2 Problems with How TRP Views the Importance of Men's Looks

Papa_Rymski · 2016-01-25T22:55:22+00:00

.. men are somehow shocked and offended that women prefer attractive men.

This is BP.

It’s the classic behaviour of the 30-40 pounds overweight guy who insists on wearing ‘comfortable’ clothes all the time - you know the really nice one, with the ‘right’ gender politics - who is shocked to discover that his rainbow-haired emo-chick friends are just as likely to drool over the Chads as the plastic-fantastics he love-hates …

You have no one to blame but yourself and your own social ineptitude for not picking this up by like 13

"looks are all that matters and there's nothing I can do”,

Man this is so blue pill it hurts. This has gotta be the exact opposite of the red pill.

you have guys who think that looks don't matter and you can overcome any sort of physical shortcoming, regardless of how extreme, with good enough "game”.

Not true. You’ve got this ass-backwards.

A guy who’s loaded or supremely successful because he’s in a band or whatever can certainly increase his desirability, even if he’s short or really weedy and skinny and sometimes a fat guy, especially if he’s 6’2” or over can pull it off but no one - except BP - thinks looks don’t matter.

Karlo20 · 2016-01-25T23:03:30+00:00

Who is telling guys that appearances don't matter?

Most mainstream dating advice is full of shit like "to get a girl to like you make her laugh", "just be confident", "jus b urself". It's pretty easy to see how someone could think looks don't matter. Unattractive men also like to try to believe this as a coping strategy when deep down they know it's not true

You have no one to blame but yourself and your own social ineptitude for not picking this up by like 13.

Cuz fuck socially awkward kids am I right? Goddamn idiots listening and believing what they are told to be true.

there's also an extreme attitude that "looks are all that matters and there's nothing I can do", which also seems to be a product of not going out in the world.

If you're not attractive to someone you're not attractive end of story. In this way looks are the only thing that matters, at least at the first stages.

None of you have ever known anyone who isn't great looking but does well with women? Really? I can think of like 5 guys off the top of my head who I know who aren't conventionally good looking but do really well.

Sure you can, you and everyone else.

diFFzee · 2016-01-25T23:01:50+00:00

On the other hand you have guys who think that looks don't matter and you can overcome any sort of physical shortcoming, regardless of how extreme, with good enough "game".

I 'm no expert on RP but that's pretty much the polar opposite of what they say from my understanding. Their rule 1 is pretty much be the most attractive version of yourself you can be, then do whatever.

I think you 're confusing PUAs that try to sell confidence to the fat dude that aint getting none with TRP. Nice rant otherwise.

runitonce007 · 2016-01-25T23:30:05+00:00

Haha. Imagine you were looking to launch a product for women & said; "I've done some market research & most women don't like it, but I can think of at least 5 off the top of my head that do, so therefore, there is no reason to think this product cant be successful". You'd be laughed out of the room.

Also, the women who, when asked, constantly say they value personality & confidence the most are the ones giving guys the impression they like personality & confidence. Honestly, I think women have said it so often that they almost believe their own bullshit on this now too. You constantly hear them openly contradict themselves int he same sentence without them even realising. Men should start saying that they like fat women, but they just don't like fat women with no confidence

stats135 · 2016-01-26T00:09:53+00:00

You are missing the heart of the issue here. Lets say you see two men. Both identical in every way possible, except that one is more attractive than the other. Who will be more sexual successful? Of course the more attractive one. But here is another question. Lets say you have many men, one average man, the others are identical in every way except for one attribute. One is more attractive, one is nicer,on e is smarter, etc. Who will be more successful with the opposite sex? We all know the average man will be dead last, but who will be in the lead? That is the million dollar question. The point of trp is to figure that out. The current theory is that the maan that is more attractive trumps all the other nice, smart, funny, etc guys.

Of course your delusional bluepiller is going to say that every attribute is important, and men should just have all the attributes. Be nice and smart and funny and attractive and etc. But every single man has only 24 hours in a day. Most men need to spend 8 hours in bed, 8 hours at work with the required one hour lunch break, an hour to commute, and many other time commitments. He only has a few hours a day where he can choose to do whatever he wants. He cant do choose to do everything. If he wants to be successful with women, what should he prioritize?

user5577 · 2016-01-26T00:51:20+00:00

The first is when men are somehow shocked and offended that women prefer attractive men. Who is telling guys that appearances don't matter?

Our whole life we're told it doesn't matter what you look like, women will love you for "you".
Men have trouble understanding what constitutes as attractive. For women attraction is highely contextual "A hot lawyer is better looking than a hot janitor". However we're told from a young age that your occupation doesn't matter.

On the other hand you have guys who think that looks don't matter and you can overcome any sort of physical shortcoming, regardless of how extreme, with good enough "game"

I still believe this and an ugly guy can pull hotter bitches than a "Hot guy". The thing is the uglier you are, the harder it will be. So if a short guy and a tall guy had the exact same game, the tall guy would get way more tail, but there's a lot of tall guys with 0 game, and a lot of short guys with tonnes of it.

The main problem stems from the fact society never teaches boys what women actually what. We are raised to believe things like occupation, looks or even being interesting in the slightest is a-ok. Someone will love you for "you".

In reality all those things are important, and most important is GAME. but there's a lot of men out there that believe game isn't even a thing, like it doesn't exist.

Man__of__Iron · 2016-01-26T02:48:58+00:00

The first is when men are somehow shocked and offended that women prefer attractive men. Who is telling guys that appearances don't matter?

On the other hand you have guys who think that looks don't matter and you can overcome any sort of physical shortcoming, regardless of how extreme, with good enough "game".

Neither of these are RP. Looks are one of the important factors of a woman's attraction to a man. It can be overcome (see e.g. rich old men who's dicks probably don't work getting 10s).

The two things listed above are the two extremes - RP thinking neither holds looks are the only important thing nor that looks are irrelevant.

That said, your second point is closer to the truth. With enough resources or game, you can overcome extreme unattractiveness. I would imagine that even a burn victim with scar tissue on 90% of his body, but who has $5 billion could probably pull many good looking broads.

nomdplume · 2016-01-26T04:29:14+00:00

Again, I have no idea who is coming up with these ideas

I have seen that exact thing happen time and time again. Of the men I know who have the most capability to pull hot women, none of them are obviously physically superior. But they all have ridiculous charisma.

One guy I can think of, in particular, had some jaw-dropping successes. He was not unattractive, but he was not at all someone you would think could make hot women get naked for him on a moments notice (at least 20 pounds overweight, fairly standard issue masculine features, basic wardrobe, etc.).

But the dude had an almost mesmerizing presence. He had this "guru"-type vibe (I swear he was always one step away from being a bone fide cult leader) with intense eyes and a charming smile. And I swear he could mesmerize almost any woman he wanted (he slept with more than one crazy hot married chick in his day, and it was always them who instigated it).

On the other hand, my sex life hit rock bottom right at the same time that my 6'2" frame had 30+ extra pounds of muscle on it and 13% bf, and I was making enough money to have cultivated a particularly fashionable wardrobe and enough excess cash to make a party out of anything. But my game was totally off to the point that I felt like I had to carry a ham bone with me just to get my dog to pay attention. I did way better when I was overweight and out of shape and broke as a joke but had mad swagger and cockiness. C'est la vie...

Xemnas81 · 2016-01-26T10:44:29+00:00

"TRP are a bunch of whiney neckbeards who lack common sense about looks! Any idiot knows women are entitled to hot celebrities! I can't decide whether they're socially awkward, blind, autistic, retarded or just have a massive victim complex about being ugly losers! But even if they are ugly then they should stfu because even though looks are everything (like I just said) only socially awkward losers have to look like a model to get laid! Anyway let'signore my blatant contradiction and just all shit on them to defend women! Prove me wrong I dare you!"

Nah. I cba this time. This place is getting tiring.

You just keep rewriting history and I'm gonna chug on my shake in disgust.

sardonis70 · 2016-01-26T13:50:44+00:00

The first is when men are somehow shocked and offended that women prefer attractive men. Who is telling guys that appearances don't matter?

Growing up this was: my mother, my extended family, my priest and the clergy at the Catholic school I attended. Oh, and anytime I would ask why the girls my age were chasing little Chads? "Those girls are immature and don't know what they really want. When they get older, they'll stop chasing those bad boys." ROFL, they were right, but not for the reasons they thought...

you have no one to blame but yourself and your own social ineptitude for not picking this up by like 13.

Really? Interesting, because at 13 I was JUST getting what I now call my "parole" and transferring from a Catholic grade school to the public school system. My experience with girls up to that point was on the playground and a few cousins when they came to visit, as I was an only child and had no siblings. There were only a few other boys my age around, so no after school mixed group playing.

Put another way, I wasn't exposed to or around many girls as a kid, at least not anywhere that wasn't closely supervised. (and the boys didn't play with the girls on lunch, we were too busy rough and tumbling, I realized much later most of the boys did that so the girls could watch it, I didn't have a clue...)

So, when the adults in your life tell little "white lies" and deflect every time you ask a pointed question, it tends to be difficult to come to the correct conclusions. I could clearly see that most girls went for the Chad-like guys in high school, but my naive ass still believed they "grow" past that stage. It didn't occur to me that HAVING that stage at all was simply part of the plan. I never had nor wanted that stage, and went straight to LTRs starting at 16.

I've accepted my part in believing the BS, but I won't accept that it was ALL my fault. All some adult in my life had to do was pull me aside and say" "listen, you're a great person and you have a lot to offer a woman, but you won't get the chance until you put some effort into dressing better, dropping the spare chub, and actually acting like a likable human being. People can't read your mind, so you need to express yourself." As an introverted shy kid, that would have gotten my face out of books and perhaps into doing things that would have increased my general attraction. But, ya know, they kept saying it was what was on the inside that counted...

GaiusScaevolus · 2016-01-26T15:50:22+00:00

I'm going to ignore the socialization aspect (the 'be yourself', the dad-bod hype, the fact that our media reinforces hot girl/average dude incessantly) and focus on how each of these views of male attractiveness is true from a certain male point of view. I'll also tie them together into a cohesive view.

Looks matter less: Important to note, no one actually thinks looks "don't matter", rather, they think women place less value than men on the physical attractiveness of a partner. And that's technically true. Women look at more factors than men do and consistently weigh things like personality and stability higher than physical attractiveness, whereas men consider attractiveness more important and consider fewer factors. This means that male attractiveness is (for practical purposes) more of a binary position than the women's scaled attractiveness. Put basically, if there are three men, a 6, 7,& 8, each of those men with probably find women that are attracted to them more so the other two. Obviously the 8 will benefit by having a generally easier time of it, but all the men are at the point where non looks factors can make up the difference. The issue occurs when a 4 tries to replicate this same concept, and consistently finds himself shut out. This leads to the other view.
Looks are all that matter: This is a view most commonly held by guys who are SMV < 5, and for them, it happens to be completely true. At that stage, a guy's looks actively prevent him from getting laid. He isn't even failing at it, he has fallen short of the barrier to entry. For these guys, it doesn't matter what other qualities they have, women aren't attracted enough to even entertain the idea of fucking them, and so they fail solely because of there looks.

alreadyredschool · 2016-01-25T23:16:45+00:00

Who is telling guys that appearances don't matter?

Too many people.

You see women drooling over hot guys again and again in pop culture.

Some girl: "You don't even want those superficial girls, one day you will find one that loves you for who you are."

With this ridiculous anger towards women for having sexual preferences

It's not the having of them, it's the denying that they are superficial.

"looks are all that matters and there's nothing I can do"

They are not twerps, those are MGTOWs, black pillers and lookisms.

On the other hand you have guys who think that looks don't matter and you can overcome any sort of physical shortcoming, regardless of how extreme, with good enough "game".

At one point you maxed your looks, from that point on worrying and caring about that is useless, then you have to max out your game.

Either you just look at both extreme ends, have a huge straw man or you misunderstand them. That's where your two problems stem from, both extreme sides are wrong.

Apexk9 · 2016-01-26T01:48:35+00:00

The only looks you can't change is your facial structure and hair.

When I was young my sister was watching a show average Joe where they brought in "hot guys" as a plot twist.

These guys were Imo all fucking ugly their only quality was that they were jacked.

If you're ugly get jacked in the gym anyone can do it if they are disciplined.

voteGOPk · 2016-01-26T05:42:30+00:00

I have always said The Red Pill is an effective coping strategy for men who for whatever reasons never realized looks matter to women as much as it does to men and that not all men can be "charming" due to genetic and socio-economic shortcomings.

Note however, in net terms, I actually think Teh Red Pill is actually good, since in its more "clinical" term, coping strategies are actually good and healthy.

tallwheel · 2016-01-26T08:07:44+00:00

Those are just two very extreme and hyperbolic views that a few misguided beginners may hold. Both you and seasoned members of TRP know that the truth lies somewhere in between.

The real argument should be at what point in between the truth lies. This is an ongoing debate in both the BP and RP worlds.

Lonny_zone · 2016-01-26T13:47:37+00:00

I picked up on the importance of looks as a young teen like any normal person, and sure, some terps are ridiculous and make out like it is some patriarchy-level conspiracy, but the reality is that it is annoying when women fail to acknowledge their own horseshit like:

Claim: "I just want a guy that can make me laugh."

Truth: "I giggle like an idiot if you are cute. If you do not meet my minimum attractiveness standard, I laugh at you and move on."

Claim: "I want a guy that treats me right."

Truth: "I'd rather have a hot guy treat me like shit than be with a guy below my look standard."

Claim: "I want a guy with a good job and a bright future..."

Truth: "...but only after I chase hot losers for a decade."

Claim: "Confidence matters."

Truth: "After meeting my minimum looks requirement, dominance, frame, abundance mentality, and the ability to deflect all shit tests matter."

smokingmonkey420 · 2016-01-26T23:45:37+00:00

If women weren't such liars about everything. Notice how with men there isn't any confusion surrounding the subject. There's a good reason for that.

gavinok · 2016-01-27T07:54:37+00:00

From multiple threads I have posted here, the woman i have talked to, and in other places online, it's incredibly rare for a woman to simply look at a man and immediately start having sexual thoughts about him. Many women have said 1-2% of men give them this kind of reaction. This is contrary to men, where a high percentage of women give them sexual thoughts just by looking at them.

jake_james1234 · 2016-01-27T18:05:21+00:00

men are somehow shocked and offended that women prefer attractive men. Who is telling guys that appearances don't matter

A lot of dating advice for men say that looks don't matter to women, its all about your personality, how you make her feel for example. If you want, just google: Do looks matter to women? (most sources will tell you no) also look at how many women in this video say look's don't matter to them (even though they probably do)

there's also an extreme attitude that "looks are all that matters and there's nothing I can do", which also seems to be a product of not going out in the world. None of you have ever known anyone who isn't great looking but does well with women? Really? I can think of like 5 guys off the top of my head who I know who aren't conventionally good looking but do really well.

Well, most people who say that are either good looking guys who get most of their success because of their good looks or ugly guys who have trouble with women because they look bad (and believe me, if your truly ugly you will probably have many problems with women, and when I say that I mean if you look hideous), looks also matter alot to younger women , and were I live, women are very shallow (guys actually seem to care less about looks were I live, I noticed in western countries it seems like the opposite) when I travel to western countries I know alot of men who are successful with women that don't necessarily look attractive, but were I live you are gonna need to be either good looking ( and I mean top 20% of looks) or have blue eyes and blond hair to be successful with women or be rich of course. If you have tight game you can also rely on that to be successful with women ( I mean you can't rely on just being a cool and popular person to get laid, in western countries I noticed that just being socially successful is enough to get you a girlfriend

summit_girl · 2016-01-26T02:14:43+00:00

I think there is a small set of men (of my age range of interest, currently 18 to 27/29) who will be generally recognized as attractive by the majority of women of their general environment where they live (say, some 70% of women of that age will find these men attractive).

A second, bigger set of men will be generally considered sexually unattractive, and reasons vary. Some have just very bad genetic luck. Most are here due to lack of self-care (obesity, unkempt appearance etc).

Most men are somewhere in between, and they will appeal to different segments of women. And, regarding this large group of men, I agree with the OP.

Many men who would be attractive enough to have a reasonable pool of women attracted to them are just oblivious to some basic things, at least in my age range. It doesn't take much effort to have a good personal presentation (which doesn't mean women falling over his lap, just making him attractive and interesting for a larger subset of us). I remember several (yes, several) guys in my high school that had a lot of potential but passed on grooming, had bad-looking nails, some missed deodorant (!) and didn't notice it.

There is also some small behavioral adjustments that go a long way. For instance, few things are more offputting on an otherwise attractive guy than his ogre mode (think a 20-year old college student who think it is awesome to gulp down a beer can and the blurp loudly, or another one who thinks imitating some porn/sex noise in a party is super funny).

Title	2 Problems with How TRP Views the Importance of Men's Looks
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	5
Comments	105
Date	January 25, 2016 10:52 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/42oaio/2_problems_with_how_trp_views_the_importance_of/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/2-problems-with-how-trp-views-the-importance-of.276678 https://theredarchive.com/post/276678

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