiced individuals who see them as sexual predators or whatever. So I think we should live and let live.

Indeed I think trans people are natural allies of male advocates, due to having experienced both sides of the gender coin as well as the bigotry of radfems. For example, I've noticed trans female feminists tend to hold less anti-male views than cis female feminists.

I don't understand the anti-trans viewpoint taken by some of the more right-wing MRAs. I think they are putting their general right-wing worldview ahead of male interests. In my opinion the trans movement seems at worst harmless to men, and at best it could help expand gender roles for everyone.

As far as I can tell, most criticism of the trans movement is motivated by 1) a general distrust of the left, 2) a disgust for anyone who differs from the norm, and/or 3) a fear and hatred of men and male sexuality. I'm opposed to all three of these motivations. Particularly the third point - why does nobody ever worry about lesbians perving in the women's bathroom, or violent lesbians being placed in female prisons?

There may be some legitimate criticisms of the trans movement regarding cancel culture, virtue-signalling, and denial of any biological component to sex differences. However, when some people harp on these objections as if it's the biggest political issue of our time, I suspect they're just using it as an excuse to push one of the aforementioned three motivations. Overall, I think the irrational beliefs of the trans movement are doing far less harm than the irrational beliefs of transphobes.

mensmod · 2020-01-08T17:24:26+00:00

Ever see a body builder where all they seem to talk about is going to the gym? Or a vegan who only talks about veganism? LGBT people who are so steeped in their gender/orientation identity put other people off, just like the vegan and body builder scenario. Doesn't make them bad people, but it certainly means that they are going to be treated differently even by LGBT-friendly individuals.

An LGBT person who is a well rounded individual and has other interests than gender/orientation is great! Lots of friends like this. But LGBT people who are so scarred by their past abuse and experiences with phobic people that they envelop themselves in their LGBTness can be annoying and not people that I typically keep as friends.

ExcellentTraffic123 · 2020-01-08T00:40:57+00:00

As a person in transition, I have not encountered any overt transphobia here like I have in r\mensrights, and I hope it stays that way.

Some of you know the expression "trans rights are human rights" and in my view, there is an incredible intersection between trans rights, gay rights, women's rights, and men's rights.

Just to give a few examples, I believe that breaking down prejudices against trans people will be enormously beneficial to gay and gnc people who may fall victim to the same prejudices as trans people. It has been reported that trans women have been murdered by men who slept with them and were later pressured to "prove" that they weren't gay.

Another big one is intactivism. Not only do I see it as plainly obvious that a person should have the right to do with they please with their body without outside coercion, I will share with you as a bonus fact that foreskin tissue is useful in vaginoplasty surgeries to get the best outcome.

TERFs have a horrible, hateful ideology, but in pointing this out, I still believe that it is important to seek understanding of why people choose to embrace such an ideology in the first place. (But to repeat, I will not excuse their hatred under any circumstance. Regardless of why they hate, the end goal must be for their hatred to cease.)

mtcapri · 2020-01-08T01:07:10+00:00

I'm totally accepting of what I consider to be the "basic" rights/issues of trans people, but less-to-not-at-all of some of the more "secondary" issues. I'll try to go through them below, but I doubt I'll be able to include all of them.

I consider gender dysphoria to be a real, neurological phenomenon, and have no problem with sex-reassignment surgery for those who suffer from it. I think there are some issues surrounding its diagnosis, but that's fairly normal for any psychiatric diagnosis.

I confess I'm not as up-to-date on the research surrounding hormone blockers as I should be, but provided there are no permanent effects from implementing them, I see no reason why children who have been diagnosed as trans shouldn't be allowed to take them. That being said, if I'm wrong, and there are permanent effects from taking them, I'm less comfortable agreeing that children should be allowed to take them. The main reason for this is that diagnosis of psychiatric disorders in children is particularly difficult, and thus there's a heightened chance of psychiatrists getting it wrong. I'm not saying I'm against it entirely if there are permanent effects from using blockers, but it depends on what they are and research surrounding children who take them. Basically, this is a complicated issue, I don't know enough, and I have concerns.

I do not subscribe to the concept of "gender fluidity" or "gender as a spectrum." As such, I am completely fine with requiring professionals to use binary identified pronouns for people who request them, but not tertiary alternatives, like "xe/xhe" or what-have-you. This is because, while I understand that gender can be conceptualized differently from sex, this simply means to me that gender can be thought of as "sociological gender norms," and that male-/female-sexed people do not always adhere rigidly to them; it does not mean, IMO, that there are 3+ genders, because I think this strays from the definition of gender I just gave and merges back into what we mean by sex (biological sex). In my experience, a tiny fraction of the population identifies as "non-binary," and I'm highly skeptical that their identification reflects a real physiological condition. People can obviously identify however they choose, and I have no problem with that, but I don't believe anyone else should be forced to change their language, policies, or behavior to acknowledge what is most-likely just a fringe cultural phenomenon.

One of the sociological issues that arises from the trans debate is the question of how trans people should be handled in the dating world. IMO, people have a right to know who they're having sex with, and therefore, trans people have the duty to inform their partners of their status prior to any "major" sexual activity taking place (what qualifies as "major" is debatable; I would say anything past kissing, definitely anything involving genitalia). I understand that this interferes with a trans person's ability to live their life completely as the gender they've transitioned to, and that is regrettable, but to me, their rights can't come at the cost of anyone else's, and I very much do consider it a right to not be deceived in this regard during sexual activity.

I'm not sure what the best answer is to this problem, but I do believe trans women in female sports pose a serious problem for female athletes. I honestly have no idea what to do about it.

That's all I can think of for now.

EDIT: Oh, right, the gendered-facilities issue. On principle, I am for allowing post-transition trans people to use their identified facilities. However, I think there are some issues when it comes to implementation. For one, I am very serious about the line being drawn at post-transition; pre-transition trans people should not be allowed to use their identified facilities. Second, not all transition procedures are equally successful at achieving a "convincing look." To me, this mainly comes down to cis people's discomfort, and while that may sound like a petty thing, so long as we're going to have gendered facilities at all, it needs to be respected. The problem of sexual predators abusing such policies is a secondary, but more serious issue, but you can think about it like this: if one of the main reasons for having gendered facilities is to prevent potential sexual abuse, then it seems to me that it should be considered a main reason for the discussion of trans people using them as well. Essentially, you need to be able to pass as your identified sex if you're going to use that sex's facilities.

LemonCanopy · 2020-01-09T11:45:15+00:00

I don't know entirely what to think about Trans people.

But first and foremost, they are people. And as such they deserve respect and dignity just like anyone else.

They are also marginalized, and they are a lot of people hell bent on taking that respect and dignity away from them, so extra attention towards Trans people is warranted when trying to ensure everyone has equal rights and opportunities.

Basically, think of me as an "intersectional feminist" but without the misandry and who is somewhat against affirmative action. We need to spend more resources to remove roadblocks that are unique to large uniquely oppressed groups. But we should not be "balancing the scales" by directly giving resources or unfair opportunities to those groups.

That said, personally, I have a lot of issues with Trans people. I'm a heterosexual male and my sexual preference is based on sex, not gender. So, I find Transwomen to be extremely creepy. Like they're undeservedly trying to get my sexual attention. It doesn't matter what their actual intentions are, it's how my instincts perceive it and that's why I find it creepy.

Transmen, I don't find creepy as much. But, instinctively again, I value women more than men so having a woman intentionally destroy all femininity in her feels like a tragedy.

And in addition, trans people tend to be immersed in feminist ideology and therefore misandry.

So, for all three of these reasons, I try to avoid trans people as much as possible in my personal life.

I am also skeptical of the glorification of trans people in certain social circles. Especially the promotion of transexual operations in teens. Transexual operations make you sterile and are typically irreversible. Wouldn't it be best to promote teens to accept themselves as they are for things that are so costly to change?

I understand the effectiveness of HRT is best the younger you start, but what is even the point? Being able to convincingly look like the other gender? But you can never be the other gender, because much of society only care about your biological sex anyway. And trying to appear as the opposite sex to those people is to be intentionally deceitful.

On the topic of gender pronouns I would prefer using the pronoun of their biological sex, but I will usually use whatever is most accepted in the social environment I'm in because I don't care that much. Mostly, I'll just avoid talking about them or being in the same social circle as them.

But I think that trans rights is part of men's rights. Both transwomen (on account of discrimination against them due to their biological sex) and transmen (on account of discrimination against them due to their gender identity).

And on account of this being a left wing subreddit. I expect we will be supportive of some issues specific to transitioning.

However, there is one point of contention:

I think it is not OK to expect or demand that men be comfortable around transwomen.

In particular, no one should be forced to use a pronoun for some else that the speaker is not comfortable with. It's a bit of hairsplitting, especially since I usually use the person's preferred pronoun even if I don't like it. But to force people's speech in this way seems very oppressive to me.

LeftNatTay · 2020-01-21T04:10:02+00:00

I like Trans People, especially Trans Men (I'm gay so I'm biased). Trans Men are super super important to Men's Activism and should be supported

Aaod · 2020-01-07T21:54:05+00:00

I dealt with some when I was younger and they just wanted to be treated like everyone else and treated me with respect so I was perfectly fine doing so. They provided some good insights on gender and were in general decent people. Now though half the ones I have dealt with are nuts and or assholes that fit into the some bad tumblr or college liberal stereotype and want me to do stuff like violate the English language. What in the hell happened in the 10 year period to cause such a massive change?

Strikester101 · 2020-01-07T21:09:23+00:00

Trans-people are wonderful. I think this sub should tackle issues faced by trans-women and trans-men as well, along with men's issues.

TERFs (or FARTs) are garbage.

orbitaldecayed · 2020-01-07T22:51:38+00:00

Women are not a marginalized class of people. Lol what?

romulusnr · 2020-01-08T02:05:40+00:00

I would say they don't think transwomen count as real women because they started life as men and therefore don't know what "real" women have to "deal with."

Melthengylf · 2020-01-08T15:34:07+00:00

I was talking the other day with an amab enby about how the issues of disposability are even worse amongst trans, and I agree.

liztu_june · 2020-01-08T17:20:51+00:00

I am fine with them. A lot of fully transition male trans people deal with the same problems we do.

aaronbee2010 · 2020-01-08T01:57:37+00:00

Trans people are completely fine with me. Somebodies identity matching or not matching their sex chromosomes has no reason to matter to me.

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