I wish it were easier to take part in consent culture, but women and men make it hard

34T_y3r_v3ggi3s · 2022-04-01T00:01:49+00:00

Even when women do make the first move, it is incredibly conspicuous and the ability to know when you're suddenly being hit on when you're on the autism spectrum like me is next to impossible, especially if she's being incredibly subtle the way women like to be. I had a really hot girl at the beach about 12 years ago ask me what the best pickup line I knew was, and according to my parents she wouldn't stop talking about me when she saw me in the water. When she made a move I dropped the ball completely. Then that doesn't even count the other times for women to make their interest known (very subtlety I may add) to me and for me to not really get it because of my harder time reading people. As a result I've never had a relationship. I'm attractive but I just have really bad luck with women along with the lack of opportunities to meet new chicks in my adulthood. It doesn't always have to do with looks, contrary to what more hopeless echo chambers make it out to be.

But in short, yes. Women most definitely should make their intentions well known. I've missed out on several relationships since A. Men aren't really taught proper etiquette around women and then wonder why many men are socially awkward around women. And B). Many women can't relate to being on the autism spectrum and as a result I've had some awkward encounters where I probably turned her off by exhibiting quirky or awkward behavior even though before she was showing interest, often leading to guys like me dropping the ball.

Edit: I meant INCONSPICUOUS not conspicuous. My bad.

TheSpaceDuck · 2022-04-01T00:48:01+00:00

There's a pretty foolproof strategy to never accidentally sexually assaulting anyone: just ask before you do anything

Not really, asking is also considered sexual harassment.

The real problem here is the way we see male and female sexuality. While we see (and should see) female sexuality as something that should be encourage and expressed freely, on the other hand we see male sexuality as being predatory in nature. The amount of pressure on the media to see male sexuality in that way doesn't help. Speech concerning male sexuality in the media is very reminiscent of speech concerning the sexuality of Muslims in alt-right media.

This has two consequences. The first, as you mentioned, is that anything is considered sexual harassment or outright assault coming from a man. The second and just as important, is that even outright sexual assault coming from a woman is not seen as being so. Even the CDC doesn't list it as rape when a woman rapes a man.

I can tell you that in a normal society it's all about communication. Not only one side should be sure they have enthusiastic consent, the other side should also speak out the moment they are not comfortable. Normally that should be enough. The problem is: in a society that sees any action from one gender as inherently predatory and any action from the other gender as innocent (even if predatory), that no longer works.

While I agree that "women making the first move more often" could be a step in the right direction, I don't think in our current society it would be a solution. Because it would just lead to a lot of men being sexually assaulted by a demographic that was taught they deserve a "yes" and not taught to respect a "no". The video I linked is a perfect example.

ExMuzzy · 2022-04-01T01:47:32+00:00

And the times a woman has initiated I have bot once been asked for consent

friendlysouptrainer · 2022-04-01T13:57:10+00:00

Parts of your post are incredibly similar to a link I came across recently that discusses dating experiences for men.

The solution I saw offered to this dynamic elsewhere on reddit is that ambiguous social cues are a feature, not a bug for women. It allows them to filter out socially inept men from their dating pool.

I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on this.

eldred2 · 2022-04-01T15:56:41+00:00

There's a pretty foolproof strategy to never accidentally sexually assaulting anyone: just ask before you do anything,

Yes and no. If you are unattractive, just asking is treated as an assault.

International_Crew89 · 2022-04-01T00:31:22+00:00

I think the whole sentiment that if they ask first they'll get labeled as "sluts" is really a self-fulfilling prophecy; if it were normalized (ie. A whole lot of women champion the feminist notion that they have just as much agency as us, but in a constructive direction for once) then the slut-shaming would be a lot less prevalent.

iainmf · 2022-04-01T04:31:39+00:00

On a personal level, you should take care when being sexual with another person. Don't continue if they don't want you to.

More broadly, consent culture treats people as if they are fragile. But people are anti-fragile. That is, like your immune system, people get stronger by facing adversity and overcoming.

And like your immune system, if you are not exposed to small amounts pathogens/allergens, you become incredibly vulnerable to them when you are.

We should protect people from traumatic events. That means they have to experience awkward and uncomfortable situations to make them more resilient.

Skirt_Douglas · 2022-04-02T16:40:29+00:00

I can’t help but feel like the bigger problem is how we have normalized a Draconian mentality where if a guy missteps and crosses a line, he “sexually assaulted” her and deserves to be punished for it. Why can’t we just set boundaries without getting the police involved?

If you and a person are cuddling, you should already be way past wanting to throw that person in jail if they presume too much, and moved into just saying “Uhhh, can we not do that?”

That’s how I’ve experienced it on dates, they say “Actually, I’d rather get to know you a little more before we go that far” or something to that effect, and then I go “Right, of course” and then we move on because we’re adults and that’s how adults communicate and act.

If we are at the point where any sort of line crossing is met with “WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? FOR I HAVE BEEN VIOLATED! GET ME THE POLICE!” Then I think we’re already at game over.

Luckily, I really done think the vast majority are so childish that they flip out if you don’t ask for permission ever single step of the way.

revente · 2022-04-01T06:43:19+00:00

Frankly i think that the 'consent culture' is dumb.

Instead we should teach the 'escalation ladder' - it's a concept found in some older PUA material. And while 99% of the stuff from PUA is either sleazy or just silly this is actually golden.

It teaches that when you're trying to have sex with someone you should go about it by escalating your touches in small, incremental steps. Start with something super innocent like shaking hands or high fiving. Then progress through intentional touches like caressing hands or thighs. And finally, go to the spicy stuff.

The thing is - the progression is very logical. And there are dozens of steps. It builds comfort and trust.

If we teach it to everyone - we can assure that consent won't be breached.

Boys will know not to skip steps, so they won't do anything super aggressive suddenly.

Girls will know what is coming up next, so they'd be able to stop unwelcome advances even before they happen.

Here you can find this escalation ladder summarised:

https://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/hlmra/dicarlo_escalation_ladder_concise_and_emphasized/

Algoresball · 2022-04-01T19:15:19+00:00

There’s no a acknowledgement that this is a lot of boy’s experience

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boy-accused-asking-touch-girls-26185666

politicsnerd66 · 2022-04-03T07:46:15+00:00

Ok I know this is a couple days old, but here’s my opinion on this as a woman:

If you’re making out with a guy and he asks to touch your boobs, that’s an appropriate situation. If I’m making out with a guy, I wouldn’t be offended that he asked to touch my boobs. I’d be appreciative that he asked. Any woman that gets offended over this should just not get with anyone sexually or romantically unless you want to wait until marriage or whatever. Making out can easily become sexual.

Now, when it comes to dating apps, it’s better to not bring up sex til the 3rd date it you’re looking for romance. If it’s just casual sex, then I assume it’s difference. After the third date, it’s more than appropriate to bring sex up. If she gets all upset about that, she’s the one acting weird, not you. Does she want you as a friend or a potential romantic partner? If she doesn’t want to talk about sex, she shouldn’t date. No one is forcing her to. Reddit is so far off from reality. Most women won’t act like you’re a perv if you ask to touch their boobs while making out or bring up the topic of sex on the third date.

BloomingBrains · 2022-04-01T06:53:16+00:00

This would be perfect for a socially inept person like me – why try to use ambiguous social clues to figure out what she wants when I can just ask and see?

This is an aside, but I personally consider people who do rely on ambiguous social clues to possess real social ineptitude. Relying on clear communication is much more intelligent and courteous since it all but eliminates the possibility of taking things too far.

Let's say she's not interested – what do you think are the odds that she'll be offended and think you're creepy if you just ask "can I touch your boobs?"

Probably high. Obviously not all women are like this, but it is very normalized nowadays to treat men like creeps for an unwanted advance. Even if its something as simple as respectfully asking to go out and then leaving them alone when they say no.

Let's say she is interested. A common truism is that "women like confidence", and like it or not there is a decent chunk of women who would be turned off by a guy not having the confidence to just go for it.

I'm planning on writing a post deconstructing the masculine ideal of "confidence" at some point, but in short: confidence isn't the same as knowing, meaning that this hypothetical woman in your example is turned on by the idea that from the guy's perspective, he might be committing sexual assault, but decided to do it anyway. A more empathetic guy who did ask would be less confident but would have higher empathy since he was willing to risk being shamed by asking for consent and showing his lack of confidence.

So, in other words, attraction to confidence supersedes attraction to empathy?

Maybe it's because I don't have rippling abs, but in my experience saying "hey, how about you come over and we watch a movie for 15 minutes and then fuck?" is more effective at getting women to unmatch you than anything else.

That is absolutely what it is.

Now I'm not saying that men are blameless. Even if you're a good guy, she has no way of knowing that.

Not entirely true. There are ways to pick up on things like that. Granted, that does require spending more time around someone than asking a stranger over for Netflix and chill. But that is exactly why I argue that you shouldn't be accepting offers to Netflix and chill in the first place, at least if you're really concerned about about things like safety. There seems to be this narrative that women can have their cake and eat it too: "Society needs to be my guardian and make sure there is a 0% chance of bad men treating me badly, but guys who do try to protect women I'll call niceguys/white knights/neckbeards. At the same time, I want to recklessly engage in risky behaviors with total strangers."

But man, if we want guys to ask first, women absolutely have to stop calling guys creepy when they ask first.

Yeah absolutely. Society needs to decide if guys need to ask or not. If not, we need to have more tolerance for guys misreading the signs. If so, then what you said. Personally, I strongly argue for the latter, however. It's better for female dignity and it is wildly more practical.

tasfa10 · 2022-04-01T02:17:14+00:00

I know this may sound backwards but I find this idea that communication can only be verbal totally silly. If you're cuddling with a woman you don't just jump into kissing or touching her boobs. You'll put your arm around her and you pay attention to how she reacts. If there's any sign that she doesn't like it, take it off. If she does nothing, leave it alone or take it off as well, she can always come closer again if she wants to. If she actually goes further, you can procede. Say she'll hold your hand, maybe you can stroke it. Maybe you can kiss her head. Again, if she goes further, you go further. She may kiss you back, or put her hand in your legs and so on. Remember, if the other person wants it, they're probably not going to be making it difficult for you and they will reciprocate at each step. You just have to make sure you move really slowly and you don't do anything if you're not completely sure she is taking it a step further herself with each of your moves. You build it up step by step. IF SHE'S JUST NOT PROTESTING, THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS RECIPROCATING!!! I don't know if this needs to be spelled out but when someone doesn't push you away it may be out of embarrassment, politeness, fear of confrontation, etc.

Yes, saying all of a sudden "can I touch your boob?" can totally make it uncomfortable for both of you. I've never had a girl ask me "can I grab your dick?" either. It would've been awkward.

My point is: if you need to ask, then just don't do it because you're not sure the other person wants it.

I do understand some people aren't that great at reading social clues, body language, etc. While what I described may come naturally to some it may need a very conscious effort for others. If you don't trust you capacity to read non verbal communication, yes, always default to verbal communication. Just be aware than even then, you will always need basic communication skills. A "yes" can still be said with hesitation, it can still be insincere and it doesn't always mean you should procede. There's no way to avoid the fact that social skills are necessary to be intimate with someone.

ImpetuousWombat · 2022-03-31T22:39:14+00:00

"can I touch your boobs" is exactly what you should try in that scenario. Stop overthinking it. She'll think whatever she thinks, you can't predict it. Do what you believe to be the right thing and let the chips fall where they may.

Source: married 4 yrs to the woman I said "can I kiss you" to in the rain

Nalatu · 2022-04-01T05:48:30+00:00

Let's say she's not interested – what do you think are the odds that she'll be offended and think you're creepy if you just ask "can I touch your boobs?"

If she's not interested, she's not interested. She'll still be offended and think you're creepy if you do it without asking. And if you never ask, you might get to cuddle longer, but then you're stuck wondering if maybe you could have gone further, if only you had asked. By asking then at least you know you've done no harm. It hurts to know that someone else thinks poorly of you, especially when you are doing your best. But if you know you genuinely did your best and what you honestly believed was right, then that's when you have to stop giving weight to that other person's opinion (especially when following it would create some bad habits for future relationships).

Now, I don't want to make it sound like you should never care about what other people think or that other people's opinions don't matter - you should, and they do. It is a very real possibility that someone who doesn't like you will decide to harm you in some way, like treating you like crap or spreading false rumors about you. That's true of all interactions, including with other men.

However, you don't need to bear the shame or guilt of someone else's condemnation of your best efforts. At some point you have to judge yourself by your own moral standards and be content with knowing that even if you can't please others, you at least stayed true to yourself. If you believe in consent, if it's important for you to know that you've made every effort not to sexually assault someone, if you would rather it be awkward then learn later that you hurt that person - then treat it like a personal moral standard. No different than refusing to drink alcohol. Sometimes following your own moral standards is awkward, and that's okay.

Let's say she is interested. A common truism is that "women like confidence", and like it or not there is a decent chunk of women who would be turned off by a guy not having the confidence to just go for it.

Remember that the purpose of dating is to figure out if you're compatible. Would some women prefer if you just did the thing and waited until they expressed refusal before backing off? Yes. But do YOU want to be with a woman who feels that way? Are YOU comfortable with an opt-out standard in all interactions? If so, that's fine - as long as both of you are okay with it and you both respect it when the other opts out, you can have a relationship like that.

However, if that kind of standard would make you constantly doubt yourself, then you don't need to be in a relationship with someone who wants that just because they're interested in you. Don't settle for a relationship that doesn't fit your needs just because you're afraid no one else will come after.

a-man-from-earth · 2022-04-01T00:28:45+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2022-03-31T23:13:54+00:00

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SuninMyPalm · 2022-04-01T18:18:04+00:00

damn a made up character from thousands of years ago knows the solution of a major problem in society

Title	I wish it were easier to take part in consent culture, but women and men make it hard
Author	Chad_Nauseam
Upvotes	138
Comments	131
Date	March 31, 2022 9:23 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/tta58y/i_wish_it_were_easier_to_take_part_in_consent/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/i-wish-it-were-easier-to-take-part-in-consent.1109221 https://theredarchive.com/post/1109221

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