What exactly does "objectifying" mean?

YouDislikeMyOpinion · 2014-06-15T04:16:44+00:00

This is a Question for blue pillers. What is your definition of objectifying?...

[–]Exner215 points16 points17 points 12 years ago (40 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

[–]Exner26 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

Again with this shit? So you cant rate people on their looks anymore?|

Sure you can. But from my reading, TRP advises men to view women as nothing BUT the number. It's not just a descriptor, it's viewed as a way to help men feel less intimidated by women, less "beta," etc. I'm not saying the goal (feeling less intimidated) is a bad thing, but the means of getting there is an example of objectification.

How does imply anything? This is just a strategy for those who want to get laid with a lot of people "spin plates & act aloof". It doesn't dehumanize anyone.|

But this "strategy" involves viewing 1/2 of the population as interchangeable and disposable. I'm honestly not trying to be attacking here, I feel like I'm kind of stating the obvious.

Are you an SRSer?| Nope, I've never even visited that sub. Believe it or not, I'm left-leaning (or blue-leaning) but pretty moderate in my views.

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[–]ThorLivesSkeptical Purple Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sure you can. But from my reading, TRP advises men to view women as nothing BUT the number. It's not just a descriptor, it's viewed as a way to help men feel less intimidated by women, less "beta," etc. I'm not saying the goal (feeling less intimidated) is a bad thing, but the means of getting there is an example of objectification.

I don't agree with that interpretation. In general, men perceive hotter women as both more desirable and more difficult to date/sleep with. In other words, sleeping with a girl who is a "9" is more difficult than sleeping with a girl who's a "3". In that sense, it ends up being a signifier of how good a man's game is. If some pickup artist is consistently pulling "9"s and "10"s, he is envied and he must have some really good game. It suggests that he can consistently date the girls he wants to date, which contrasts with the average guy who has crushes on a number of girls but feels like the girls who he desires are out of his league so he doesn't try or he tries but they turn him down, so he ends up disappointed.

I don't think using a number is a way to feel less intimidated by women at all. In many cases, if I guy perceives a woman as am 8, 9, or 10, he's actually quite intimidated by her, and attaching a number to her doesn't lessen that intimidation.

There are also some pickup artists who soften the whole rating thing, and they say things like 'everybody has their own ideas about what girls they desire most, so one person's '5' is another person's '10'. What matters is your opinion of her.'

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

Sure you can. But from my reading, TRP advises men to view women as nothing BUT the number. It's not just a descriptor, it's viewed as a way to help men feel less intimidated by women, less "beta," etc. I'm not saying the goal (feeling less intimidated) is a bad thing, but the means of getting there is an example of objectification.

TRP, for some people, is just to get laid. Nothing more nothing less. If my goal is to get laid then why should I concern myself with anything else? How does it affect the people you sleep with in anyway? Because most of the time they see you the same way, a tool for sexual pleasure.

If two consenting adults want to use each other for their basic desires, then why not?

But this "strategy" involves viewing 1/2 of the population as interchangeable and disposable. I'm honestly not trying to be attacking here, I feel like I'm kind of stating the obvious.

Like I said If your goal is to get laid with as many attractive women as possible then why bother with anything else? I'm not saying always see women as disposable or generally be an asshole but if I walk into a club with the mindset of getting my dick wet then I don't see why I should concern myself with anything else.

Also please don't try and tell me looking only to have meaningless sex is a bad life choice. Some are happy to live like that.

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If I'm going to be honest, I consider myself more gray than red or blue pill, though I will not deny there is truth in the red.

An example would be advising men to no longer view women as individual people, but as a number (HB9, for example).

It's kinda hard to care about assigning women numbers when you've been treated as disposable your entire life.

Or the view that women are interchangeable (spinning plates, AWALT).

If dating successfully were still possible a few years ago, smart phones/cell phones/internet/texting/etc., definitely killed it. There's just too many ways for women to cheat and get away with it now. There's no point having a girlfriend or wanting to get married today. It wouldn't be a problem if women were more openly sexually promiscuous as long as they didn't cheat or seek validation from anyone but their partners, but the general trend I see is women slutting it up on the side while siphoning resources from betas who actually believe women are angels.

?Obviously the perspective that the only useful quality a woman has is to be a tool for a man's pleasure.

There's not much else to desire from the stereotypical modern American girl because of their attitudes. The only thing left to like about them is their bodies, and we can't shut that off. Sex is a need, and a lot of women have taken to treating it like a weapon. We can't deny being turned on by good looking women no matter how black their hearts are. Men are visual. Thus, plate spinning.

And the lack of concern for a woman's feelings or experiences.

I still care about the well being of others, but I'm not going to go out of my way to fix their screw ups if they don't want to do anything to help themselves. I'll tell them in a frank manner the solution to their problems if they want to whine to me about it, but it's up to them to build the bridges. The ones who listen are welcome to be my friends, and so far, I've actually got a lot of people who respect what I have to say and value my opinion now.

Or the notion that women are generally lacking in human qualities, such as honor, purpose, autonomy, etc.

It's sad, and I mean really sad, but it is a real problem that a great many women suffer from now. Professional victims.

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There are some feminists who are adamant that men shouldn't be part of the movement, but in my experience they are a pretty small group and are seen as counter-productive by most other people.

There is another line of thought that feminist action benefits men, too, and I think that's correct to a degree. Patriarchy is oppressive to men who don't fit into the traditional roles of masculinity. For example, homophobia against gay men can be seen as a form of sexism, because we are discriminated against for not fitting into the traditional roles of masculinity. Acknowledging and accepting that it's OK for men not to fit into that gender role benefits men like me. Another example would be accepting that it's OK for men to be stay-at-home dads while a woman supports the family financially benefits men who want to be in such a role. Gender roles aren't only oppressive to women, they can be oppressive to men who do not fit into them as well.

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Well first we have to establish a definition. I think Wikipedia's is pretty good:

Patriarchy is a social system in which males are the primary authority figures central to social organization, occupy roles of political leadership, moral authority and control of property, and where fathers hold authority over women and children.

At least in this country, every single President has been male, the vast majority of CEOs and members of Congress are male, the vast majority of Governors are male, and the vast majority of members of state legislatures are male. So that establishes that men by far occupy the most roles of political leadership.

You yourself argue that men having authority over women and children in a family is a natural product of evolution so I assume you agree with me that men generally hold authority in families.

Moral authority here comes mostly from religion, which men also dominate. The Catholic Church has exclusively male leadership. The vast majority of other churches also have male leadership. The Southern Baptist Convention also bans women from holding leadership roles in the church, and the Bible itself states that women should be subordinate to men.

If you disagree with any of this, please state specifically what you disagree with and why.

Notably you still haven't provided any evidence for any claims you have made, so I'd still appreciate if you would do so as I have here.

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Interesting research but it's not exactly conclusive. The researchers themselves state you should not extrapolate too much from this:

The limitations of this study need to be considered in future research. First, we cannot assess the legitimacy of the accounts and reports of abuse and helpseeking in this study. Since the men were recruited via the Internet we have no way to confirm the legitimacy of their reports.

I would think in a study of crime, we would look at actual police reports instead of self-selected surveys from anonymous people on the Internet who can report whatever they want.

Thankfully, the National Institute of Justice has done exactly that.

Their findings include:

Men and women were equally likely to be arrested in incidents involving intimate partners or strangers as long as the circumstances were similar (e.g., equally serious offenses were committed).

I'm gonna go with the nationwide study of actual police reports over the anonymous self-selected Internet survey of 129 people.

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Women's suffrage in the United Kingdom:

Women's suffragists in the United Kingdom was a national movement that began in 1872. Women were prohibited from voting in the United Kingdom until the 1832 Reform Act and the 1835 Municipal Corporations Act. Both before and after 1832, establishing women's suffrage on some level was a political topic, although it would not be until 1872 that it would become a national movement with the formation of the National Society for Women's Suffrage and later the more influential National Union of Women's Suffrage Societies (NUWSS). Little victory was achieved in this constitutional campaign in its earlier years up to around 1905. It was at this point that the militant campaign began with the formation of the Women's Social and Political Union (WSPU).

====

Image i - WSPU poster by Hilda Dallas, 1909.

Interesting: Women's suffrage | Women's Social and Political Union | Suffragette | National Union of Women's Suffrage Societies

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Science informs us that there are laws of physics and chemistry that govern the behaviour of matter. People are made of matter albeit arranged in very complex formations; this being the case leaves no room for freewill or "agency". NLP for example models the human being as an information processing device. This means that a human has a (complex) internal state (consisting of beliefs, knowledge, emotions and other abstracts) and receives information through the senses and outputs behaviour in the form of speech and other actions. Humans societies are a complex information network with each human as a node. Of course humans can formulate plans and so forth but the complexity of those plans are governed by a persons individual capacity, genetically programmed instincts and enculturated beliefs.

When a woman puts on lipstick and make-up -- which projects the image of sexual attractiveness -- is she treating men as objects?

So when men are told not to treat women as "objects" what does this really mean? I would agree that the distinction between subject and object is a tenuous one (given the above) so in one way I would agree that it is not appropriate to treat women as objects. But that's more what pua's do. Red pill is more more male self-improvement in order to naturally attract women by for example sculpting a muscular physique.

[–]michellechan2211 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

To a certain extent, yes, the biological and societal factors do control what makes a person who he or she is. However, due to the fact that each level of complexity involves different properties that can only be explained away by a new law, I feel like that would be an oversimplification at the level we are talking about (the human being). Unless you can take into consideration all the laws at every level (which science has not yet managed to do)...

Also, people have the ability to go against their biology as well as beliefs (which may not even come from their culture) and are able to change their environment. As such, yes, I would argue they have agency.

No, because it doesn't ignore the other person's physical autonomy (he/she did not restrain the person forcibly), reduce the other person's mental facilities (most of the time, there is no assumption that the other person will think there's no makeup, and even if there is, most people wouldn't lie about it) and the fact that they have agency (you are free to not look at that person or to choose to or not to approach said person). The reason I am using person, BTW, is that some men use makeup as well. In addition, using makeup does not always project the image of sexual attractiveness.

This means that you know, actually looking at the person as a complex individual (the above is a guideline, but a reduction of the human condition into a line of text simply isn't possible). Also, the tenets of the red pill Reddit does not say so. I am very willing to be proven wrong on this point though, so if you could explain where I could refer to.

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Fair enough, but please explain yourself when you feel comfortable (god knows I should be sleeping). To me it seems like a nebulous term with undefinable boundaries, and uncertain moral consequences. If I go to the grocery store, do I treat the cashier as an object? sure, if that was the way in which you wanted to frame the situation, he/she was just a way to process my order, I give little to no shits about his/her personal life and struggles. That doesn't mean i mean them harm and when i say "have a nice day", although it's completely autopilot at this point, I do truly wish that they have a nice day. I gain nothing from their suffering. so when you say "treat them as an object". ok, perhaps shallow, but if the opportunity presents itself as a one night stand, how much do you really want to invest in the relationship?? at a point, it could even be called "creepy", the dreaded, "creepy" tag, if you obsess over their well being. it's an exchange of validation and sexual pleasure for both parties (we hope). that does not imply that rape is warranted, sought, endorsed, or encouraged. it's simply a transaction that a man and a women implicitly agreed upon.

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Title	What exactly does "objectifying" mean?
Author	YouDislikeMyOpinion
Upvotes	4
Comments	173
Date	June 15, 2014 4:16 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/286ih1/what_exactly_does_objectifying_mean/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-exactly-does-objectifying-mean.285490 https://theredarchive.com/post/285490

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