My own brother just chastised me, telling me that misandry doesn't exist.

TheSacredParsnip · 2012-10-15T14:11:33+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Xenoith · 2012-10-15T14:26:16+00:00

Your brother is a fucking SRS moron, his entire concept is off. All this image is trying to say is that women shouldn't be allowed to get away with these things, it's not saying men should be allowed to get away with them. It's just hilariously stupid to think that's what it's implying. On some of the images like splitting the bill, it's saying a man shouldn't have to feel cheap for doing something that is now normal, while women are proud of it. On the image of hitting, it's saying a woman shouldn't be allowed to hit with no consequences.

NiteTiger · 2012-10-15T16:29:45+00:00

Don't hit him with a wall of text, just ask him to please quit raping, beating, and treating women as second class citizens.

When he says he doesn't, and never would, then ask him why it's okay for him to be assumed to do so in the law, the courts, and popular media.

When he says that doesn't happen, start feeding the links...

Sacoud · 2012-10-15T14:48:57+00:00

I posted this earlier, you're welcome to use it

Suicide

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnational-health4/suicides-in-the-united-kingdom/2010/stb-statistical-bulletin.html

Divorce courts

http://www.divorcepeers.com/stats18.htm

http://www.coeffic.demon.co.uk/stats.htm (this is fully referenced at the bottom)

Education

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/aug/25/gcse-results-girls-beat-boys (when boys do better it's because the system is sexist, when girls do better it's because they're smarter)

Violence

I've thrown in female on male assault which is ignored, http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

and some other sources for your reading pleasure.

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/uwekw/facts_and_statistics_detailing_male_oppression/

Jovial_Gorilla · 2012-10-15T17:55:55+00:00

You know... when I hear men try to deny that misandry exists, I always think of women that insist that women's roles are at a whole to be limited to being housewives that don't wish to pursue careers. I believe in full rights and responsibilities for both genders, and that's when I realized that I was an MRA.

Your brother hasn't realized that his gender is indeed limiting to him in some, if not many ways. To quote feminist Gloria Steinem (ironically): The truth will set you free, but it will piss you off first.

TheMuffnMan · 2012-10-15T14:11:51+00:00

You link him to this subreddit and hope he gets over himself enough to read some of the postings.

I mean shit, having him read any number of the divorce threads on here where well qualified dads are being denied access to their children by a jaded court system should be enough to at least have him admit there is an issue.

double-happiness · 2012-10-15T17:57:24+00:00

Here's the aspect I think you should concentrate on:

you need to invent excuses and reasons why you can continue to be a terrible human being [...] an excuse to not even try at all [...] an excuse to keep being a male rights shithead.

His theme of you supposedly making 'excuses' for your behaviour is noticeable. You need to confront him and ask him if he really feels you are 'a terrible human being', a 'shithead' and that you 'don't even try at all'. Until he has responded there is nothing you can say. This kind of personal slur must be confronted and refuted, especially coming from your own brother. Once he admits you're not actually a shitty human being, he has to agree you've got no reason to make excuses for bad behaviours you don't take part in. Don't try to debate facts until he backs down on the slurs. There's no point debating politics with someone who views you as swine.

Arby01 · 2012-10-15T18:27:49+00:00

Have to agree with other posters. That phrase "misandry doesn't real" is very specific to someone who is aware of the controversy and has chosen to shut his mind off.

I like most of your reply. I would dump the last sentence. There is no need to label yourself.

The last paragraph, I would remove the "domestic violence victims" sentence.

Here is my reasoning - the realization that men comprise nearly half of all domestic violence victims and at least a third of serious injuries from domestic violence is a red pill. The media scream so loudly that only women can be victims of domestic violence that nobody accepts this information. The only people that speak of this are MRAs and MRA-related groups. That sentence identifies you as MRA.

Similarly labelling yourself an MRA, identifies you as an MRA. The rest of your reply poses clear arguments about double standards that make you r brother look like an ass.

As soon as he sees the DV statement or the MRA statement, that will be license to completely ignore everything else you have written "because you hate women".

Without the MRA specific items, you might have a chance at discussion, with it, well, he's an SRS'er equivalent, sorry.

(You may want to keep a couch open for him when karma comes home to roost)

Nepene · 2012-10-15T15:26:32+00:00

"For starters, I never used the word misandry. And do you seriously view me as someone that wants to make it okay for men to sexually assault women? Nice to see how little opinion you have of me."

By restating his opinion you are confirming it. This is what he'll think. "You never used the word misandry? It felt like you did.

Better to rephrase it in a way that ties into his inner monologue.

"I simply want everyone to not be treated like shitheads. It sucks that women are treated like shitheads, and in my experience a lot of the worst sexists are that way because life treated them bad. Rather than being sexist to them again I want to stop that sexism and stop all sexual assault."

"Secondly, what made you think I wanted to be a jerk towards women? I pointed out a double stranded here. That's all. And it IS a double standard. I hold myself up to the same moral expectations, and in the age of equality it's not suppose to be considered misogynistic when you expect the other gender to do the same. You seem to be under the assumption that I want to behave that way, and this is not the case."

Better to add some positive support- reference some female friends who you love and wouldn't hurt. Asking him lots of questions sounds evasive.

"And I'd like to see that 99% statistic back up by evidence. You're asserting that only 226,206 Australians treat women as equals, and that's absurd unless it's backed with evidence."

He doesn't like what you're saying so the burden of proof is on you. You have to do better than asking him for evidence

http://www.responseability.org/site/index.cfm?display=134569

This is pretty strong evidence- more men commit suicide because they feel downtrodden and second ckass,

And in the age of equality (FOR ALL) me pointing out double standards shouldn't attract a shitfit based upon assumptions. They'd warrant an 'explain yourself', not an assumption of 'you hate wimmin' rant. Are you 12, good sir? A conversation over something usually start with people being allowed to explain their position.

This is fine.

"Men are frequently downtrodden, and quite seriously. Some cases men are treated worse than women. Men are constantly and habitually ignored when they appeal to the police against abuse, rape, vandalism (from women), and violence. Men are constantly being downtrodden over custody of their kids, even when they're are proven to be the more capable parent."

This is fine.

Domestic violence victims are alternating between 40% to 60% men according to location, yet the police are told to arrest the guy regardless. The majorly of homeless people is, by far and large, men. There's an airline that's banned men from sitting next to kids, despite the only reported case(s) of a child being sexually assaulted/harassed has been done by women, stating that they'd rather assume men are all paedophiles in order to be 'safe'.

These aren't small things, and it's correcting these things that Men's Rights Activists are about, not being jerks to women.

Maybe add.

"We're really not all big strong men, we're just people trying to get by in a sexist world, often against big strong men in the police who hate other men. I've often found that men are the worst sexists, women tend to be more supportive of protecting men, men feel they have something to prove and are more sexist.

Chowley_1 · 2012-10-15T15:30:14+00:00

Misandry doesn't real

I stopped reading right there. Nothing he said after that was of any importance.

anecdotal · 2012-10-15T14:33:34+00:00

"Misandry doesn't real." Compelling argument. The ~~subtle~~ overt use of poor grammar really exposes the absurdity in the claims of Mens' Rights activists. I guess I'll unsubscribe from this sub now. /s

SentientWinter · 2012-10-15T15:01:57+00:00

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McFeely_Smackup · 2012-10-15T18:39:57+00:00

Trust me on this, if you try to argue broad points, it will be like trying to squeeze a wet bar of soap. Ask him to pick ONE issue that he feels most defines the "misandry doesn't real" side. Argue that with facts. He WILL try to slide off into other areas as the facts become difficult to oppose, ignore that and drag him back on topic.

You won't convince him of anything, but you will enjoy the moral victory of forcing him to acknowledge his own difficulty in defending ONE simple point.

kronox · 2012-10-15T14:59:34+00:00

I once brought up the MRM at a party and this dude says "wait, men's rights? Don't you mean women's rights?". Its to the point where even men are saying they shouldn't have rights. I set the poor lad straight but he had clearly never pondered the subject in his life.

Vacuitymechanica · 2012-10-15T14:29:38+00:00

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taktubu · 2012-10-15T15:14:40+00:00

Your brother is probably a member of SRS. Since their only function is to circlejerk, ignore him.

Hamakua · 2012-10-15T18:27:14+00:00

Link him to "The Talk" castration video.

Then tell him to reverse the roles.

If that doesn't do it, no hope and just drop it, in a few years when he gets burned personally by some asymmetrical policy, he might come around.

DeanOnFire · 2012-10-15T19:27:46+00:00

I can't take anyone seriously that says "Misandry doesn't real". Usually it's SRS and Tumblr, but still.

NiggerJew944 · 2012-10-15T23:22:02+00:00

Let me help you out.

Summary: 21.45% of couples reported violence. Male-to-female violence was reported in 13.66% of couples, while 18.20% for female-to-male violence. Thus, women are 1.33 times as likely to be violent. (Severe violence only raises this ratio to more than 2x as likely.)

http://smu.edu/experts/study-documents/family-violence-study-may2006.pdf

SUMMARY: Men admission of assault agrees with rates of women claiming to be assaulted. Women admission of assault disagrees with rates of men being assaulted. (ie: women do not admit to their assault, recognize their assault, take responsibility for assault. Rates of assaults were not found to be significantly different between genders.

http://www.fact.on.ca/Info/dom/heady99.htm

SUMMARY: Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases.

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2005.079020

SUMMARY: Social approval of male-to-female violence has significantly dropped over 40 years, while approval of female-to-male violence remains steady. Overall, female-to-male violence has risen while male-to-female violence rates have remained constant or decreased (depending on type.)

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V70%20version%20N3.pdf

SUMMARY: This bibliography examines 286 scholarly investigations: 221 empirical studies and 65 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 371,600.

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

SUMMARY: Girls are 1.38x more physically aggressive in teen violent relationships.

http://www.nij.gov/journals/261/teen-dating-violence.htm

Charts - http://www.nij.gov/journals/261/who-perpetrates.htm

SUMMARY: Predictors of intimate violence with women appear to be similar to those of men; including antisocial criminal records, alcohol abuse, and personality disorders.

http://lab.drdondutton.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/DUTTON-NICHOLLS-AND-SPIDEL-2005-FEMALE-PERPETRATORS-OF-INTIMATE-VIOLENCE.pdf

TracyMorganFreeman · 2012-10-16T02:51:11+00:00

The troll/SRS is strong in your brother.

They're basically accusing you of wanting to be a jerk because women get away with it, instead of wanting to hold women responsible for being jerks just like men are.

They're riding a massive, horse shaped strawman into the City of Troy

jolly_mcfats · 2012-10-16T06:54:11+00:00

There are a lot of good suggestions here, but I'd also point out that your brother is severely overreacting, and understanding why might be productive. You posted a cartoon and a one phrase response, and he projected a massive strawman onto you. I don't know who he thinks he is arguing with, but it isn't you.

I would probably start with that, and tell him that I wasn't even interested in having a dialog with him if he couldn't listen to what you say, and limit his responses to that. If he can handle that, talk to him about what men's rights means to you- you don't have to take your entire platform from this thread, but the things you do agree with seem to have ample support in this thread, let alone this subreddit. Regardless of whether or not "some women are jerks", there are a lot of real issues. There just are. Many feminists agree with this, even if they cannot stand being made uncomfortable by the mens's rights movement. My guess is that if your brother is confronted with a consistent, egalistarian argument, he will continue to make an ass of himself, which should be easy to point out if you keep your head. You won't really have a dialog until he stops presenting straw men. Once he does, maybe you two can have a real discussion, and both come out thinking.

Funcuz · 2012-10-15T16:07:34+00:00

I've noticed that quite often , no matter how righteous or compelling your argument may be , those who have bought into the other side will almost never back down when confronted with facts .

The only way around this , really , is to let them think they came to a revelation by themselves .

So , what you do is provide your brother with links to scholarly articles and credible statistics . Then you simply present them to him and tell him that the proof of what you say is there for him to see . If he wants to know more then he's welcome to ask .

Don't shame , cajole , or prod . Don't waste your time trying to confront him with any of it . Simply say "Here it is ... the proof of what I'm telling you ."

As the old saying goes , you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar .

ExpendableOne · 2012-10-15T20:29:19+00:00

It's so sad that your brother actually believes in all the shit feminism comes up with, most of which are completely biased, wrong and immoral in of themselves, to try to justify a misandric predisposition.

2012-10-15T20:32:49+00:00

I'd just write the first four paragraphs.

The last three will be too much, too fast for someone who has already assumed much off of you and attacked you on a semi-public forum (Facebook).

MetalKeirSolid · 2012-10-15T21:38:29+00:00

What a complete toss-pot.

implying I feel men can be shitheads just because it's acceptable for women to be in certain situations.

implying the existence of one overarching sexism such as that against women COMPLETELY overuns the existence of sexism working the other way.

753861429-951843627 · 2012-10-15T21:42:23+00:00

The real problem here isn't even your brother's opinion of the MRM, or disregarding misandry. The real problem is that your brother thinks you are "a terrible human being", "male-rights shithead", "not a man" (paraphrased) and somebody who should "go fuck [themselves]". Is your relationship with your brother very distant? If any of my relatives turned out to have weird views I can't support (and this has happened), that wouldn't suddenly change everything I know about them. Unless you have a history of beating women or some such, I'd really wonder how it is possible that your brother would think so little of you. I'd address that, personally.

2012-10-15T21:45:13+00:00

His comment misandry doesn't real is an SRS lingo statement. I'm tired of replying to their hate speech. Replying for others to see might be useful but he's not going to care and will just keep arguing. I'm tired of every thread in /MR having something to do with SRS.

DerpaNerb · 2012-10-15T22:39:46+00:00

Link him one of those crazy feminists that think 99% of men should have their dicks chopped off. And then ask him if that is misandry. It doesn't matter if it's a mainstream view... all it takes is showing that at least one person hates men for being men... boom misandry proven real.

You can then ask him what he thinks about each individual "scenario" in that picture and if he actually thinks none of those double standards exist. Links to "the view" where they have a good chuckle about a guy getting his dick chopped off (I really am not trying to make dicks being chopped off a central theme to this), or hell, even ask him to explain the difference between circumcision and FGM and why one is socially acceptable and the other is worse than hitler.

Next, you can ask him to show you an example of women being objectified or presented with unrealistic standards... He'll probably show you a magazine, or barbie, or like tomb raider/lara croft, and how they all are super skinny and have big tits. Turn around and show him stuff like the movie "magic mike", or basically any male video game protagonist and ask him how it's any different.... Sorry, but my biceps are not the size of my thighs.

"A standard you refuse to hold to yourself"... your brother sounds like a dipshit.

Ask him how 3x lower suicide rate, 3x lower workplace death rate, 2-3x lower homelessness rate, 3-4x higher jail rate, 2x higher sentencing for crimes, women doing better in school, women claiming the majority of college degrees, single female graduates under 30 making 10% more....and all that stuff (with studies to back it up, I'm sure someone here can oblige you with the actual statistics) somehow equals men being first class citizens (or as he put it, women being second class).

Don't let him use all these emotional argument bullshit that tries to paint you as a misogynist (the fact that he used the word like 4 times) to try and win the argument. Just point out facts and challenge each of his stated "facts" directly. Don't fall into the trap of trying to defend the stuff that he has no right of accusing you of.

Memyselfsomeotherguy · 2012-10-15T23:28:55+00:00

Men are objectified. As creepers, as soldiers, firefighters, deadbeat dads, bumbling dads. Not all of these are bad, but they do impose, and not all "objectification" of women is inherently bad either. But it exists on both sides, and to deny it is refuse to see. Not trying to convince you, just putting down my thoughts.

JizzCreek · 2012-10-16T00:03:51+00:00

Repeat after me

Misandry doesn't real

Misandry doesn't real

Misandry doesn't real

What kind of fucked up Orwellian shit is this?

Lonemango · 2012-10-16T00:16:17+00:00

I think a simple "Lol" would suffice. it's really all his response warrants.

However, I think I would just reply,"Dude, it's just a picture.". He is obviously not capable of thinking rationally about this particular subject and therefore you should not even try to debate it with him. He is too emotionally invested in his view, for whatever reason. I dont think this is worth the very real risk of losing your brotherly relationship with him. He ,hopefully, will realize he overreacted and will probably apologize, but that will only happen if you don't try to defend MRM.Unfortunately in a battle between logic and emotions, logic always loses. When, or if , he feels bad you can explain to him why his post made you feel shitty, then he may be more likely to listen to you.

Good luck to you.

2012-10-16T01:09:10+00:00

Explain to your brother that in this infographic, they're depicting both the male and the female perpetrators as equally terrible people. Tell him that it's meant to illustrate that while feminism has gotten rid of obligations expected of females, it hasn't yet gotten rid of certain privileges enjoyed by females, and that egalitarianism is about being equal to all people, even if they fit into a previously privileged class.

PandaSandwich · 2012-10-16T04:14:51+00:00

Your brother is a SRSter. The "misandry don't real" is a SRS thing.

ENTP · 2012-10-16T23:15:56+00:00

Statistics.

I can hook you up with a few (referenced) lists, if you're interested.

Suicide: 75% men (more in certain demographics)

Homeless: 74% men

Job related injuries and death: 93%

Prison population: 93.5% men

Longer sentences for identical crimes. (Will have to look up the numbers)

Issues:

Male genital mutilation

Normalization of violence against men in the media as "humor"

Men are portrayed as generally more abusive, though women are the primary abusers of children.

Paternity fraud, and all the fucked up laws that allow women to do it.

Men are ATMs

Discrimination in family court

There's more, and I can cite everything, if you like.

My own brother just chastised me, telling me that misandry doesn't exist.

Update Thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/11kb2y/update_my_own_brother_just_chastised_me_telling/

Comments

Title	My own brother just chastised me, telling me that misandry doesn't exist.
Author	Vacuitymechanica
Upvotes	72
Comments	65
Date	October 15, 2012 11:45 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/11i9ed/my_own_brother_just_chastised_me_telling_me_that/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/my-own-brother-just-chastised-me-telling-me-that.1011316 https://theredarchive.com/post/1011316