~ archived since 2018 ~
Popular
Other
skewbuh
[–]Twitcher77 89 points90 points91 points 12 years ago (42 children) | Copy Link
Feminists will just blame this on the "patriarchy" and say that males are killing other males, so the homicide rates are excusable. They will blame men on the workplace fatalities because women aren't encouraged to work in dangerous fields like men are. They will say that since women attempt suicide more often then men, women have it worse, or that since men use more fatal methods it's there fault or something.
It's all happened before when I posted the last male privilege chart on Tumblr. (I added a source, don't worry.)
The entire thing is such a bummer. The human apathy is abundant in feminism when it comes to the other half of the world's population.
[–]AlexReynard 40 points41 points42 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
What I saw in those replies was, "But WOMEN WOMEN WOMEN WOMEN! How dare you think we're not the alpha victim!
[+][deleted] 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]pajamajamminjamie 12 points13 points14 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
tumblr is a stupid website, people just reblog content and no community discussion is had. it needs to be forgotten.
[–]Meistermalkav 10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
"How dare you think that I as a mostly white mostly weekend feminist am not suffering more then you! I have most likely gone to colleague, a feat that is unavailable for most people in the us due to increased cost of living, I come from a solid middle class background, and I try to fill the void in my life with shopping. To counterbalance this, let me try to get as close as possible to some real suffering women, but then realize that they are usually not content to just blame men, they want real answers, and if they blame anybody, they usually blame people who look a lot like me, and they do not like slogans like blame the patriarchy, and that would force me to give up my comfy middle class lifestyle. Man, I just wish I could get daddy to pay my way through colleague, while doing zilch.
Wait, a solution arrises! In the form of female studies, I can just take those, and like get full credit for attending, while simultaneously feeling disadvantaged, right?
Oh, wow, womens studies tells me that I am disadvantaged? I never knew that! Also, it tells me that I could take full credit for the fear and suffering people with the same gender had just by being that gender? Wow, it is so usefull!
Wow, theree are fringes in my chosen movement, that advocate in rather strong language that all those not of my gender should be set back, because of the freedoms they enjoy? Wow, I am allowed to be against something, and not get yelled at for being the 1 %? Is it going to get any better? I mean, obviously, I am not totally against that other gender, because there are some of that other gender that I like, and despite frequent claims from the radical fringes that only sex with them is not rape/totally safe, and maybe I had not tried it that way, but heck, I like the other gender! One of my parents is of the other gender, and most likely supports me heavily throughout my life, there are those of the other gender that are friendly to me and nice, and of course there are those who are willing to have sexytime with me, but I get to pick and choose, because I am strong and independant that way. Oh, I dared voice a counterpoint against my movements stance, because usually a personal experience directly contradicted that? Now THEY, the only people left that really like me, come down on me? I better change my views, and fall in line again.
Because otherwise, I get tossed out, and then everybody will tell me I am priviledged and a traitor to the movement, and I will have no more group for support, and proof of suffering, and so on and so forth.
What was our difference to the MRM again?"
[–]AlexReynard 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
o.o
...damn. That was pretty effing scorching.
[–]VagrantDreamer 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The thing that always gets me is that feminism has the concept of 'internalised misogyny' for scenarios when a woman acts in a way that works against women (or feminism itself as is often the case). Surely men who will only perform violence on other men suffer from their own internalised misandry in that they only consider men to deserve physical violence? Likewise in the case of suicide, surely it could be argued that men are more likely to hate themselves enough to take their own lives. As for the workplace, if a man risks his own life to earn money (and possibly provide for a family), isn't that also saying that he undervalues his own life?
Furthermore, all of these things relate to traditional masculinity, which feminism claims to fight against, so if feminism is to practice as it preaches, it should embrace these statistics instead of trying to cover it up since this is all part of the "patriarchy" they seek to end, which "hurts men too". I think what threatens tumblr SJWs is the idea that it's very often a case of "hurts men more", and god forbid they actually have to consider that when they're so invested in a worldview of rampant female victimisation.
[–]Skyty199123 points 12 years ago* [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link
I think it's hilarious how they act like its worse to "attempt suicide"... If it was the other way around (more women committed suicide) they'd also blame it on "patriarchy"... They always have some form of "rationalization" as to why everything is mans fault.
[–]cody_au17 points 12 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link
Sometimes I feel like they don't even blame men as a whole.
They blame man. Whatever man happens to be in front of them at that exact second. Every man is literally Hitler. I don't have to have done anything at all or have any power at all somehow it is just my fault for existing.
[–]Skyty199113 points 12 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
I couldn't agree more.
Apparently my peaceful existence is somehow an act of oppression.
It seems that the objective is no longer about true equality but rather actively punishing men through affirmative action.
And of course, I'll be labelled a bigoted-sexist for only wanting equality and not for wanting to actively oppress and punish men.
[–]noprotein 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I had to unsubscribe from some of my favorite subs because of matriarchy (an example being /r/anarchism where literally no matter what comes out of your mouth, you're wrong, oppressive, and a trans/woman hater).
[–]Skyty1991 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's just like politicians playing the "racism" card.
"Oh crap, they made a valid point... to which I have no response! Therefore they must be a racist!"
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
They always have some form of "rationalization" as to why everything is mans fault.
It all makes sense when you accept that this is a religion and they are fundamentalists.
With a fundy their own personal religious belief is always the answer even if it's trying to explain two contradictory ideas at the same time.
For instance: god answers your prayers; proof he exists and is wise and just. God does not; proof he's wise enough to know you don't need that one answer, which means he exists and is just.
Women are killed: patriarchy. Men are killed: patriarchy.
Men get default custody: patriarchy. Women get default custody: patriarchy.
It's nonfalsifiable. Which means it is a belief system revolving around pure faith.
[–]ElfmanLV 26 points27 points28 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
The difference between MRA and feminism is basically what you described.
Feminists will philosophise all day and theorize everything, then they blame, blame, blame and do nothing if it doesn't involve the benefit of women.
MRA? We spot those who are at risk and we raise awareness, try to fix the problem. It doesn't matter whether the patriarchy exists or not, it doesn't matter if men are to blame for men's faults. If someone is homeless, dying in a war, or killing themselves, people need to know and they need to be helped. Period.
These are facts, and unfortunate facts, and we need to change them. No theory, no doctrine, no nothing.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]ElfmanLV 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Remember the lecture at UofT that big red and her colleagues pulled the fire alarm on? That's a start. Men's Rights, unfortunately, is a relatively new concept. They're raising awareness by speaking to those who are young and open minded, those who will influence others through educational means in the future. This is definitely a good start. Increasing awareness on prevalence of prostate cancer even. Although, I would argue myself to say that some of these things aren't exclusive to MRA, since many of the lecturers are also feminists.
[+]Thai_Hammer -5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
MRA? We spot those who are at risk and we raise awareness
Yeah like Movember and Occidental college, real action and awareness.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
A girl I know posted one of those "these things are only true because of patriarchy" responses to this image. This same girl lied about being raped, committed paternity fraud for years, and has a son. I fear for his future with his mother truly believing this BS.
[–]cxj 18 points19 points20 points 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
From this tumblr:
"women care more about the mess they make from a suicide, and so use less lethal methods."
ACTUALLY: When women "attempt" suicide, they are seeking attention. When men commit suicide, they genuinely want to die.
[–]hglman 25 points26 points27 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
When a person attempts suicide, they are seeking attention, when they commit suicide they genuinely want to die.
You make a stronger point leaving out the genders.
[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Actually he described the trends pretty accurately. I think anyone who harms themselves is crying for help, but men generally tend to use more direct methods of self-harm. Women generally attempt suicide as a cry for help, men generally do it to kill themselves. This doesn't discount the severity of self-harm or suicide for men or women, or imply that it's manly to kill yourself or womanly to cry for help using attempted suicide.
[–]hglman 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
The method you choose is much more critical to what you want to get from the act of suicide. You derive on each case what they wanted and how the attempt was made. That doesn't require gender. A result irregardless of gender that the method used tells you about the goals of the attempt allows you to suggest there is a something causing men to choose to be more effective in there rather than if you are a man you will make a stronger attempt.
[–]noprotein 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
How many men "cut"? Gender is pretty important in discussions of self harm and suicide in my opinion. You don't get much warning signs sometimes with men and then bam, dead. Whereas with women (girls really) you get much more slow self-torture(?) I guess.
[–]hglman 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I have never met a woman who cut, i have meet men. We should probably apply some science here.
[–]noprotein 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I've known 6 females and 0 males personally. Every single source I've read (without fail) has said females represent between 50-70% of reported cutting. I won't bother linking the ones without sources/studies but if you google, you'll find the same.
Here's a study from 2002 which at least backs up numbers: 1
From Psychology Today which sites full text from a 2008 study "you find that 24.3% of girls were self-injuring, compared with 8.4% of the boys." 2
Finally from Boystown hotline (they cite from a shared gender hotline): 79 percent of self-injury callers are under 18 9 percent of self-injury callers are between 19 and 23 85 percent of self-injury callers are female Females who are 18 or younger make up 67 percent of all self-injury callers - See more at: 3
From what it seems like to me is quite apparent: Boys are more likely to self-injure due to frustration or sadness resulting from an event (such as breakup or argument) like punch a wall whereas 7/10 girls have body image or self-worth issues and self-harm by cutting.
[–]cxj 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
That depends on the point I want to make. Yes, of course there are women who genuinely want to die and men just looking for attention, but they are the exceptions, not the rule.
My point is that GENERALLY speaking, women are more likely to use less lethal suicide methods because they are crying for "help" (read: attention), whereas GENERALLY speaking most men use more lethal methods because they actually genuinely do not want to live anymore.
[–]Hypnosomnia 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Why do we have to make this a dichotomy in which only those who actually manage to die have genuine suicidal feelings and those who fail are just seeking attention?
Choosing a method of suicide is not only about those feelings. For example, accessibility and ignorance play a great role in that. Shooting sports are a male-dominated field so naturally men have a greater accessibility to firearms meaning that they actually possess firearms and know how to use them. In China, women have a much greater probability to commit suicide because of the high accessibility of pesticides (as expected, cultural factors play a role, too).
While looking at suicide statistics, it is easy to forget that ordinary people don't have that accurate knowledge of the death rates of suicide methods and that suicide attempts, were they succesful or not, are not always carefully and rationally planned. Someone trying to jump off a cliff or a bridge may think of it as a great way to kill oneself (if they actually do it: if it's a public place, someone is probably going to try to persuade them not to jump), but in reality that is not the case: there's a high chance that they not only stay alive but are left with permanent disabilities, too.
That being said, the "oh but it's actually about WOMYN" argument is pointless. Since men often choose a more fatal method of suicide, there should be more suicide prevention initiatives specially for men.
[–]cxj 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
We disagree, but I am disappointed that you are being down voted because Imo you are contributing quite a bit to the discussion. I up voted you. Thx for your replies! :)
[–]kadivs 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Also speaks for the intelligence of whoever said this (I mean, besides the obvious). There are so many ways to kill oneself that don't leave any more mess than the body. Drowning, toaster in bathtub, noose, injecting air, poison, pill overdose, and the probably most pleasant way, asphyxiation through helium. And that are just some examples.
Why does everyone just think of gunshot or jumping in front of trains / from buildings?
Last time I posted this picture on Tumblr, I got hundreds of hate messages saying that I should be killed and raped (ironic huh?). One of the main excuses feminists used in the messages for why we can just disregard these facts was, "It's just the patriarchy backfiring on you men."
[–]Biyorne 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I was going to write a serious reply, and then realized I accidentally typo'd "feminists" as "feminshits" and lost it.
[–]kinyutaka 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Okay. If women attempt suicide more than men, but men outnumber successful attempts 3 to 1, then the obvious point is that women suck at killing themselves. Or they aren't really trying to do so.
[–]jokersmild -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
They just need more training to meet the average.
[–]Theophagist 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I just had a small discussion if you call it that with a redditer who claimed that not patriarchy but male culture itself caused war, suicide, and workplace deaths.
So blinded by privilege they can't see what male culture does for the world every day.
[–]HappyGerbil88 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
and say that males are killing other males, so the homicide rates are excusable.
Back in the 80s, when street violence was escalating, a lot of racist people dismissed it as black-on-black violence, so the rest of us shouldn't care about it. Basically what feminists do with male-on-male violence.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]strangestdude 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The patriarchy is an unfalsifiable philosophical theory - based on the non-positivism approach to sociology. So I agree that everything can be framed as originating from the patriarchy. However it's just a representation of reality, it's not the 'objective truth'.
And I think it's a theory that leads to victim blaming men, and the marginalization of issues affecting men - like others have pointed out.
I don't think that feminist theory is the only lens through which to examine gender related social issues.
[–]sixofthebest 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The goddess worship system doesn't mean everything is great for women, it means women are expected to fulfill certain roles in society (object of desire, lover, family head) which leads to women doing all the mundane tasks and women being pressured into always self conscious of their appearance and being treated as special snowflake when they don't need help. Goddess worship systems are bad for everyone.
[+][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
personally I don't think any of you have a clue what's going on. both the women and the men.
It's more about evolution than patriarchy whatever the fuck that made up term is meant to mean these days.
[–]cody_au18 points 12 years ago* [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link
Feminists will say:
More women TRY to kill themselves.
Men get paid more so of course they'll die at work more.
Men are homicide victims because they kill each other.
Men are homeless because they are abusive and get kicked out of home.
Source: None. (Edit: surprisingly, almost exactly the same list as another comment)
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
The first three are actually true, more women attempt suicide, men on average get paid more (for a variety of non-discriminatory reasons) and men are the majority of homicide victims and murderers.
How they extrapolate that to mean that men aren't facing problems by killing themselves more, working harder and more dangerous jobs, or committing and being victim to violent crime at higher rates is a mystery to me.
[–]xanderjanz 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Whats the causation between being paid more and workplace deaths? Surely the highest paying jobs have very low death and injury rates.
[–]13e1ieve 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Many dangerous jobs are relatively high paid. Consider deep sea fishing 'deadliest catch', choke setting on logging, constructions, underwater welding as examples.
for the skill and education required they are very highly paid.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Hazard pay jobs etc. high stress, long hours = poor health. Cushy high paying jobs are rare and amazingly difficult to get.
[–]coolsox3 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Now men may get paid more but I doubt how much they make affects dying in a workplace.
More women may "try" to kill themselves, as attention seeking behavior. Having dated such women, don't even bother trying to argue this. Unless you've been involved with such behavior, you won't understand. Knowing your father will be home in 1 hour, and ODing on pills so he finds you on the floor, is not a real suicide attempt. Trying to kill yourself with people in the house is not a real suicide attempt. Knowing people will find you, or doing a shitty job is not a real suicide attempt. Anyone who has been around troubled young women can vouch for this. It's manipulation, attention seeking behavior, JUST like suicide threats, and fuck anyone else who says differently. Having experienced this FIRST HAND, and feeling the long term effects of having gone through something like this, unprepared, is something I can personally vouch for. This statistic "women TRY to kill themselves more" HURTS feminism's cause, only they don't realize that.
[–]Ivan_Fackoff 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think that's called rationalization hamster.
[–]ComicBookAfterlife 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
These are mostly stupidity-related statistics.
[–]ArcanErasmus 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
I don't want to be the ignorant dumbass who sounds like a feminist, but can someone use this to support an argument? It's late, and I just don't see where to go from here. Is this about victimization? I can understand that. How can we use this to further an argument or goal? (I just want to learn and discuss pls be kind)
[–]pboyle0010 points 12 years ago [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link
Aside from the first phrasing in your comment, I agree; I'd like to learn more. Can someone well-versed in the men's rights discussion hit this with some stronger knowledge than how the feminists on tumblr rebuke this?
[+][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
combat: most men are in combat suicide: most men are generally seen to be unable to seek help (nothing to do with gender roles, this is just basic psychology), also heavily military based as a lot of soldiers kill themselves.
women are better safer drivers but you don't see people running towards political socialogical models when that gets used.
I don't know much more other than the self harm stats really. Most people in an abusive relationship whereby the husband kills himself don't know how to ask for help.
women feel more able to access the help available to them due to their being more educational material out there about the subject matter.
if people want a single cause tough.life isn't like that.
[–]smariroach 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
most men are generally seen to be unable to seek help (nothing to do with gender roles, this is just basic psychology)
I'd say it has quite a bit to do with gender roles. It is partially because of the idea that a man should be strong, and should not show vulnerability that it is hard for many men to seek help. Good comment though.
[+][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
I'm saying gender roles are a natural part of our makeup anyway. Sure they get exaggerated by movies and friends etc.
But if gender roles are to blame for this then society is insane because we don't exist to all be unilateral pages of boring grey. Anyone who thinks thats a good thing will do more bad than good.
suicide is an extreme situation because its completely unnatural to our ability to rationalise. its a misunderstanding of being human more than anything else but yes I do agree more women will seek help because of their social peers. No concious effort causes it though.
[–]smariroach 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Sure. I still believe that many aspects of gender roles have considerable more to do with culture than with integral natural characteristics, and that men "should be tough and not go whining to others if they feel depressed" is very much a cultural gender role, and not needed. It's where the sub-conscious effort kicks in when you really see how ingrained gender roles can be.
[–]snyper7 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
women are better safer drivers
Is that actually the case? I remember reading somewhere that men were more often involved in accidents, but it's because men drive considerably more than women do and that men and women are either equally safe drivers, or men were even slightly safer.
[+][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
you could ad hoc that statistic all you want tbh. It's irrelevent to the point I was making. Which was that no-one really questions it enough to see a problem using it as accepted fact.
[–]atred 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Not an argument, but a legitimate question: if men have it better, as many people claim, why do they commit more suicides, why are they most likely to be homeless?
(edit: actually this is silly, it's about small section of male population that ends up in the street or commit suicide, it doesn't tell much about the general population)
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
What is the definition they are using for homeless there? I've personally never seen a homeless female in my entire life. Granted I'm not in some huge city or anything, but I've just never seen one.
[–][deleted] 17 points18 points19 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Much more likely to be in shelters, not on street corners.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Homeless doesn't necessarily mean living on the streets, it's a state of having an irregular living situation. If you don't have a house/apartment/hotel room that you can stay in at night regularly, you would qualify as homeless. This includes people who use homeless shelters regularly.
[–]JTFR 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You have, you just didn't know it.
[+][deleted] 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]assemblethenation 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There's nothing wrong with working to right a wrong, even if it's just for a single gender. The problem arises when those same people work to solve one gender's problem at the expense of the other and even block attempts to solve problems for the other gender.
Even egalitarianism is attacked by those same people.
[–]Bubuloo 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link
Are these statistics per capita or overall?
More men work in 'dangerous' jobs. Therefore is it's overall of course there are more male deaths.
One of the leading causes of homicide is gangs and most gang members are male.
How about we stop making this men vs women and instead worry about the fact that suicide is the third biggest killer in 15-24 year olds and the growing number of homelessness which includes men, women and children.
[–][deleted] 28 points29 points30 points 12 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
The concept of universal male privilege is harmful to men everywhere, yet widespread. Contradicting this claim that men are privileged and don't face major hardships for being men is central to the debate of men's rights.
[+][deleted] -8 points-7 points-6 points 12 years ago* (16 children) | Copy Link
That's a straw man's representation of the theory of male privilege. More accurately, male privilege describes the unearned social, economic, and political advantages or rights that are granted to them solely on the basis of their sex; argue against that, don't blatantly misstate the opposition..
EDIT: Note I'm not defending the theory. Comments speak louder than downvotes, kids.
[–]ElfmanLV 11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Men have unearned disadvantages that are granted to them solely on the basis of their sex, what should we call that?
[+][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I'm afraid I don't follow, would you mind rephrasing?
[–]ElfmanLV 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Being a man has its advantages, but it also has its disadvantages. While men get ostracized for having "male privilege", what do we call our disadvantages?
Being a woman has its disadvantages, and feminism has framed that into being a "victim" of "patriarchy", being "marginalized", being a "minority group", but they discount that women have female privilege all the same. I'm challenging this dichotomy.
[–]noprotein 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
We should call it women privilege as it's directly opposing those stereotypes or male disadvantageous predispositions.
[–]13e1ieve 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Consider the info-graphic: all those statistics skewed towards men show there is a 'unearned disadvantage based solely on sex' as well as others such as prison etc..
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Could you name a few of these privileges? Or one?
Like my conditional right to vote? Or maybe my exemption from federal laws to protect the bodily autonomy of minors? Maybe my lack of parental rights in case of accidental pregnancy? Should I go on?
[+][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
I wasn't defending the theory of male privilege, did you even read what I said? Again, at least represent the counterargument accurately.
argue against that, don't blatantly misstate the opposition
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
What's the difference between a claim of universal male privilege and a claim that all men receive unearned social benefits for being men?
[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
men are privileged and don't face major hardships for being men
Hmmmm. Right here. That's not what male privilege is. Unless you didn't know any better, this was a blatant misrepresentation. Argue with facts, don't distort the other side's viewpoint.
You're clearly missing why you're being downvoted, I believe men here are arguing there is no such thing as "male privilege" when levied against the opposite. It's simply, previously established traditional gender roles and likelihoods. Are there some pro's to being a man? Yes. Are there some to being a woman? Yeah.
[+][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm being downvoted because, just like /r/feminism, this place is a circle jerk. Fine, deny the theory, but at least accurately depict what the theory is.
[–]assemblethenation 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
It does not appear 46n2 misrepresented theory of male privilege. Perhaps it was paraphrased or not completely stated, he/she certainly did not purposely misstate it's primary reasoning. Your restatement (which appears abbreviated as well) does not conflict with the original statement.
[+][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Then you clearly don't have an understanding of what male privilege is. I take the most issue with:
men are privileged and don't face major hardships
That's simply not what male privilege is. That is not it's "primary reasoning." It's that males are allowed certain benefits that women are not. Disprove that statement if you disagree, don't assert that male privilege is more radical than what it actually is.
[–]assemblethenation 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I can read, and my level of comprehension is very high. I know what they mean by male privilege.
The theory itself is flawed because it focuses only on the "privilege" and applies it universally to specified demographics. Men's rights stance is that any perceived benefits identified are also accompanied by responsibilities. The model male focused on by male privilege theory is a very limited one and it's unfair for men's ability to discuss the subject to be curtailed because of that "privilege".
Men's hardships don't appear to register at all in feminist's minds except to be ridiculed and minimized. I can see the technical argument you're trying to make that the hardship portion shouldn't be mentioned when discussing the theory, since the theory doesn't mention hardship. However 46n2's first sentence was about the theory itself. The second sentence was more general and was about 2 things: male privilege and that men don't face hardships. At least this is how I read it, and see your argument as pedantic and irrelevant to the discussion.
The privilege theory may have had validity in the past. I did not grow up in an environment where men or women have any kind of special privilege that was not accompanied with real responsibilities and duties. There might be places where the male privilege as described by feminism is maintained, but I have not seen evidence of it nor can I accept feminism's claims without actual evidence.
I have seen a lack of empathy for men first hand in many instances. I have also seen feministic documents overstate/understate data or intentionally misdirect the reader. I have also seen how horrible the legal system is to men. These are the things men's rights is focused on. Organized feminism (including its theories) is only a target of MRA's ire b/c they actively work against men's rights not because they exist.
To me, the theory is ridiculously incomplete if it only describes privileges of a small demographic (rich WASP) and is used on the entire male demographic and used to curb discussions of injured parties. As stated, it deserves little respect and should be forced to back up it's claims with hard data and a complete/honest view of it's sociological source.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
privilege describes the unearned...economic...advantages or rights that are granted to them solely on the basis of their sex
So, a female privilege is that women are less likely to be killed at work? As a country, the US has spent more time protecting women from hearing dirty jokes that about protecting the lives of men.
privilege describes the unearned...political...advantages or rights that are granted to them solely on the basis of their sex
Oh, so like how men were expected to die for the right to vote, but women were just granted it? In 1971 the voting age in the US was reduced from 21 to 18. This was during the Vietnam War and since all these young men were dying overseas it was thought that they should also be allowed to vote.
[+][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You must've skimmed over the most important part of my comment. Reread and then discuss.
[–]Zephs 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Suicide is the third biggest killler... so what? 15-24 year olds really don't die much. They're actually one of the least likely demographics to commit suicide in North America. There's a huge bias to it. Anything natural (like diseases) that kill people before child-bearing age are weeded out through natural selection. The disease that are still around are extremely rare to contract before most people would have had a kid.
Say there's a town of 150 people and only 6 people die in a year. 3 of natural deaths, 2 by suicide, and 1 car crash. Suicide is the second leading cause of death in that town!
The truth is, 15-24 year olds just rarely die. When they DO die, it's an unnatural reason like a car crash or suicide. Men 40-50 years old are still like twice as likely to kill themselves per 100k than young men, it's just they are also at an age where heart disease and cancer starts to hit, too. You'd save more lives by helping 40 year olds with suicidal thoughts than by helping young men.
[–]sixofthebest 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If "patriarchy" treats men much worse than women this begs the question of why did feminism put so much focus on women but so little on men? Do the United Nations and various other feminist informed human rights organizations condemn country that employs mandatory military services? Do they make it an important "men's rights" issue? No they don't treat men's rights as an issue even in this most rightful context. They treat men's slavery as business as usual but when women are the hardest hit the feminist rhetorics come out.
Key words here: business as usual; male suffering is business as usual and feminists are not exempt to this bias, because it was not examined when they were busy developing their little theories to save women. They assumed because "men disadvantaged? You must be kidding" and didn't bother to check the facts. They dig themselves a rabbit hole now they can only lie out of it.
[–]that_other_guy_ -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Good god I'm tired if seeing this image ever other day on here..
I am too frankly. It's like the 6th time I've seen it.
[+]Ivan_Fackoff -6 points-5 points-4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You will look at it and you will like it! Look at it! 'Evil MRAs' will condemn you for not looking at it!
[–]bronkula 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It is important when dealing with this issue to establish some terminology. Namely, if you want to make maximum impact, it must always be referred to as "genital mutilation". This is the term used for female circumcision by opponents of that event, and so should be used for male circumcision as well.
[+]mindscent -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I don't understand what this has to do with male privilege. Obviously these aren't descriptions of privilege... I don't get it...
[–]kadivs 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Imagine someone is saying the title but acting out the quotation marks with his fingers
[+]mindscent 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Ok.
[–]Niggerinasuite -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I could make the same chart for 'white privilege'
[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
I think it's worth noting that you've all just upvoted to hell something submitted by a mod at r/WhiteRights.
http://www.reddit.com/r/WhiteRights/about/moderators
Nicely done.
[–]skewbuh[S] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
All the well poisoning in the world won't change the content of the post. Nice try though.
[+][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
Maybe you should try being less of a racist. Also, the post is garbage to begin with. I didn't expect to get upvoted here, this subreddit is trash, but I feel that people should be made aware that they're agreeing with the opinion of a person who also posts idiotic garbage like this.
If you honestly think that women are to blame for male rates of suicide, homelessness, and homicide, you're out of your fucking mind. It's a problem pervasive of a system dominated by men that can and will marginalize other men because it is, by nature, oppressive. Everyone is marginalized by this system. To imply otherwise is just spreading hokum and sewing animosity.
If the post is garbage what is your critique against it? It sounds like your only point is that this guy is a mod on /r/whiterights.
I do not necessarily condone that sub but we're here for intelligent debate are we not?
[–]skewbuh[S] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Oh come on, you didn't dig back far enough. I've post far, far more distasteful things than that. 3/10 because you got me to reply again. Apply yourself next time.
[+][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
Sorry, I had to stop looking through your post history because it was too depressing, I feel like that one was fairly abysmal though. Next time I'll try to dig deeper.
I did notice you seem to be super obsessed with the jews though. As a jew, I figured I'd try to reassure you -- there is no jewish conspiracy. Or if there is, they haven't let me in on it. Maybe I'm missing out on something...
You've never heard of Israel? Hard to believe in this day and age. That's the easiest example of a jewish conspiracy right there.
[–]johnmarkley -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If you honestly think that women are to blame for male rates of suicide, homelessness, and homicide, you're out of your fucking mind.
None of which is claimed or in any way implied by the original image, so who is this supposed to be addressed to?
[–]YuenHsiaoTieng -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't buy the homeless numbers. George Orwell made this observation in 1932 in "Down and out in Paris and London." Homeless women were virtually non-existent. His estimate was about 9/10 were men. Worst case scenario a woman can always just find a man.
[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
fuck bitches get money
[+]whitey_sorkin -8 points-7 points-6 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Homicide perpetrators = mostly men. Rape perpetrators = mostly men.
[–]Meistermalkav 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Pedophiles in schools: Mostly women. Confirmed false rape accusers: Mostly women. Supporters of male genital mutilation: Mostly women, because it looks better that way.
[+]whitey_sorkin -5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
All bs
[–]Meistermalkav 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
lets put it this way:
I can not remember but two incidents where females working in a school were caught with underage students, and they were stated to be pedophiles / rapists. At the rest of the time, it sounded like their excuse was that they have had a rough marriage, were sick in the head, anything to dodge that label of confirmed pervert.
I would have loved to see some of that "all BS man" outrage back then.
I do not know if you have children, but imagine you had a kid. Imagine, one day, that 12 - 13 year old kid comes home, and tells you it had sex with his or her teacher, but it was ok because the teacher had it rough, your kid was really mature for its age, and your kid was in love with that teacher. would you not want to apply the label of rapist / pedophile / worse to that teacher, regardless of gender?
TWO. Ask around in your circle of female friends how many get their men to drink before they take them home? According to "feminist" standarts, if you are intoxicated in any way shape or form, you are being raped. And yes, I support that definition, even just because I do not have the money to buy all these women drinks.
See what I did there? I took something that you most likely would not see as rape, and used it on a male basis. Of course, now you can say, well, women can't rape, but then I would counter with something males are incapable of doing, such as
people who smoke during pregnancies: Mostly women
and I would have made just as valid an argument as you.
We as men have been trained from birth to not complain, and while all other gender roles change, a straight male is still expected to man up.
She raped you? Dude, she gave you drinks untill you could not see anymore, and then had sex with you. Wish that wopuld have happened to me.
She beat you? Dude, at least you have a girlfriend, wish I would have one.
You were 12 and your goodlooking teacher blew you? Damn, I only had ugly ass teachers, Wish that woman would have blown me.
We are trained to take all of this as a given. If only one of these standarts would be applied to females, hell would break loose.
So, yes, I maybe could not change your opinion, but I could get you to spend a bit of time reading this. Anbd even if you continue to laugh at my arguments, call them silly, and call me a wuss, that's allright.
All I am asking you for is the next time you come across something, ask yourself how it would appear if the genders were reversed. And why you instinctually went for "then, it would be a problem"
[+]whitey_sorkin -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
A single standard makes sense only if men and women were identical psychologically. They're not.
[–]Meistermalkav 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
aah. So, you support the subject that female priviledge, because of a societal standart that classifies women via a sexist route as better then men and in need of special protection, exists? Kind of avant garde but hey, we can use all the support we can get.
But yea.
Psychologically, all of the people are roughly the same. heck, the difference between a male psychological profile to a female psychological profile is roughly equal to the difference between two male psychological profiles.
The single standart makes sense if you want to see if they can piut in the work.
If I have size 50 shoes, and all the army has is size 46 shoes, then feck, I am not equipped to do the job, and rather then going on and forcing the army to bend over backwards to fit me, I go, ok, let me see if I can get in someplace else. There, societies standart is accepted.
But yea, suddenly, there is this unbridgeable gap.
You know what this consists of?
Men are taught, from their child days onward, if you want something, work for it. You want to be smart? Hell, most likely, you will not be captain of the football team. You want to earn a lot of money? Most likely, you will not have enough time to drink all weekends. Want to be a supportive and loving father that takes time off for his children? Most likely, you will earn a bit less because you miss work.
To collect everything that I despise about some feminists:
"Do not tell me what to do, just treat me equally, but still like a lady. "
Yea. want to take time off of work to care for your kid? Society accepts it, and allows you to stay there. menstrual breaks? Oh, you act like a bitch, but how dare anyone point it out? you only want to be a kindergardener, but freak out that you do not get paid the same as a CEO from a decent company?
Yea. The problem, the elephant in the room, is called entitlement. That is, when you ask for something, without deserving / having worked / working for it.
For men, it is unthinkable to be entitled. We are taught from our earliest days on that we have to work,. that we have to make sacriufices, that we have to decide.
And yes, I know of females, even feminists, who thrive under that system, because they can be just as efficient under that system.
But what really grinds my geards is that those examples of excellence, those people who sacrificed a LOT and had it pay off, get praised for being in their area of business, but then get all their accomplishments taken away when some rich entitles white weekend feminist decides to complain that there are too few women in tech, and instead of taking up a code book and startinbg to learn about it, she then slams all the women who have already made it, citing that under those conditions, no women could possibly make it.
Thereby denying those superbly capable women their womanhood.
Yea. You can either go with, there is an unsurpassable psychological barrier between the genders, so women need to be cuddled and have training wheels, without any responsibilities.
or, you can just go "these women complaining that they need to get in there need to get their shit together", because there are preccedents.
Augusta Ada Byron King, Countess of Lovelace
Adele Goldstine
Grace Brewster Murray Hopper
Marianne Laqueur
Marlyn Meltzer Kathleen Antonelli
Jean Bartik
Betty Holberton
Marlyn Meltzer
Frances Spence
The list goes on and on and on and on. All those women who excelled, before anybody just explkained to them that there were psychological differences between men and women.
They excelled because they were women, and feck me, they met EVERY standart which was thrown against them.
Now, consider this: back then, we had all the pioneers in women in science. We had women in every end of the spectrum, who were exceptional.
what do we have now? Women who demand that the standarts are lowered, but only for them. Women who want to be treated the same, yet who shy away from having the same responsibilities. Women who are entitled, selfish, and who fail to seperate critique of women ( shit like "women can't program computers" is not ok) from critique of their work ethic ( "if you want to have a career in IT, you better say good bye to your social life" is OK).
Yea. There are insurpassable differences between men and women. And surprisingly, we no longer have exceptional women.
I am glad the pioneers of Feminism and the first women in IT do not have to see what this turned into.
[+]whitey_sorkin -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm going to assume English is not your first language, given that there are dozens and dozens of typos in your comment. If you think that men and women are fundamentally the same psychologically then we will never see eye to eye my friend; I believe men and women are vastly different mentally and that treating them exactly the same is misguided. Ironically, you go way back in history, to a time when we didn't pretend men and women are identical, and praise the olden days. So why do you, and most on this sub, want to treat men and women the same, by the same standard(s)?
Speak to one thing bad about women as a gender then if it's all BS. Because I don't believe you're capable with an attitude like that.
[+]timberwolf3 -16 points-15 points-14 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Suicide "victims"? Nobody is a victim of suicide, they do it themselves
[+]alfabro91 -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
DAE Its a privilege to kill yourself???
[–]Look_at_the_idiot 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Seems like it went over your head.
© TheRedArchive 2026. All rights reserved.created by /u/dream-hunter
[–]Twitcher77 89 points90 points91 points (42 children) | Copy Link
[–]AlexReynard 40 points41 points42 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] (2 children) | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]pajamajamminjamie 12 points13 points14 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Meistermalkav 10 points11 points12 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]AlexReynard 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]VagrantDreamer 7 points8 points9 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Skyty199123 points [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]cody_au17 points [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Skyty199113 points [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]noprotein 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Skyty1991 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]ElfmanLV 26 points27 points28 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] (1 child) | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]ElfmanLV 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]Thai_Hammer -5 points-4 points-3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]cxj 18 points19 points20 points (11 children) | Copy Link
[–]hglman 25 points26 points27 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]hglman 3 points4 points5 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]noprotein 2 points3 points4 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]hglman 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]noprotein 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]cxj 8 points9 points10 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Hypnosomnia 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]cxj 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]kadivs 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Biyorne 5 points6 points7 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]kinyutaka 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]jokersmild -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Theophagist 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]HappyGerbil88 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] (3 children) | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]strangestdude 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]sixofthebest 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]cody_au18 points [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]xanderjanz 8 points9 points10 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]13e1ieve 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]coolsox3 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Ivan_Fackoff 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]ComicBookAfterlife 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]ArcanErasmus 4 points5 points6 points (9 children) | Copy Link
[–]pboyle0010 points [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]smariroach 2 points3 points4 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]smariroach 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]snyper7 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]atred 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 17 points18 points19 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]JTFR 6 points7 points8 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] (1 child) | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]assemblethenation 5 points6 points7 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Bubuloo 1 point2 points3 points (19 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 28 points29 points30 points (17 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] -8 points-7 points-6 points (16 children) | Copy Link
[–]ElfmanLV 11 points12 points13 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]ElfmanLV 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]noprotein 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]13e1ieve 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]noprotein 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]assemblethenation 2 points3 points4 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]assemblethenation 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Zephs 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]sixofthebest 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]that_other_guy_ -2 points-1 points0 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]noprotein 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]Ivan_Fackoff -6 points-5 points-4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]bronkula 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]mindscent -3 points-2 points-1 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]kadivs 7 points8 points9 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[+]mindscent 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Niggerinasuite -3 points-2 points-1 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]skewbuh[S] 2 points3 points4 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point (5 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]skewbuh[S] -1 points0 points1 point (2 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]johnmarkley -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]YuenHsiaoTieng -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]whitey_sorkin -8 points-7 points-6 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]Meistermalkav 4 points5 points6 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[+]whitey_sorkin -5 points-4 points-3 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]Meistermalkav 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[+]whitey_sorkin -2 points-1 points0 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Meistermalkav 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[+]whitey_sorkin -2 points-1 points0 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]noprotein 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]timberwolf3 -16 points-15 points-14 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]alfabro91 -3 points-2 points-1 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Look_at_the_idiot 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link