Good work ladies!

Faryshta · 2011-03-28T03:52:46+00:00

Just a call on attention, we have many subscribers who are female and do support equal rights.

dorky2 · 2011-03-28T02:40:48+00:00

Heres the thing. Feminism is great, promotion of equality etc. Feminists are usually fucking bitches, who dont believe in equality but just getting more power.

I think it was Ghandi who said

"I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians, your Christians are not like your Christ"

Feminism sounds good on paper, but the "feminism" most "feminists" push is fucking bullshit.

edit: gramma

tgfoo · 2011-03-28T13:18:24+00:00

As man who supports men's rights, this post signifies the big problem I have with this subreddit. They are a lot of valid issues brought up and discussed here. Issues that I support and that I believe many woman would support as well.

The problem is the tone with which they're discussed. The is a LOT of anger here. I know many here have been wronged and have good reason to be angry, but people aren't going to listen if you come off as spiteful, vengeful or accusatory, which many here often do. I'd just like us (and when I say us, I mean everyone who posts here, regardless of gender) to check the anger, the labeling, the broad generalizations at the door and talk about the issues in a respectful manner.

Arrowmatic · 2011-03-28T06:53:36+00:00

Female here. Never trolled your subreddit, and have no interest in doing so. I'm sorry you got shat on by jerks and/or society, naturally I'd prefer good experiences and actual equality for everyone, but try not to generalise all of us and large swathes of the civil rights movement based on a few bad experiences. I'm sure you hate it when women do it to men, don't do it to us.

docpepson · 2011-03-28T14:50:05+00:00

Parental rights are so skewed towards females in this country (USA) that it sometimes makes me want to move abroad.

My wife and I are currently in a tif about my smoking. I'm currently trying to quit, but her only action is that she'll divorce me if I don't. What would that do for me? Nowhere to live, and no way to afford to live anywhere. While she by default will receive child support payments, etc.

It doesn't matter who the better parent is, she will receive custody of the child.

I could go on and on, but I won't.

girlwriteswhat · 2011-03-28T16:35:18+00:00

Hi, everyone! I'm the OPs gf, and I've spent a lot of time on feminist and men's rights sites in the last few years, trying to piece together the causes and undercurrents in the breakdown of my previous marriage, and figuring out where a woman with a male sense of responsibility and honor (not that women don't have those traits--they just tend to approach them differently than men do) and a little common sense fits into society and male-female relationships.

Wabi-sabi has every right to be bitter. So do I. My ex basically abandoned his role as father to our kids years before I ended our marriage. The law insists he has to pay for them (he still hasn't, not one dime in two and a half years, though I'll own I haven't been pushy in that regard), but can't force him to see them or be a father to them. And while I'll concede that he has a responsibility to support his kids that did not cease just because the marriage had become unbearable to me, money isn't what my children need from him. What they need is a dad.

If there's one thing feminism refuses to address it's the inherent hypocrisy in demanding that fathers take on more of the child-care and domestic load within families (only fair--the burden shouldn't be entirely on mom, unless maybe the burden of earning a living is entirely on dad), but once the family takes on a different shape post-divorce, father's role is so often reduced by law to that of bottomless wallet and glorified babysitter (if he's lucky--if he's not, he just pays). I've had women tell me my ex should be in jail for not paying child support. I'm more of the opinion that he should be socially shamed for having to have his children pushed down his throat. And some of those same women who insist he should be rotting in a cell over something as cold as money go to great lengths to fuck with their own exes' court-ordered access to their kids, as if the best interests of their children and their children's right to have a father in their lives are of no consequence at all.

But hey, a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle, right? And apparently that extends to her children. Feminism told me I can do anything, and now I get to do everything--I get to be both mother and father to my kids, and I get to support them all on my own. Whee! I win! Though I suppose I have feminism to thank for my ability to be everything to my kids, as imperfectly as I manage it.

I'm not prepared to put a man in jail just because he wants to live like a teenager, with no responsibility for the children he brought into the world. Still, I understand how my children have been cheated, of financial stability and of a father. I don't blame feminism for that (we all have our flaws and make our own choices, good or bad), but I do understand how devaluing the role men play within families--and telling them as much over and over--has led to a lot of men staying boys their whole lives.

Wabi-sabi and I met online. What really attracted me to him was the way he talked about his daughter, whom he hadn't seen in months at that point, and will likely never see again. He was a devoted father for five years. The child wasn't biologically his, but he was the man who was there when she learned to walk and talk and feed herself. She called him daddy. He was the only father she knew. And he was the kind of father feminists insist they want--hands on, on the front lines, cleaning up puke, changing diapers, fixing lunches, reading bedtime stories. As he told me once, you wipe a bum enough times, it forms a bond.

His ex left him for reasons that are all too typical these days--feeling "unfulfilled" at about the same time she met a guy with a bigger wallet and more time to spend with her (largely because he wasn't cooking or cleaning or reading bedtime stories). Wabi-sabi was neither neglectful nor abusive, within the relationship or after.

He continued to see his daughter every weekend for as long as his ex allowed it. I read the emails he and his ex exchanged when she cut off his access on the thinnest of pretexts--a pretext confirmed as bullshit by her own later statement, "I don't need a babysitter, so I don't see any point in continuing the visits."

I was with him when the phone calls from his ex started--Shorty insisting she'd left this or that special item (that never existed) at his apartment and wanted to come get it. I guess kids come up with their own pretexts to get what they want, when coming out and asking gets them nowhere.

He went to a lawyer. The lawyer told him there was no point in fighting for access--Shorty isn't biologically his, so he has no clear rights under the law. If he managed to have his ex declared unfit (something he wasn't prepared to do even if he could, when the kid had already lost one parent), custody would have gone to her parents, not him. If his ex wanted to, she could come after him for child support--but that still wouldn't automatically grant him any paternal rights to that child. If it did, I'm pretty sure he'd volunteer to pay.

It's hard enough exercising paternal rights after a break-up. Being a father to a child who isn't yours is one of the most noble, and most foolhardy, things a man can do. And what strikes me in all of this as the most unjust--from my position as a woman who will (and has) paid my ex so he wouldn't have an excuse not to see my kids when they wanted--is that the only people who seem to give a shit about it are Wabi-sabi and his daughter, and they get NO SAY WHATSOEVER.

I don't consider my kids' relationship with their father as a function of HIS right to see them. It boils down to their right to see him, for as long as that relationship has anything of value to offer them. The law--as written in Canada--agrees, but application of those laws is another thing altogether.

Anyway, I'm not a feminist. I'm not a masculinist, either. The world is an unfair place, and sometimes it's unfair in our favor and sometimes it's not. I'm not a huge supporter of any kind of rights unless they're paired with responsibilities. And at the moment, on some issues like family law, rights are skewed in the favor of women and responsibility is skewed to the detriment of men. In other areas, the balance is different. I think all these areas need and deserve attention.

But I do think that women, on the whole, were told that a feminist society would make them more happy and fulfilled, and that simply hasn't been the case. We have more rights. We have more burdens. The great lie of feminism is that it's benefit/benefit, but nothing in life is ever like that--social change always comes with a cost, and much of the cost of feminism has been borne by women themselves.

I don't think sharing our stories necessarily equates to "whining". Sometimes it's about providing context, so that people can better understand where you're coming from. And to that end, I hope my comment has done that. :)

Sarstan · 2011-03-28T13:29:49+00:00

(we work harder and make different choices, that's why we make more)

Partly, but its mainly due to the fact that women get maternity leave and men get to stay at work. In more socially equal countries like Sweden, there is nearly no lifetime pay gap.

2011-03-28T12:02:43+00:00

Yesterday.

roland3337 · 2011-03-28T04:17:10+00:00

preach it, brother...

clicketyclack · 2011-03-28T06:17:00+00:00

...well, at least you're not bitter or anything.

devotedpupa · 2011-03-28T06:23:24+00:00

Hi. Male here. It seems you'd really like to know why you're getting downvotes. I'm downvoting you because you're making the situation worse. Trolls don't care who they're hurting. Hell, any decent troll will now decide that you guys are a PERFECT target because you are obviously upset by it and you assume that it's the action of feminists who just can't stand the idea of real equality. Certainly, some of it IS the action of feminazis, but more than anything else it's just people who know they can be hateful in the relative anonymity of the internet and get away with it. They do it, not because they really truly believe it, but because they know it makes you mad. If you really want this bullshit to stop, STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS.

And now you can all go ahead and downvote me because I've disagreed with the hivemind.

BinaryShadow · 2011-03-28T04:34:02+00:00

They are less common, but there are stupid misandrist male feminists too. Addressing this to "ladies" is a bit sexist.

BolshevikMuppet · 2011-03-28T15:18:00+00:00

The problem is distinguishing between a loyal dissent, and "trolls". I've been accused of "trolling" a good dozen times (at least) here, simply for finding little wrong with allowing parents to circumcise their sons. There are many, many, men around these parts who can brook no disagreement. And I believe the movement hurts itself by saying "you're either with us lock, stock, and barrel, or you're a troll". I'm sure there are trolls here (just as I'm sure there are misogynist trolls in any of the feminist subreddits); but that attack gets bandied about at people who, like myself, have little more sin against this subreddit than to disagree with the prevailing MRA dogma on a few issues.

There's something ironic about complaining about dogma from the feminists while a similar effect happens here. I'll also respond substantively to your post:

Guys who worked their asses off in harsh environments (we work harder and make different choices, that's why we make more)

Yes and no. The problem is trying to find a single cause for why men receive higher compensation. Both sides do it, certainly (and cherry pick possible causes to support their side). We should probably admit that at least a good portion of wage disparity is accounted for by choices (having children, occupation, whatnot), but I don't believe those account for all of the disparity (especially in the face of studies which show actual discrimination against married women, and those with children). It's a discussion to have reasonably and maturely.

instead of debating in an open and honest way about what these guys are talking about - you make fun of them

You know what? I have. I've repeatedly gone toe-to-toe with anyone here on the issues I feel either shouldn't be part of the MRA movement, or which I believe the prevailing dogma is wrong about (circumcision, rape law, "financial abortion"), or when I see hypocrisy and double-standards emerging from MRAs (especially about statutory rape). For my trouble, I'm not lauded as a legitimate member of the movement who has disagreement, I'm branded a "troll" and attacked personally. I actually had to delete my old profile because personal information of mine was posted here in an attempt to attack and discredit me.

but now it seems to have evolved into a bunch of people who have a dogma to bolster up their own inadequacies and feelings of personal un-fulfillment

Pots and kettles, man.

American83 · 2011-03-28T06:56:21+00:00

..and then have their wife decide that he wasn't doing enough and she had better options.

And just like many women encounter "bad" guys, so do many men encounter terrible women.

You win!

We need people like you. Stay with us.

dorky2 · 2011-03-28T17:36:23+00:00

I agree with everything you say except "we [men] work harder [than women]." I don't think that one gender or the other actually works harder overall. I understand it though if you're referring specifically to self-entitled so-called "feminists" who want the world to fall down at their feet just because they are women.

2011-03-28T01:54:34+00:00

[permanently deleted]

faewillow · 2011-03-28T12:05:33+00:00

Just had to point out that not all of us are here to troll. I am married to a formerly abused man, whose ex has used the system to steal from my family multiple times. Several of my friends are in similar situations. One has been put through 5 - nearly 6 now - years of hell because the legal system is being used by his ex as a tool of vengeance against him for daring to move on after their divorce. I've been discriminated against at work by my feminazi boss because I testified on my buddy's behalf in that case, and my family suffered serious financial duress over that. There is nothing I can do about it, and it wouldn't change my actions, but it makes the evil, insidious nature of modern feminism all the more clear - and all the more frighting - to me. If left unchecked, what the hell is it going to do to my son and daughters? Do not let your trolls get you down, and do not feel alone. I'm upvoting this even though I disagree with your use of the term "ladies" in conjunction with feminism. It is terribly cowardly and hypocritical of these trolls to use downvotes to suppress speech while considering themselves oppressed. Rather typical, though, isn't it?

LsdXtcThc · 2011-03-28T07:46:31+00:00

I'm a woman and I support equal rights for me and women, and I figured feminism IS for the equal rights between men and women? I know it's still not equal, my ex boyfriend can beat and get away with it, us women make less money even when we are more likely to attend university etc yet you men have it bad too in the sense of laws that take away your rights as a father. Bitching about it isnt going too do shittt tho. Also, MOST rapes that occur are not just 'oh I changed my mind', that is a very low percentage.

Faryshta · 2011-03-28T20:34:09+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2011-03-29T03:24:32+00:00

Spoiler alert: not all trolls are female. Saying all the trolls are female makes you look like a paranoid misogynist, as if you think only females are evil enough to troll on the internet. Trolls are trolls, and making five new posts about them every day accusing them of being radical feminists in disguise only makes you look stupid and steals attention away from talking about actual issues.

tl;dr version STOP BITCHING ABOUT TROLLS FOR FUCK'S SAKE. YOU ALL LOOK LIKE CHILDREN. ACT LIKE GROWN GOD DAMNED ADULTS.

Equa1 · 2011-03-28T10:02:01+00:00

[permanently deleted]

noodleworm · 2011-03-28T15:13:19+00:00

hey, I'd female and I do find it a little depressing that the term feminism has come to this, something seen has outdated and ridiculous. I subscribe to mens rights because I'm interested and I feel if both genders are to be equal then mens issues such as childcare and false rape allegation you speak of, have to be given attention. True, if a man and a women do the same job, with same skill and performance, obviously pay should be equal, I don't think women should have a raise handed to them because of gender. I understand that gender roles and social paradigms have a huge affect on our treatment of gender, whether we realize it or not, we have ideas of what is expected of each, and still have reservations because of it. I see it as a good thing to encourage us to break gender norms, both men and women, why do so few women work in construction? why so few men work in childcare?

aaomalley · 2011-03-28T14:59:30+00:00

[permanently deleted]

feministtrollqueen · 2011-03-28T17:18:01+00:00

OMG!!! You guys are such misogynists. You need to realize that I am a feminist and I know what feminism is cause I am a feminist. HOW dare you talk about such a movement in such a bad way, you are evil penis wearing misogynists! Those evil penises of yours cause RAAAAPPPEEEEE and that is all men's fault.

Those testicles of yours create woman hating, aka misogynistic, thoughts. NOW, understand that I LOOOVE men. I really do. I do not hate men. I just think you misogynists need to understand that you can be better, real men. Until you step up and be real men, you will always be manchildren.

Now, I love men. I really do. I have sexes with many, many men. I luvs casual sexes with men. I do it all the time. I just don't like it when you men make me feel bad by exercising your own sexual rights and opinions and call me fat. I am not fat, I AM BIG AND BEAUTIFUL!.

But you men are insecure and have mommy issues. You call us gals sluts...I AM NOT ONE OF THOSE! That is misogyny. How dare you! Wut?

I am a independent and empowered woman who doesn't need men. I can get a baby from a sperm bank. I don't need men! I am beautiful and lovely and sexy and I LOVE men.

You pathetic virgins in the MRM are just bitter and lonely and can't get any pussy cause you live in yo mommas basement. How pathetic.

I read all of your posts and I still won't have nasty and sexy butts sexts with you. I am simply too sexy for you and even if you wanted it you couldn't get it. I am that much bettar than you but unlike you I actually believe in equality.

You little boys need to grow up and become real men and learn about feminism and how us women will actually help you and solve your problems for you. I am for equality! I want men to be free and feminine like me, you little boys just want to whine and moan and need to call a waahhbulance. I want equality between the genders. I want you to be real feminist men and get intouch with your feminist side and be equal to us glorious women.

TLDR: Grow up boys, become real feminized and feminist men and get equality. I am a real feminist. I am looking out for your best interests and want you to be equal to me.

barbadosslim · 2011-03-28T18:02:06+00:00

Instead of addressing the systematic issues that are causing the trouble to men, instead of debating in an open and honest way about what these guys are talking about - you make fun of them.

Mensrights doesn't really discuss issues though, it's mostly just a bunch of articles about how rape is generally just the woman lying or articles about women who committed crimes. The opinion pieces - including the op - generally just deny that women face any systemic discrimination.

This is why mensrights gets trolled.

argv_minus_one · 2011-03-28T03:12:35+00:00

Please tell me "trama" is a portmanteau.

nepidae · 2011-03-28T05:30:20+00:00

Typical douchbag guy generalizing all women.

Liverotto · 2011-03-28T13:54:42+00:00

Basically it works like this:

A society achieve supreme superiority over the others -- Western Society
People are spoiled
They start feeling guilty
To placate their sense of guilty and to patronize their hypocrisy they start "empowering" inferiors races, inferior genders and disabled people
These people are the majority of the society and start dictating their rules
All kind of crazy rules and laws are implemented by this sick "democratic society"
Discrimination of non-inferiors is mandated by the law, white-males are the niggers of this sick feminist society
The unbelievable thing is that this sick diseased society will not collapse on itself until another society is ready to take its place

2011-03-28T14:37:12+00:00

Cry about it.

nanomagnetic · 2011-03-28T04:47:09+00:00

Source?

Hypersapien · 2011-03-28T04:51:57+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	Good work ladies!
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	289
Comments	215
Date	March 28, 2011 1:26 AM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/gcszy/good_work_ladies/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/good-work-ladies.1041692 https://theredarchive.com/post/1041692

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