We Are Not Your Mirror Image

niczar · 2014-09-15T22:08:09+00:00

Just one point:

While I think most RPers don't really understand feminism at its core

It's a matter of definition. "Feminism" is a moving target and means whatever feminists want it to mean when it suits them. If "feminism" means support for equal rights and duties, then fine, I'm a feminist. If it means supporting that piece of shit narcissistic fraud Sarkeesian then hell, fuck no, I'm not a feminist.

We_Are_Legion · 2014-09-15T19:11:08+00:00

Fair points. But now that you've gotten that out of your system. Let me clarify something for you.

You are NOT necessarily being referred to. fact.

Keep in mind a lot of RP men, within our own lingo, refer to their past selves as BP(a very common use of the term, actually). Or of their environments as BP. Or (this ones important) of THE BLUE PILL EXAMPLES WE CONSTANTLY POST AS BEING BP. I can't believe its not obvious.

Just because your satire sub took its name to be Blue pill, from within the same analogy we did, DOES NOT mean we've suddenly started caring about you. Or your association with that name.

Now with that mind, lets go just a bit further; it is confusing, we know. But often we do refer to TBP as BP too, simply because that's your name and because most of us don't go on your sub and instead just choose to caricature it(satire satire). Thus, you are stuck with the archetype of BP from everywhere else. Because you took the name. Its like people rib on retards and someone took the name "retard" to spite them. Well-intentioned, but kinda dumb.

Most people who use BP to genuinely refer to TBP are already in PPD. So I mean this in the politest way possible, but TRP really doesn't care about your arguments, beliefs or ideology(or lack thereof). Stop trying to explain.

The people in PPD, are the exceptions. Otherwise, RP never discusses your ideology. The people in PPD do(or assume) because according to the rules of debate, both side -have- to have a position.

To us, we define blue pill exactly as it stands in top voted posts/the glossary. And just like being RP lies on a spectrum, and is open to interpretation. BP lies on a spectrum and is open to interpretation.

Here is my own definition of BP, as I've always used it.

I don't know about TBP, but I've always defined BP as the quality of not being able or willing to consider things that are uncomfortable or difficult to reconcile with your current beliefs.

Even if you're the type that takes RP's ideas on game, power-talk, strategy, etc to heart but choose to bypass putting any consideration into why it works, you are still BP. Even if you buy into improving your SMV, but reject practical realities like hypergamy simply because it feels bad(and not evidence), you are BP. I do think there are BP alphas for example.

I define red pill as the quality of being pragmatic, and willing to question the truth you've been fed. There are people here who consider RP as a messiah, or as delivering something they deserve, rather than an amoral tool that exists... I consider them pretty BP too. They still buy into their ego and personal-centric viewset.

(From the most recent thread discussing BP here, the OP mentions TBP as a confused off-handed question as afterthought, and STILL most people associate BP with their own meanings. See if you can spot a comment reference to TBP except where a self-stated TBPer shows up, or isn't a discussion of RP where TBP views are off-handedly mentioned or made fun of. Hell, some people are surprised TBP exists.)

hyperrreal · 2014-09-15T20:04:35+00:00

Ok sure but how can mirrors be real if our eyes aren't real? ;)

an_absolute_rose · 2014-09-15T19:24:50+00:00

I find it interesting, because it seems the distinction of BluePill simply being not Redpill as opposed to the opposite of Redpill is lost on many RPers.

The red pill ideology had a definition for blue pill people long before y'all "clever" and "witty" "satirical masterminds" created /r/thebluepill.

Mirrors of red pill exist and many red pillers were these mirrors at one time or another. We have long called those mirrors and that behavior blue pill.

I wouldn't expect people to not be confused if I were to identify as a black man even though I am in fact white. If you bluepers wish to avoid confusion perhaps you should come up with your own ideology.

Those "in charge" seem to "freely" give out this "advice", so I'd really love to know what the motives of those in charge are? I mean, you aren't just giving away this "information" because you love your fellow man and feel bad. In the RP world, altruism doesn't exist. Why teach a man to fish when you could just soak up all that delicious Tuna on your own?

Perhaps you are unaware that /r/theredpill is in fact a non profit sub. I can't quite think of any subs on reddit that are for profit. I spread the knowledge I have gained so that my friends and brothers can prosper. I don't give it away because I feel bad that I'm hoarding life's secrets or some bullshit. I give it away because I care about their well being. I wasn't always so fortunate and I can empathize with men who were once in my shoes. I can see when my friends and brothers are putting on a mask of happiness like men often do. It doesn't have to be that way. I can teach men to fish and I have and I hope to continue to do so. I'm of the mindset that if more blue pill betas got laid instead of becoming Incels we would have less mindless bloodshed like school shootings and whatnot.

And yes I'm referring to the red pill definition of "blue pill betas".

SirNemesis · 2014-09-16T03:26:55+00:00

Blue pill was a term coined by the red pill community. Hence the red pill community gets to define the term. If you don't agree with blue pill views, don't call yourself blue pill. Don't expect us to change the meaning of the term just because you want to go ahead and call yourself blue pill.

GridReXX · 2014-09-15T18:54:25+00:00

Thank you for this.

I disagree with the toxicity, sexism, and misogyny of TRP, but that doesn't mean I think men and women should pedestal one another, supplicate to one another, not care about how they present, not care about frame, have reckless sex (this is personal morality on my part), etc...

Just because I disagree that a woman isn't a woman unless she is home taking care of the children and cooking meals, doesn't mean that I think a man should sacrifice his happiness for anyone or that he should suffer verbal abuse, etc... It doesn't mean I think women are "angels" and men are "devils."

More or less people are people and incentives, how they were raised, exposure, experience, and support networks or lack thereof, will affect their decisions and choices.

[deleted] · 2014-09-15T20:38:53+00:00

People exist on a sliding scale. Most arguments are presented as absolutes to present a compelling view, but it takes wisdom (no matter your side) to know that there are no absolutes.

TheScamr · 2014-09-15T22:10:08+00:00

A key thing about the Red Pill is they don't believe in hedging their words with so many disclaimers that what they say loses some meaning.

So they speak in clear unequivocally statements with the understanding that if what they say does not apply to you then you should not need a disclaimer.

To a certain extent speaking clearly and directly has its benefits. If you think something applies to 90% of the population then you are on solid ground when you say "men this" or "women that."

You get basic distinctions across through dichotomies. It is a useful teaching tool. You trust that people are smart enough to know there are no absolute dichotomy out there. And since they are no absolute dichotomies then to a certain extent all dichotomies are false. If they cannot realize that then they cannot understand nuance anyway.

If you see a RP guy call all women bitches then you know where he is coming from. You know there is anger there. You may not know exactly where it is from, but you know it is there.

[deleted] · 2014-09-16T05:33:26+00:00

but if you're not RP you realize that compromise is OK

A compromise requires two parties on roughly equal standong, which doesn't happen in a male-female (sexual) relationship.

That's like trying to "compromise" when buying a can of coke. You either pay the listed price or you can get the fuck out of the store. Neither the store nor the Coca Cola company will give a damn either way.

soylentblueissmurfs · 2014-09-15T19:00:13+00:00

Those "in charge" seem to "freely" give out this "advice", so I'd really love to know what the motives of those in charge are? I mean, you aren't just giving away this "information" because you love your fellow man and feel bad. In the RP world, altruism doesn't exist. Why teach a man to fish when you could just soak up all that delicious Tuna on your own?

Empathy? I suffer when my friends suffer. I even suffer reading about some anonymous foreigner with relationship problems. The RP message is not that altruism doesn't exist, but that it is a lever that people will use to manipulate you, making your accept shitty relationships out of obligation. By insight into the psychology of yourself and others you can make informed choices about when you want to sacrifice for your ideals.

Obviously some "RP" writers will try to make money off suckers by selling their "wisdom" and roping in gullible or desperate people but I don't see how this is more evil than the BP advocates telling people to be happy about not having control of their lives.

2) RP hates all aspects of feminism - BP LOVES all aspects of feminism, its outcomes, and agrees without question While I think most RPers don't really understand feminism at its core, the idea that not Redpillers love all aspects of feminism is preposterous. Much like the civil rights movement, Feminism has brought about positive change in society for all people (not just the special interests they represent). However, much like the Civil Rights movement, there are factions which have misused the cause to further their own toxic and seemingly militant ideas. For the most part though, those ideas remain on the fringe.

This is blatantly wrong. I was an active feminist before I turned RP, what turned me off was the intellectual dishonesty and the failure of feminist sociological models to predict reality. I don't believe a currently blind ideology can create positive change (as it did in the past).

VarsitySlutTeamCpt · 2014-09-15T21:36:34+00:00

I think RP would get a better idea if the only thing in your sidebar wasnt "BP is a satire of RP"

I also think its funny that TRP doesnt recruit anyone, in fact TRP get subs when some BP post hatred about RP in the front page, so you've got your camp to blame for.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2014-09-15T23:35:11+00:00

1) Find the disaffected, disillusioned, and angry

2) Tell them you know just how they feel and make them feel "a part of something"

3) Bring them in and give them something to point their anger at

4) Justify that anger and any negative, even harmful, (re)actions to further your cause,

5) Silence any dissenting opinion and tell people to "tow the line" or leave.

Sounds like SRS and the various affiliated SJW type subs.

drok007 · 2014-09-15T19:12:01+00:00

And not everyone who is RP believes everything on TRP. There is a spectrum of sorts here. So right back at you.

BPers have a tendency to want to say, the good parts of TRP can be found elsewhere so they are not TRP. Well so can the bad parts by that logic, so it doesn't make any sense to say that. You just want to say, "I agree with some of TRP but I don't want to say I agree with the TRP" so you're going to say "that's not TRP" if you agree with the concept.

On a side note, I'd like to know which RP foot soldiers are doing the dirty work for which RP leaders? What is that dirty work? And what is the goal? I feel like this is grasping at straws.

Phokus · 2014-09-15T19:52:02+00:00

However, much like the Civil Rights movement, there are factions which have misused the cause to further their own toxic and seemingly militant ideas. For the most part though, those ideas remain on the fringe.

Heh

rufusjonz · 2014-09-15T20:11:47+00:00

On the counterargument about ALL or NONE, I've posted to TRP, TBP, here, AskTRP, Seduction, etc --

Last time I commented in TBP (not in a confrontational way whatsoever, I was basically agreeing with them), I got downvoted, mocked, criticized because someone either knew or looked at my profile and proclaimed I was a "Redpiller" ... and basically I had no redeeming qualities because of that and there are no valid points to anything on that sub or similar ones.

[deleted] · Tue Sep 16 15:22:11 2014 UTC

[permanently deleted]

[deleted] · 2014-09-17T14:07:21+00:00

Nice post.

I've pointed out in the past about how white rights groups exploit those that that have problems, economical or otherwise.

So do cults.

They prey on the vulnerable by claiming to know what the problem is (never themselves), and how to fix it.

StabbyPants · 2014-09-19T01:55:01+00:00

that's what you get for defining yourself in opposition to some other group.

Phokus · 2014-09-15T19:53:31+00:00

Again, this isn't true. People aren't all nice. Many people are vindictive and incapable of fully loving anyone. This isn't reserved specifically to women. People scheme and backstab to further their own selfish goals. People cheat and lie and steal. Again, none of this is specifically reserved for women. There are just shitty people in the world of all races, religions, colors, creed, sex, what have you. Have any RPers stopped to think maybe they just go after really shitty people and it's not that all people are shitty? It's a bit duplicitous to suggest that all women are a certain way and do not differ, but that men can be different from each other (alpha vs beta, which is a false dichotomy anyway, but alas, such a discussion is outside the scope of this post).

There's a BP bias (and society in general) that women are angels, it's called the 'women are wonderful effect'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E2%80%9CWomen_are_wonderful%E2%80%9D_effect

If BPers really called out shitty people, they'd be calling out feminists too, which is really TRP's mirror image to some degree. Of course they don't because many BPers are feminists themselves.

GODZILLAFLAMETHROWER · 2014-09-15T22:32:27+00:00

Thank you for this post. This is exactly my feeling about this whole debate. This is the reason I refuse to call myself purple pill, because the moderate stance is fully blue pill. Blue pill is not the extreme ground TRP makes it out to be. They manipulate the language, shift the ideas so that you have to define yourself in opposition to their rhetoric. Some broke this by calling themself purple pill, but I believe that the negation of this rhetoric is calling them on their bullshit and fully embracing the name of Blue Pill, with all the nuances it allows.

[deleted] · 2014-09-16T04:11:32+00:00

Did you have a greater point or do simply you like hearing yourself bleet out completely obvious shit?

lev21pirate · 2014-09-15T19:03:34+00:00

The bluepill is the self described Caricature & satire of The redpill.

So you'll have to forgive us for taking you guys as the joke you made yourself up to be.

RedPill4LYF · 2014-09-15T21:47:34+00:00

Look, I didn't read this whole thing, but if you're going to get into an argument about semantics, you need to understand the label you're posting with. If you are red pill, then you have red pill views, and need to be prepared for people to argue with you in that light, even if you don't necessarily follow everything TRP teaches. if you believe you are blue pill, then you need to be ready to argue from the position of what a blue piller would believe. If you don't want to be talked to like you are a mirror as you're saying, then choose the purple pill label. It'll save you the headache.

autopornbot · 2014-09-15T22:28:41+00:00

It's very possible to be neither red pill, nor blue pill. Blue pill is a name for guys who willingly decide to deny reality and continue to believe the inaccurate fairy tales about women that we're told growing up. Red pill is a name for guys that decide to take advantage of knowing what the reality of who women are, and who men are, to further their goals of more sex with less cost. Unfortunately, a lot of those guys also develop an equally unrealistic view of women as the ultimate evil or something.

There should be a few more categories - one for the majority of people who are just somewhere in between, MGTOWs, and maybe one for guys who know how women operate and live as they want to but recognize that NAWALT and aren't jaded about it (I guess those are the real RP guys, but the vocal ones who think that all women are gold digging sluts out to fuck them over have claimed the name, or something). I haven't thought that out really well.

But the point is, you sound like you aren't BP. There are too many factors for there to be only two groups into which everyone belongs.

must_throw_away_now · 2014-09-16T01:12:21+00:00

Its funny I am getting the old TRP downvote brigade in a sub that doesn't allow down voting. You guys are top notch!

Title	We Are Not Your Mirror Image
Author	must_throw_away_now
Upvotes	26
Comments	144
Date	September 15, 2014 6:24 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2ghcm1/we_are_not_your_mirror_image/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/we-are-not-your-mirror-image.284859 https://theredarchive.com/post/284859

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