Growing up Beta: Dealing with Disrespect from High School Friends

Dark-Ulfberht · 2015-03-18T13:35:21+00:00

They bring nothing to the table. They have no utility to me.

This is an insightful realization, my friend.

I didn't have quite the highschool experience that you had, but the same realization applies. I was very poor growing up and most of my friends from my teenage years were as well. I was the only one who made my way into the higher echelons of society, financially speaking. Whenever I run into them, which is rare now, the gulf between us is vast.

Once, I had a former acquaintence ask me for money and I declined to assit. He said, in an attempt to shame me and draw upon our past linkages through an impoverished upbringing: "Bro, I'd be there for you if you needed me." Now, I must tell you that I fucking hate that phrase, "be there for you." It means nothing more than "share in your misery," which is useless and has no value to anyone.

So, being annoyed, I responded with a question: "In what scenario would I ever find myself where I would need your help?"

He gave me a blank stare, so I continued: "There isn't one. You cannot help yourself; how can you imagine that you could ever help me? Any problem that I cannot solve you likely cannot comprehend in the slightest. So, if you truly, truly need money for something, I may decide to help you out of my own sense of kindness, but recognize the nature of this relationship. It is decidedly one way."

This might sound like a dick move, but it's the proper way to respond to the situation. My former "friend" simply wanted something, money, and was shaming me for not immediately assisting. That is the correct interpretation of the situation.

Your "friends" are doing the same thing with you, only instead of extracting money, they are extracting humor at your expense. They are gaining credibility by lowering yours. Now, a bit of that is just normal male-to-male interaction. But, if you find yourself constantly on the receiving end of the jokes and subtle dominance displays, remove yourself from the situation.

Don't hate these people. Their actions toward you helped make you what you are. Use this to fuel your own self-fulfilment. But, they have outlived their usefulness. Give them no more of your time.

NiftyDolphin · 2015-03-18T15:09:52+00:00

I hope this post wasn't too long. I tried to keep the information to the bare bones necessary minimum. Please let me know what you think.

Next step: eliminate lines like the above from your posts.

Diabolical_Nuke · 2015-03-18T14:35:56+00:00

focusing on Beta B because he gets flustered with people talk back to him

You both played right into Mr. Thundercock's frame here. At this point you and Beta B are basically two children fighting for his attention and are unknowingly providing him entertainment.

I've been in similar situations where other dudes trying to prove how Alpha they are start taking taking body shots at me. It's an odd thing to deal with, and I still don't know a great way to handle it in the moment. You don't want to look butthurt, but you also need to draw a line as physical "abuse" (can't think of a better term for it right now) toward you is extremely disrespectful. They are basically saying "You're too much of a bitch to do anything back". I've had moderate success with things such as back handing them in the 'ol family jewels. When they perform the "Mah nuts!" crunch, just ask "what happened bro?!" as you start laughing your ass off. One time I just looked at the guy and asked in a very serious tone "Are you trying to impress someone?" and he got a blank look on his face. Again, not sure if either of those is a surefire way to handle the situation.

As for cutting them out of your life? Yes. But that is more of an after the fact solution. There's always a chance you'll run into the two of them again as well.

Episcope23 · 2015-03-18T13:39:54+00:00

I think you're right to cut these guys out of your life, and I think it's really impressive that you've gained the self-respect to realize that you don't deserve to be treated that way.

Don't beat yourself up too much about losing frame. It's hard not to revert back to old habits when you find yourself in old environments. The important thing is that you are making gains in your life, and cutting yourself loose from toxic people.

One of my favorite quotes: "Ever try? Ever fail? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." (Samuel Beckett).

Keep failing better my friend!

stilllearningsed · 2015-03-18T13:52:10+00:00

And then it hit me: Self-respect would be simply cutting these men out of my life. They bring nothing to the table. They have no utility to me. All they do is hold me back.

I'm really glad you reached this conclusion yourself.

I'm not man enough to straight up say to them: "I no longer want to maintain a relationship of any kind with you", nor do I think that would be a smart idea in a small town where word gets around.

Burning bridges is rarely a good idea. A soft next, as you mentioned, is usually the best course of action. I've typed out an example below, got too wordy and I didn't want it to detract from my main points so I pushed it to the end, read or not as you will.

Maybe we can be friends in the future, as equals, but right now it is clear they see me as beneath them, and there is no way to have a self-respecting relationship with someone who believes themselves to be better than you.

Honestly, the most important part of this is that you still believe you are beneath them, the 'as equals' reveals this. I have a couple friends who 'think' they are better than me, not in a derogatory way but, simply because they have high personal confidence. I can maintain a healthy friendship with them because I don't enter their frame. I'm happy with who I am and my strengths often lie in areas they erroneously deem unimportant. I actually like these kinds of friends the most, they challenge me verbally and physically but, without malice.

An example of soft-nexting a toxic individual from a social group you don't wish to abandon ...

I have a group of acquaintances that, on the whole, are fun to hang out with. However, one of the stronger personalities in the group has grown bitter at life, largely due to having his marriage proposal rejected, by a girl not worthy of him no less. As a result, his sarcastic humor has shifted from jovial jabs to mean-spirited needling. He has gone from being a big personality that is the life of the party to a big personality that drags down the mood for everyone. He is not fun to be around and I think most of this crew realizes this and they're just toughing it out due to loyalty at this point. We'll call him Toxic.

There are both social and professional reasons to stay 'in' with this group. So, rather than dropping the whole group, I hang out individually or in smaller groups with the few people in it I really like. I still get invites to hang with the entire crew and I go but, only about one out of every five invites which works out to once a month or so. I intentionally show up with the early crowd as Toxic likes to do the 'fashionably late' thing. Once Toxic shows up I wrap up my conversations, make sure I touch base with everyone, including Toxic, then head out stating some thing or other I have to get to.

When hanging out individually or in a smaller set of this crew that doesn't include Toxic, I've had several of them express something along the lines of 'Man, sometimes I wish I could just dip when Toxic shows up, like you do.' They see what I'm doing and they respect my decision to not expose myself to Toxic more than necessary. The key here is, I don't talk down about Toxic directly, when faced with this I usually sidestep with something like 'Yeah, its unfortunate, I really like hanging out with YOU guys'.

Ronin11A · 2015-03-18T14:04:23+00:00

"What if I joined a frat, would they respect me then? What if I got absolutely shredded? What if I had a dozen HB10s on my notch list, would they think I was cool finally?"

Why do you care whether they think you're cool? That's essentially giving into their frame. It's the Gatsby Dilemma; he did all this alpha shit with his life, but ultimately for the most beta reason possible (impressing a woman).

Like /u/Dark-Ulfberht said, what are they providing for you? Networking connections? Introductions to HBs? Can they really help you in any way, or are they just keeping you around for their benefit?

there is no way to have a self-respecting relationship with someone who believes themselves to be better than you.

You're very much on the right track, brother.

longerdistance · 2015-03-18T15:03:36+00:00

And then it hit me: Self-respect would be simply cutting these men out of my life. They bring nothing to the table. They have no utility to me. All they do is hold me back.

Not exactly. As you said, you failed to hold frame while being around them.

Since swallowing the pill I've reframed what male to male hazing means to me. I now see it as buddies instinctively toughing each other up, to prepare them for the real fights with other groups of males. It's an instinct that's designed to make you a stronger man.

Think about it, if you held frame around these guys, especially guy A, that would be prove you became a better man. Consider their hazing a challenge to your masculinity, and overcome it.

You should reconsider cutting out guy A. It sounds like guy B might just be putting you down for ego reasons, but if guy A is a true alpha like you say, you could learn a great deal by becoming his equal. Furthermore, once you earn his respect, he can be a valuable asset to your life. He probably has inst into parties, new social circles and he could give you preselection.

If you see the interaction with these guys as them trying to toughen you up, because they instinctively want you to be a strong member of their crew, holding frame around them might become easier as well.

That's my advice, see if it applies to your life. I recommend reading "the way of men" by Jack Donovan if you want to learn more about these concepts.

fakeAk · 2015-03-18T19:24:54+00:00

They bring nothing to the table. They have no utility to me. All they do is hold me back.

I disagree with you. Yes, they are assholes to you, but you should take this opportunity to learn how to fight back. Not everyone in life is going to respect you. Holding frame means fighting back too. You tried to fight back with your friends, you failed, and then before sleep in your bed you thought you dont need them anyway, so why bother.

I think this mentality is wrong. You have to fight for yourself, noone else will.

Zackcid · 2015-03-18T19:41:24+00:00

Good on you for being honest with us, but even more importantly: honest with yourself. Many dudes would sugarcoat the events of last night. They'd never admit to laying down and having people take body shots. Most would never admit to completely reverting back to being a beta bitch.

Point is: you've admitted your flaws, which means you've given something for your brain to work with. Denial means non-existence (at least, as far as your mind's concerned), and something that doesn't exist cannot be addressed and worked on.

You've identified your issues and now your mind can work towards resolving them -- assuming you truly intend on getting better. This is huge because growth and change Always comes from within. And if you're placing obstacles, clogging shit up inside your brain, no change/growth will occur.

My advice is: write in a personal journal. You'd be surprised by the growth that takes place merely from pointing out things to the surface, deciding on goals, ect. Your behaviour last night was "normal", but still unacceptable. What you must do now is cut these suckas out of your life and focus now on building up your own Greatness. You'll find after a while that you won't even have to try-hard anymore -- your high value will simply radiate out of you.

leodoestheopposite · 2015-03-18T13:46:29+00:00

No need to say anything to them, just ignore them.

FunAndFreedom · 2015-03-18T15:38:41+00:00

I have never regretted cutting people out of my life.

There was a CEO of GE, Jack Welch, who was notorious for firing the bottom 10% of his employees on a regular basis. This created a "cream rises to the top" situation. This is a healthy way to prune out your relationships.

letmeseeyourrealface · 2015-03-18T15:39:06+00:00

Cutting out people you don't enjoy hanging out with is great.

I saw a very big change in dynamic to the people I used to hang out with. They don't make fun of me anymore and actually showed respect. They were like "wow you changed a lot man, in the good way".

So it's weird that they still treat you like they did on highschool.

dabrah1 · 2015-03-18T15:45:11+00:00

Its awesome that you came to the correct realization on your own. The only logical thing to do is to cut them out of your life, since they add little to no value to it.

My brother was in a similiar situation to yours recently. We both have the same group of friends (were twins, same age), and although my brother is very smart, he was pretty skinny, and did not know how to deal with people. He was teased relentlessly by our friend group, to the point that he stopped hanging out with them. A couple years after he basically cut ties with them, he had started working out and gained a lot of muscle, got a great job, upgraded his style, and improved his social skills. One weekend the old group who teased him threw a party at one of their houses- he decided to go. Although his smv had improved dramatically, the way they treated him had not. He was still the butt of all their jokes, and a beta in their eyes.

The lesson? Once people have an idea of who you are to them, it is almost impossible to change if those views had been held long enough. It is better to just move on and make other high value bonds.

TW_RPAwake · 2015-03-18T16:07:40+00:00

Excellent post. Thanks for sharing your experience. The message carries an undercurrent worth calling out -

Nothing about your experience indicates dwelling in the anger phase. In fact, your entire post exudes introspection. You are well ahead of most men in that regard.

Your decision to distance from these people is spot-on. Imagine the same scenario with girls you may have been orbiting.. what would the CLEAR advice be? NEXT them! It speaks to your abundance mentality with male friends that you can focus on the circles of people who reflect your friendship properly.

Congrats, and glad to have you on the journey!

shadowq8 · 2015-03-18T16:14:39+00:00

Here is what I think. It's a smart strategy right now to avoid battles you can't win, but if you feel you can surpass them (mentally and maybe physically) just joke around something they are insecure about.

Joking is just talk. Only you can allow yourself to be affected by jokes.

Everyone has a weakness you will be surprised how sometimes the most insecure people are the ones who try the hardest to be secure.

Although from a perspective of self development I wouldn't recommend it. Anger is a poison if held on to.

Whisper · 2015-03-21T01:48:10+00:00

Self-respect would be simply cutting these men out of my life. They bring nothing to the table. They have no utility to me. All they do is hold me back. I'm not man enough to straight up say to them: "I no longer want to maintain a relationship of any kind with you", nor do I think that would be a smart idea in a small town where word gets around. But this sub has made me realize to cut toxic people out of your life; both men and women. I'm thinking of doing a soft next with these two. Maybe we can be friends in the future, as equals, but right now it is clear they see me as beneath them, and there is no way to have a self-respecting relationship with someone who believes themselves to be better than you.

Very well said.

The way I put it is "Never get in a competition that doesn't have a prize for the winner". Yes, if you were some sort of ideal uber-mensch, you could hold frame, out AMOG your AMOG high school friend, and just generally be awesome.

But why? There's no prize if you win other than "not getting picked on". You can get that just by spending your time with people who make your life better, not worse.

Just as you gain nothing from trying to lift a weight that is too heavy, people who always try to break you down are not your friends.
Just as you gain nothing lifting a weight that is too light, people who never put any pressure on you at all are not your friends either.
Your friends are the people who test you just enough to help you grow.

RedRisingHood · 2015-03-18T13:41:43+00:00

Was in a similar situation, was the most beta out of a group of nerdy beta guys.

Literally cut every single one of them from my life, no contact in over two years and become a muscle bound badass with really high confidence. It works though, because my past would massively undermine the frame I now establish wherever I go. I've learned a good lesson though, never tolerate any disrespect from anyone, even mild joking.

soccerplusaviation · 2015-03-18T14:07:43+00:00

I feel you. I was the butt of jokes in high school all the time and I constantly went through that phase feeling worthless and lacking no self-respect. I went away to uni, where overall that feeling began to disappear and I have come to hate my hometown. It represents a depressing area of my life. I am not close to the man I want to be yet, but I love my uni town because it is where I began to actually fight for my esteem and self-worth. There are very few people from HS i would go back to and hangout with because they were good to me despite me being weak and socially awkward. But either than that, I really give no shits about my hometown. It's good you recognize that people from your past really mean nothing to you. You are now freer to move on with your life and live it the way want to. But don't be surprised, as you progress, you may run into you and they will treat you with respect. It's a great feeling to look forward to, but should not be your primary concern

TheFastCat · 2015-03-18T15:11:13+00:00

Surprising and worrisome that people have "friends" that don't respect them or add value to their life. Madness! Great job of recognizing it and working towards always improving your life.

Movonnow · 2015-03-18T20:06:09+00:00

They have known you for a long time and their image of view is of a weak man. To change it, you would need a brutal, radical change that ould send the message "I'm not the one you make fun of anymore.".

Too much of a hassle. Cut them off altogether, it doesn't seem you need them. They are just part of your roots so it's difficult to get rid of them.

Become better than them.

moveon4ever · 2015-03-18T20:23:41+00:00

I have similar story as you OP. But still wondering how to cut them and find new in the same university when all of people already have someone..

RealRational · 2015-03-18T20:52:34+00:00

When most people say "alpha" they don't mean it the way TRP does, they normally mean only physically. The stereotypical frat/jock boy who "just wants to have fun", in his chilidish cocky douchebag way. Just so you know, that is what most people mean by it. They're implying a lack of intelligence. TRP knows you can't be alpha without intelligence, I should say though, grades are a horrid indicator of intelligence. A truer measure would be self improvement, admitting faults and growing from them. For instance:

Your "alpha A", if he's actually a TRP Alpha you shouldn't "next" him. You should confront him, non-violently. If he is actually intelligent you will be able to show him your value. Again, IF he is actually intelligent, he will reveal more of his value to you.

This could be an opportunity for an amazing friendship to be forged.

"Alpha B" is an orbiter, pay of no mind.

quelques_heures · 2015-03-19T00:59:34+00:00

I'm thinking of doing a soft next with these two. Maybe we can be friends in the future, as equals, but right now it is clear they see me as beneath them, and there is no way to have a self-respecting relationship with someone who believes themselves to be better than you.

I think you nailed it, OP. You've got this one.

asdfghjkltyu · 2015-03-19T02:10:59+00:00

The problem with high school friends is they will nearly always view you as they viewed you in high school. People don't tend to update their views on others that easily, first impressions count. So if you've undergone great personal change since that point chances are your 'friends' will still view themselves as 'superior' to you.

Nearly exclusively the best thing to do with highschool friends is just to not see them and not associate with them, the person you are in your mid 20s is so different from high school you (and high school them) that it may aswell be a different person. They don't know you, they knew some person you used to be.

Also take in mind, those people aren't your friends. They're acquaintances from another era. Acquaintances are just that, people that you know because of a situational factor. Don't feel bad dropping them.

spicy_fries · 2015-03-19T05:07:20+00:00

Self-respect would be simply cutting these men out of my life. I'm thinking of doing a soft next with these two.

Perfect! You got it.

Truthfully, the only way that they would respect you is if you kicked Guy B's ass. You'd take his place as second in command and Guy A would respect you. Guy B would resent you like a little bitch but his vote no longer counts. You'd just have to put the hurt on him again to put him in his place.

But leave all that fantasy revenge behind. Just move on.

"Don't worry about the people in your past; There's a reason they didn't make it to your future." -- said some dude

rpscrote · 2015-03-19T16:17:34+00:00

if anyone ever said anything that offended me or crossed a red line I would stop the laughter and get completely serious with them, to let them know it was unacceptable.

No man, direct confrontation means you lost. You disarm, charm, and you make the accuser look like a bully and an idiot. Agree and Amplify. The true alpha has no line to be crossed emotionally. Everything slides off their back. Stopping people from laughing as they tease you is massively beta. The only way to "stop" this is to next them like you plan.

milkman163 · 2015-03-18T16:15:12+00:00

If these dudes are truly bringing you down, then yeah, cut them out for sure.

But if these are dudes are your good buds from way back, and you guys have a lot of positive memories together, maybe you should just keep trying. They aren't going to recognize your new frame the first time you hang out with them again. Maybe give it a few more tries, keep working out, and they'll eventually respect you?

Just playing devils advocate

therellikofthenight · 2015-03-18T17:23:50+00:00

If you don't inspire fear or admiration, you will get respect from nobody. Even friends.

mykonos_rm · 2015-03-18T20:47:48+00:00

Now that ur TRP lemme quote Dan Savage:

"It does get better".

25russianbear25 · 2015-03-19T13:21:15+00:00

Your friends are average. That's about as nice everyone is. Not sure the level of disrespect, but id stay with them if I had no one else. What I'd do different is stand up for my self, fight of you have to even if it means loosing to a stronger guy. (Not sure if this helps but when I was in 5th grade I fought with 2 of my 7th grade friends, real fights just no punches to the face, lost one and draw on other but everyone soon learned not to fuck with me)

You failed to solidify your image while younger, but you can always redefine your image by becoming it.

yummyluckycharms · 2015-03-19T16:19:22+00:00

Most people dont talk to their high school friends - especially after you've gone through uni. So letting them drift off is perhaps the normal conclusion to these relationships

On to the subject of deprecating humour, its a bit of double edged sword, and Im leaning toward the use of ratios when engaging in it, mixed in with calibrating it inregards to the audience as well.

For example,

At work, the ratio is exceedingly low. One or two jibs to self is the max, afterwards, its critical to fight back. Even though its just clowing around, once you get that rep as the punching bag, it seeps into all other aspects of your relationships at work. No boss is going to promote the guy that is the butt of the office jokes - as this is a sign that his co-workers dont respect him

If I still had social grouping dynamics as exhibited by the OP, the better strategy wouldve been to have fat guy and you team up against thundercock. What he did was be the beta bitch to the jock, while putting down the fat guy. This means you get hit from two sides - one from above and one from below in the pecking order by the fat guy who will invariably counter jab. There is no upside for the OP

Some of the commentators are asking how to change first impressions. The answer is that it requires time and distance, so that after you make the change, there isnt a mental anchor of the "old" you in their mind. This advice works with women as well after fucking up a first impression. The key is that the change has to be significant, and the time gap needs to be at least 6 months

rpscrote · 2015-03-19T16:28:21+00:00

I'm not man enough to straight up say to them: "I no longer want to maintain a relationship of any kind with you", nor do I think that would be a smart idea in a small town where word gets around.

This isn't "manly" in the slightest. This is ragingly beta. Cringeworthy.

Women talk about what they want. Men go and GET what they want. Don't talk about it. Do it.

2015-03-19T19:14:58+00:00

Remember this OP - the wolf does not bother with the opinions of the sheep.

foldpak111 · 2015-03-18T17:46:09+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Mechbiscuit · 2015-03-19T14:47:14+00:00

You mentioned self-deprecating humour here and IMHO I think it serves a purpose - letting people people know you don't take yourself too seriously and can poke fun at yourself. It can be done in the right way.

Righto, to the post.

I have a narcissistic friend. He's childish , annoying, loud and obnoxious. However, he's only these things under certain circumstances. He serves a purpose and can be quite fun sometimes. The catch is, we used to be really good friends. We used to meet up much more often. Then I started to make myself better and now at times he will openly resent me.

My point is that you don't need some massive ceremony in cutting these guys out of your life. Just let them drift away from you if you feel they are truly destructive.

Accepting these guys for the kinds of people they are is a better idea than cutting them out of your life for no other reason than it feels satisfying to tell them so.

VanityKing · 2015-03-19T01:41:09+00:00

Just cut them from your life if the disadvantages of having them in it outweigh the advantages. I've recently become quite Alpha, particularly compared to the group of people I keep in contact with years after high school, and I've committed myself to the fact that me continuing the relationship I have with these guys isn't healthy if I want to continue improving myself (as they are complacent and are pretty much the same nerdy yet love able betas from highschool).

Atrocitusrage · 2015-03-19T10:48:56+00:00

I had no idea about TRP and this is my first day of stumbling on to this page and let me tell you it makes a lot of sense. I always wondered why despite being one of the tallest people in my peer group at all times, I was always the butt of all jokes and a punching bag for bullies.

Even now, at 27, I am treated with zero respect within my friend's circle even though I treat everyone with respect (men and women). I have tried many times to alter that perception, but it has never worked out. There was one guy who used me for his jokes and everyone in the gang just assumed this was fine and unfortunately I am stuck in that 'role'. Whatever I say, however relevant or right, is never taken seriously enough.

This doesn't happen everywhere, at work I am a total boss. I perform well and many of my peers look up to me. I thrive in my professional environment. I've made some good friends at work and all of them look up to me for advise on work and life in general. I don't put on another mask at work just to be clear. No one would want to crack jokes about me except on the rare occasion where we would have some banter going on. Apart from that I feel I am treated with respect and once that is given to me, the feeling is always mutual.

So my question to TRP is, do first impressions matter? How do we get slotted into these roles in different social scenarios. How do we rise above it all. I am always nice to people and I definitely expect that in return, isn't that a better way to live than viewing it as a power struggle?

Hope I got my point across!

sealteamaus · 2015-03-18T13:38:03+00:00

go learn MMA and stop bein such a bitch, otherwise nice work

twistedbrother2 · 2015-03-18T13:44:13+00:00

This post was too long. Next time try to post something useful rather than jerk yourself off in front of everyone.

Title	Growing up Beta: Dealing with Disrespect from High School Friends
Author	_Meursault
Upvotes	86
Comments	61
Date	March 18, 2015 1:04 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2zgofy/growing_up_beta_dealing_with_disrespect_from_high/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/growing-up-beta-dealing-with-disrespect-from-high.30359 https://theredarchive.com/post/30359

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