On women in the MRM -

themountaingoat · 2011-12-30T12:03:01+00:00

I find using sources can work better than arguing in person. Warren farrell is a good introduction to the MRM for many. Maybe try saying that the MRM is actually the best way to solve women's problems, as evidence based solutions always work better than blaming someone who is not responsible, for example Warren Farrell has the steps that women need to do to earn more in his analysis of the wage gap

Also try to be less aggressive with your arguments and talk more about why personally you became a MRA. I have found women always react better if you talk about your personal reasons for supporting things.

What do you mean you feel sidelined by a lot of the men in the movement?

The_Patriarchy · 2011-12-30T20:47:40+00:00

It's a tough situation. Feminists have been painting non-feminists as "misogynists" for a while now, much like christians have been painting atheists as "satanists". Outing yourself as a non-feminist is a big decision and its not something you should do if you're not ready. I assume you're a woman, so it may be a little easier for you in some respects (i.e. it will be harder to pigeonhole you as a "misogynist"), but as you're already seeing it's still very difficult. Ultimately, you may have to decide whether you want to keep your friends, or stand behind your own beliefs.

Should you decide to stand behind your beliefs (and if you don't, that's understandable), I would really suggest engaging your friends (those that reacted negatively) in dialogue about the meaning of the term "feminism". I would start by explaining that feminism is not simply "equality", but that it's a set of very specific beliefs:

Men and women are entitled to equal rights and respect.
Women are currently disadvantaged with respect to rights and respect, compared with men […in such and such respects and due to such and such conditions…].
In order that said equality may come about, women bust be advantaged and/or men must be disadvantaged.

If they question this definition, point them to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and ask them how, based on that definition, for a person holding those beliefs, equality could come about any way other than raising women up/bringing men down? Once this is established, the question becomes "are women disadvantaged compared to men?" In which case I would direct them to this video which makes a pretty strong case for "no". It's at this point that I would point out that you're not denying the need for or validity of feminism in less developed parts of the world (e.g. the middle east) -- as clearly men have more rights and privileges than women in those countries -- nor are you denying that women can be disadvantaged compared to men -- just that said disadvantage doesn't cut clearly across gender lines in the west.

The video I provided should be enough to convince reasonable people that women in the west are not disadvantaged as a gender. Should that not be the case, then I recommend pointing to clear situations where men, as a gender are disadvantaged (e.g. genital mutilation [1], selective service [2], sentencing disparities [3], family law [4] [5] [6], etc.). Be prepared to offer counterarguments against myths like the wage gap, various rape myths, etc., but avoid them if possible because they will derail the discussion.

By now, you should have made it very clear that A) feminism is not simply a desire for "equality", and B) that women, as a class, are not disadvantaged relative to men, as a class, in the west. If you don't feel they've been convinced of this, then don't go any further...as they likely won't be convinced by you regardless of your efforts. If they have, however, then it's time to finish the argument with the following: if women are not below men in our society, then what is the effect of raising them up? Is that equality? No, that is supremacy. Supremacy is likely not the intention, but it is the effect. AFTER you've made your argument and they are considering your position, have them watch this video.

You will lose friends over this.

2011-12-30T15:50:31+00:00

Its a tough subject, whether male or female, to bring up. Feminism is so grounded in ideology, so deluded by its lies, that participants literally cannot see outside of the paradigm set up. The radfems hate all men, the moderates still think they are discriminated, even when they clearly aren't, and most women will identify as feminist, even without outwardly participating in it. They are silent participants in a way.

This will probably sound sexist, but I think it is easier for a woman to approach these issues with other women [obviously not all the time.] That's why people like GirlWritesWhat so much, because she so eloquent, calm, and rational. At the same time, a lot of women are going to think you are crazy or whatever. If you were a man you would simply be called a misogynist, or a woman hater. I very rarely am able to discuss misandry, or male discrimination unless it is with men who have actually faced the discrimination of false rape, false child abuse, female dv, child custody, monetary issues in divorce, or a false paternity. I personally know men who have had their lives wrecked by these issues, and no one else can even fathom that men could possibly be discriminated in the modern era, and to them its a blatant lie that men were ever oppressed in human history. I dare not bring these issues up at the dinner table or in polite company, or else I'd find myself rather quickly devoid of the company of females, whom I very much like.

What that long winded reply means, is that I think you are in a unique position to help people see other sides, and learn the truth about feminism because you are a woman. It will be easier for you to approach the subject because of your gender. That said, it is still taboo to discuss men's issues, modern, or past, and you can and will face alienation by bringing it up.

My main advice is to be careful, but keep moving forward. Its still the early stages of this. People have been speaking out since the 70s and 80s, but it is with the power of the internet information is really coming out. Thousands of gender studies [truly women's studies and feminism]] grads come out every year. I believe there is only one Male Studies program, and it is in its infancy. There is a large pool of false literature distributed, and it will take time to change, but we are making waves, and making progress.

I applaud your efforts. Sometimes you lose friends for your beliefs. I'm sorry about that.

mikesteane · 2011-12-30T12:04:38+00:00

Rights come with responsibilities. Equal rights for women should have been balanced with equal responsibilities such as registering for the draft, giving up their lives to defend their country and being obliged to support their families. What do feminists have to say about equal responsibilities. Hardly a dicky bird.

C0CKPUNCHER · 2011-12-30T13:00:12+00:00

I know more women (in person not online) that are ok with mens rights than men that are ok with mens rights.

Demonspawn · 2011-12-30T12:07:36+00:00

People just associate themselves with feminism because it is preached that feminists are for equality, yet nobody knows what an egalitarian is. I would suggest showing them things like this: http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/g2eme/feminists_tell_you_that_the_solution_to_mens/

and

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/659dkrod.asp

Explain to them that THIS is the problem with feminism. You are an egalitarian. Tell them that is truly someone who fights for equality. You need to prove it to them. I have no idea at all why that girl would cry, that seems EXTREMELY overdramatic, but who knows. But don't listen to Jeremiah. All women aren't horrible creatures. The thing is, most actually do believe that feminism is for equality. The problem is, people don't want to research into anything, and just automatically assume that it's true. This, along with the brainwashing "Gender" Studies classes use, gives people a skewed outlook on things. If your female friends aren't completely biased idiots, they will at least look at the proof you have. Show them things like how female-male domestic violence is hidden, and actually made to be a joke. Bring up things like how "The Talk" used that instance of a man chopping off a woman's penis as a joke. Things like that. Also, show them the radical feminists, and what they do. Then if they use the "Not ALL feminists are like that!" then bring up that by not excommunicating them from the feminists movement, they are allowing things like that to go on. Relate it to be how it would be like a white person who doesn't openly state how the KKK is bad. Completely distrusting all women because they're women is not something you should do like Jeremiah suggests. It's unhealthy. Most women, believe it or not, actually aren't like the radical feminists. They are just brainwashed into thinking feminism is for equality because they have never been shown anything against that notion. I would suggest you talk to your friends about it, and explain how you don't want to lose a friendship over it.

TheUsualChaos · 2011-12-30T11:41:30+00:00

Try saying you're an equalist, not a feminist. That helps sometimes.

Roulette88888 · 2011-12-30T17:34:00+00:00

As an American, I treat feminism in public much like I treat christianity - the followers are very widespread, very mainstream, very fanatical, and quick to claim they are persecuted while actually holding most of the power.

You don't just tell a christian/feminist they are wrong though. That's immediately activating their conditioned response patterns. They've been indoctrinated to have automatic reflex reactions to 'non-believers'. They will simply and instantly view you as a sub-human degenerate, essentially an evil person. You treat them instead like you would a cult member being deprogrammed.

You see christianity/feminism falls apart not when you attack it - but when you force people to actually sort parts of it out for themselves. Both are built on not questioning the dogma. So all you really need to do is get them started figuring out what kind of feminist/christian they are instead.

Get them to look at the claims vs what they've done historically. Get them to look at how they treat 'non-believers' when they are supposed to be practicing peace, love, and respect for other's opinions. Get them to decide how they should treat the ones of their flock who are doing things that go against the teachings yet have widespread social support.

You can't convert a christian/feminist. You can only lay the seed of self-analysis - then wait.

chavelah · 2011-12-30T15:05:39+00:00

Maybe this is a function of age (I am in my mid-thirties and most of my peers have had somebody close to them get reamed by the Family Court system at ths point), but I have not had a lot of trouble finding common ground with other socially liberal women, even if they are not consciouly sympathetic to the MRM. Basically anybody with a heart and a brain is sympathetic to MR issues when they're presented piecemeal. So rather that talking about who's a feminist and who's not, I try to talk about specifics when I want to talk politics/ social issues with my IRL friends.

A_Nihilist · 2011-12-30T21:55:34+00:00

The connection to the word is almost religious. Take Girlwriteswhat's video posted to I believe /r/videos the other day. Most of the comments are something along the lines of "I agreed with everything she said, but then she brought up feminism". It's like counting off all the atrocities Christians have committed through history; as long as there is no attribution, Christians will agree that these were horrible acts. But the second you name Christianity as the culprit, they jump to the defensive.

2011-12-30T22:20:12+00:00

I'm sure their version of feminism is, what they believe, for equality. But hopefully if they are good friends, give them time and let them become interested in your side on their own, maybe it will start with curiosity to see how horrible you've become, and lead to some understanding somewhere down the line.

Feminism is just a label. That's the thing that sucks about labels. I'm sure there are many things you agree on without a label needing to be attached to it.

Pelican_bishop · 2011-12-31T22:07:46+00:00

hey! I consider myself a feminist, but my definition seems to differ greatly from popular opinion of what feminism is. basically I realize that just being female puts ideas about me in peoples minds. I would prefer my sex to be a neutral fact, and to be judged on my merit. I would love to have a dialoge about it with you any time. it is hard to find people who both want to talk about it and don't feel victimized one way or another.

2011-12-30T13:36:25+00:00

Show them how feminism is covering up abuse.

KMFCM · 2011-12-30T22:14:09+00:00

You need to weed out the "friends" who cannot accept your views.

If these people cannot deal with what you believe, they're not real friends. You don't need them.

Lopretni · 2011-12-30T22:47:56+00:00

I have yet to get into this kind of conversation, given I live in Texas and women are more than happy to revert to the 50s for the sake of Jesus, but if I do I plan to emphasize equal rights more than men's rights.

I_am_the_Walrus · 2011-12-31T04:39:38+00:00

Feminism - the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.

So, if you are against feminism, by definition you are against the advocacy for women's rights. While this doesn't necessitate that you are against women's rights, you're still basically saying that we should just shut up and never ask for anything again (which could be argued is, actually, against women's rights, since we have the right to ask for equal rights).

Beyond that, I imagine that everyone's perception of feminism has a lot to do with where you are and who you have the tendency to hang around. There are shitty women, and there are shitty men, and they're all out there doing their thing. Most women claim feminism in some way (after all most people have an interest in protecting their gender), but just because some of those women also happen to be misandrists doesn't mean that that is what the movement is about. Much like how just because some men are misogynists doesn't mean that all men are.

What I, personally, would like people to realize is that there's overlap between rights movements. Feminism isn't supposed to preclude men's rights, likewise I don't anticipate that men's rights precludes women's, and there in the middle is also humanitarianism. When any one group is discriminated against, it just hurts everyone in the end.

cleopas8010 · 2011-12-30T14:57:05+00:00

I am a male feminist or equalist but also a MRM. I believe the problem is women have expected men to be protector and provider for so long, and expected men not to cry to be strong that some men are fed up with these restrictive gender roles. The MRM is helping men break through of their restrictive gender roles.

2011-12-30T14:15:33+00:00

Feminism was a valid and important movement in the past. Like anything that exists past its usefulness, it has become an evil. I have had the privledge to work with true trail-blazing women who suffered abuses while making their presence in my field now normal. They are aghast at what feminism has become. They clearly see the effects it has had on their sons, and how it has taken their grandchildren out of their lives.

TL;DR: Feminism has become what it once opposed. (Maybe worse)

fondueguy · 2011-12-30T17:13:53+00:00

People only have unilateral power over their believes, they don't have unilateral power over a movement and they should to let go if that movement goes against their beliefs.

memymineown · 2011-12-30T17:49:40+00:00

You need to get friends who will stick by you without having to agree with everything you say.

One of my best friends in undergrad was a stone cold republican. As right wing as you can get. We are still friends.

2011-12-30T19:01:57+00:00

I'd try to phrase it as not being anti-feminism, but rather pro-men's rights. The two are not mutually exclusive (at least not with respect to those promoting equality), though many feminists seem to think they are, or think that feminism will take care of men's problems too (leading to believing that MRAs are not necessary).

Being a woman in the men's rights movement, you will take a lot of shit. This happens in both movements due to there being radicals in both. You have to take the good with the bad though. You being a woman, your voice will be heard before mine and your credibility seen as greater. You just might have to put a face to your words.

The way I deal with it is to just forget about those that I've encountered that refuse to listen to my side of things. I've been blocked on Facebook and attacked verbally several times. It's even gotten to the point of constant harassment in some cases, though I've tried to be kind in every case and have never insulted the women I was talking to.

Losing a couple friends over something they're not willing to budge on is something that will happen. It happens with everything. Every relationship is a compromise and those that can't lose their relationships. Personally, though this is because I'm a man, I think that if any woman or man wants to vilify me, they can get out of my life. I'm not going to shed any tears over it.

stemgang · 2011-12-30T22:55:47+00:00

They're brainwashed to believe that non-feminists hate women.

Instead of inquiring about the hatefulness of their own ideology, they are wondering why you have decided to hate them.

Most sheeple cannot be awakened.

johntheother · 2011-12-31T03:06:26+00:00

There is a degree of complicity in silent agreement with normal, mainstream ( feminist ) ideology. People pretend outrage and shock at the view of the MRM - but this is a sham. The personal rejection people will heap on a "friend" for non-conformity with feminism reflects (imo) their own recognition of complicity with an unethical ideology.

Azaryah · 2011-12-31T04:09:59+00:00

I'm happy that there are women who realize that feminism is not about equality

JeremiahMRA · 2011-12-30T11:16:24+00:00

You are going to find very few women who give a shit. Men are far more likely to give a shit, but even then there are a lot of men who really don't. Overall, though, men are more likely to care more about injustice.

I'd suggest venturing into the manosphere where there are a few (very few) women who do give a shit: A Voice for Men is a good starting point. Just don't attention whore. Feminine manipulations are not really welcome in such venues.

Honestly, don't waste your time on women, especially feminists. Women (generally) only care about issues when they directly affect them (or possibly their close relatives and friends). Focus on convincing men. As a woman, you can have a far more significant affect on men regarding these issues, and the truth is that men are far more willing to listen and DO something about it than women are.

ghebert001 · 2011-12-31T02:20:37+00:00

I don't broadcast my being an mra or my being against feminism. When in public it's best to keep unpopular opinions to yourself...especially controversial ones

2011-12-31T07:55:01+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	On women in the MRM -
Author	doch_doch
Upvotes	21
Comments	179
Date	December 30, 2011 10:34 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/nw52c/on_women_in_the_mrm/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/on-women-in-the-mrm.1029854 https://theredarchive.com/post/1029854

Comments

You will lose friends over this.