Something happened in /r/Feminism that has turned me to the MRM for good.

theozoph · 2013-08-19T12:01:25+00:00

Your comment has already been deleted by the Sisterhood. Surrender your badthink, Resistance is futile. ;)

Welcome to /r/MensRights, where even if we think you're a dick and an asshole, we will still let you state your position.

Muffinizer1 · 2013-08-19T14:36:48+00:00

I went there first as well. I was ignorant, but started a thread about how shitty my town's girl scout troop was compared to my boyscout troop, and basically I asked if this was a feminist issue because everything else there was abortion legislation and rape culture stuff, so I was disappointed that those out for women's rights seemed to only focus on a few things. I did get some praise for posting it, and at first I was glad to see their interest in it. They said I was a feminist, and I was a bit uncomfortable because I was just curious, and though I should make the decision myself. Well apparently its not even a choice. Then I spent some time there, and got into a few arguments. There was the typical masculinity hating, any my argument was that they have no grasp of what being a masculine guy is, as they thought being a rapist shows fellow men your masculinity. Well somewhere during that time I was sexually assaulted/borderline raped by a guy depending on whose definition you use, and it opened my eyes. I hated the way rape campaigns showed only female victims, and I got banned for a rant against a popular one. Their last words for me was an insult, "go back to mensrights," so I found you all here, and I quite like it. Unfortunately I don't agree with everything posted here, but I do like the way you guys handle criticism compared to /r/feminism. It isn't frowned upon. Idiots are downvoted, but comments debating the OP's position are upvoted. Arguments happen in the comments where both sides are upvoted, and the mods dont delete the side they disagree with. I didn't chose my label when I was a feminist, but I choose to say that I am now an MRA.

Cyridius · 2013-08-19T12:05:53+00:00

OK, so seeing as my OP may not have been all that clear;

If you follow the second link, it links you to thread in question(I swapped www. with np. - thanks for the tip).

It was some stupid image macro about rape prevention, and I disagreed with it. 5,600 characters later, I had this posted;

"Please, stop using strawman arguments to make a bad point.

When people say "If you dress in such and such a way you are increasing your chance of getting raped" it is common sense.

Let's just take a moment here and think instead of trying to absolve ourselves of responsibility;

Why do many women dress is certain ways? Because it looks good. Why do they want to look good? Because it's attractive. Why do they want to be attractive? To get male attention(Assuming heterosexuality, not that it really matters in this argument).

See what I just said? Get male attention. Not a rapist's attention. As we know, quite a few rapists are male, therefore you also get their attention.

If you come up to me naked and start drying humping me and then say "What the fuck no I don't want to have sex with you, you creep!" I'll be like "Well, OK then, but other people wont be so considerate, you should probably be careful"; Your response should not be "Well you should all be ashamed of yourselves! Why aren't you looking out for me!?"

What just happened is absolute dissolution of personal responsibility. When you say the way you dress or behave should not matter for you getting raped, you are saying you are not responsible enough to control yourself and be aware of your surroundings. This is Safety 101.

I do not go to Afghanistan, stand out in the middle of a fight and start jumping in front of soldiers and when I get shot, say "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING YOU ASSHOLE". It's a matter of being responsible enough to realize when your actions are going to have negative consequences.

Walking alone at night is dangerous for men because a man can get assaulted, mugged, robbed, and murdered. Walking alone at night is dangerous for women because a woman can get assaulted, mugged, robbed, murdered, and raped.

The difference is, what you seem to be saying is that you walking alone at night shouldn't matter, it's the rapist's fault.

Well, no shit. It is the rapist's fault. In a perfect world you would be safe. But let's live in the real world for a moment where your actions have consequences.

If you go out, get so incomprehensibly drunk that you can barely walk, go off alone, at night, wearing very revealing clothing specifically designed to attract male sexual attention, you are dramatically increasing your chances of getting raped. This is simple common sense.

However, when somebody points this out, it is suddenly "victim blaming". Sorry, but when somebody does something incomprehensibly stupid they share a level of the blame. Not the bulk of it, obviously, because they did not commit the crime, and they are a victim of the crime.

But in the same way I put myself in a situation where I got shot by jumping around in a firefight, that woman put herself in a situation where she could get raped.

In my situation, I'd be called a fucking idiot. My response of "WELL IN A PERFECT WORLD THERE WOULDN'T BE WAR SO I SHOULD BE ABLE TO JUMP AROUND WHEREVER THE FUCK I WANT" would not fly. In the exact same vein when a woman does all of the above she should not ever be able to say "Well in a perfect world there wouldn't be rape so I should be able to get hammered, wear almost nothing, and walk off alone at night and expect nothing bad to happen".

Because we are not in a perfect world. When you post this stupid image macro you're not only sexist towards men you're also sexist towards women by making Feminists look so incomprehensibly stupid that they're unaware what basic human responsibility and safety is.

Rape is a fact of life. It exists. It's not good, but it exists. If you refuse to address danger, danger is going to literally fuck you in ways you do not like. Dressing in revealing clothing to attract men is one thing. Getting drunk and making yourself vulnerable is another thing. Going off alone with nobody around you to look out for you, that is something altogether a different animal, and if you do that you share a portion of the blame. This is basic human responsibility.

If I go up to an armed robber and punch him in the stomach, when I get shot people will call me a fucking moron, and then the guy will go the jail. I'll still be shot, and I'll still be a fucking moron. When a woman does the equivalent to a rapist, suddenly she's independent and has done nothing stupid? That's not only a sexist stance to make(As I've previously highlighted), it absolved all women of personal responsibility, and it seems to me like you're implying a woman is incapable of responsibility through these statements.

Your stance is identical to the stance that a man could not defend himself against a woman physically assaulted him because "It's not OK to hit girls".

These "prevention measures" are often cited by people because they are factors you can control. Can you control the rapist's thoughts? No. Can you control the rapist's actions? No. Can you control where you walk? Yes. Can you control what you wear? Yes. Can you control how much you drink? Yes. Can you control who you're with? Yes.

Frankly, I'm offended by the rampant sexism and implications in your submission, and instead of ignoring me I'd like an actual credible rebuttal on a level that addressing the issues that I've raised with what you've said, outline your own logic behind your belief as outlined in the submission(That belief being that a woman should under no circumstances ever share a level of responsibility when she puts herself in a situation where she is raped by a man, and then the assumption that "Rape is [a man's] natural state").

Thank you."

Less than 5 minutes later, comment was deleted. All that time, wasted. No thanks, I don't want to be a part of a community that deletes any opposing argument, thanks.

DerpaNerb · 2013-08-19T15:22:14+00:00

Those people are so fucking stupid.

Sorry, but top comment from that post.

The reason 'prevention measures' like this are so messed up are not because the put responsibility on women to prevent rape, but because the underlying implication is that 'rape is a normal fact of life, so try to be less of a target so it happens to someone else instead'. These ideas are excellent methods for not being a target, but they imply that there's not actually a problem in the first place.

First of all.... the underlying implication is that rape IS a normal fact of life. Just like CRIME IN GENERAL is a normal fact of life... because, scumbags exist in this world and there is NOTHING we can do to stop them until they actually commit said crime. This means that there WILL ALWAYS be a victim before someone can be locked up and dealt with by society.

I mean, my god the amount of stupidity and naiveity is just mindblowing. I guaran-fucking-tee that every one of those people has a deadbolt on their doors. I guarantee that they all have locks on their vehicles and keep the windows rolled up. That's because, like it or not, CRIME IS A NORMAL FACT OF LIFE. Acknowledging this fact does not mean you support that fact, or contribute to it's existence, it's about not being a retard and protecting yourself from those who lack empathy and wish to do you harm for their own gain.

And to emphasize this last bit:

These ideas are excellent methods for not being a target, but they imply that there's not actually a problem in the first place.

Yeah, because locking your door is totally recognizing that there isn't a problem with people being thiefs. I mean, let's totally ignore the fact that everything talked about here (assault, rape, theft, burglary, whatever) IS A CRIME AND WILL RESULT IN THE PERPETRATOR BEING SENT TO JAIL IF CAUGHT... but no, we totally don't think it's a problem.

Seriously, I don't even know how some of these people function in society.

Vandredd · 2013-08-19T12:01:05+00:00

You assumed that the vastly overused "victim blaming" meme was based on anything logical to begin with. It's a way to be totally absolved of all personal responsibility based on how they WANT the world to be. Its silly, treat it as so.

edit-always replace www with np.

2013-08-19T14:19:25+00:00

That's not what it assumes at all. It assumes rapists exist, which is a pretty safe fucking assumption.

Mytecacc · 2013-08-19T15:37:14+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2013-08-19T20:12:53+00:00

You've just learned what most of us here know already: Feminist subreddits are quick to delete comments and censor people who don't agree with them. Their points of arguments wouldn't be able to survive otherwise.

"You can't be wrong if there's no one in the room to prove you wrong!" - r/feminism, r/shitredditsays, r/againstmensrights

avantvernacular · 2013-08-19T12:34:32+00:00

It's funny to watch the circle logic trying to justify the misandry there.

VortexCortex · 2013-08-19T12:12:02+00:00

A woman can go out at night wearing nothing but a sandwich board that says "Rape Me!!!" and if she gets raped, she still has zero accountability for her actions or for her own safety in the eyes of feminism.

rightsbot · 2013-08-19T11:52:17+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

theskepticalidealist · 2013-08-19T19:32:09+00:00

<what I want to show you is too big for a screenshot demonstration.

Shoulda tried anyway, now its gone.

Pecanpig · 2013-08-19T19:36:33+00:00

"You have been banned for starting an invasion thread against our community."

LOL

gopher88 · 2013-08-19T11:58:21+00:00

I can't find the sticky, but you might want to use the np.reddit form to link other sub-reddits to stop vote brigading. (there was a sticky yesterday)

[edit] http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1jrwuj/rule_update_direct_crosslinking_no_longer_allowed/

callthebankshot · 2013-08-19T12:54:09+00:00

I've seen that stupid femlogic rehearsed before. It does not compute.

Saying that women should be careful does not imply that all men are rapists. It acknowledges that a small percentage of the population (both men AND women) are rapists and that any sane person should take steps to protect themselves from being raped.

GenderEqualityKing · 2013-08-19T15:27:16+00:00

As a sympathizer with the MRM, I've always believed that women should be encouraged to dress however they want to dress in public (as should men) without making "moral" judgments as to whether the woman is scantily clad, naked, well dressed, shabbily dressed, etc. There should be no judgment, period.

On my part, I think that as men we should just ignore women in public. The more provocatively they dress, the more we should ignore them. I think that if 50% of men turned into MGTOW's, you'd see a BIG change in the tenor of the conversation.

Suddenly women wanting boyfriends and husbands and children will have to decide: do I want to seriously address gender issues or do I want to pretend I write for Jezebel?

(Edit: It's also been proven that the way a woman dresses does not increase or decrease her chance of being raped.)

anonagent · 2013-08-19T17:22:46+00:00

Thread is dead.

2013-08-19T19:28:17+00:00

i'd just like to point out the distinction between fault/blame and the ability to prevent. If someone rapes a drunk person, it's the rapists fault, but the drunk person could have prevented it. From a sheer deterministic standpoint, if the person knew that the rapist was there, you might think that giving them the opportunity to rape would make it the drunk's fault, but it isn't. If the rapist decided to rape them, it's still their fault (which is why they're the ones that get punished) because creating the opportunity wouldn't have mattered if no one took it. From this, we see that everyone can prevent rape (at least, drunk rape), but not everyone is at fault for having to. They are also not at fault for it happening if they don't try to prevent it, they just could have and probably should in the future. So when feminists complain about victim blaming, it's really just advice.

fluxBurns · 2013-08-19T19:52:51+00:00

That sub is a bit nutty but don't commit to any ideology 'for good' keep thinking asking questions, learning and looking for better answers. You can bet mensrights gets things wrong. Without that mensrights is just another circle jerk.

ninja_jay · 2013-08-19T20:09:00+00:00

At the risk of sounding antagonistic, i posted in that thread just fine.

shrug

Edit: And i should mention that i didn't agree with the prevailing tone of the thread.

2013-08-20T11:10:57+00:00

Funny, I could swear that this post in Feminism is inadvertently dismantling the Schrödinger's rapist delusion.

Or at least making the point for men that feel insulted by it.

Mytecacc · 2013-08-19T16:37:17+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	Something happened in /r/Feminism that has turned me to the MRM for good.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	48
Comments	73
Date	August 19, 2013 11:50 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1kntbh/something_happened_in_rfeminism_that_has_turned/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/something-happened-in-rfeminism-that-has-turned-me.1166004 https://theredarchive.com/post/1166004

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