I have seen a lot of "Feminists" sharing this article recently, supposedly proving that gender differences in spatial reasoning are the result of so called "socialization", therefore the gender disparity in STEM fields is the result of "Sexism". Any counterpoint disproving this argument?

Asatmaya · 2023-10-19T15:48:05+00:00

It doesn't "prove" anything, it suggests that playing with toys like blocks and tiles improves spatial reasoning skills, which influence math and science ability.

There is some stuff in there about parents using "spatial language" with sons more than daughters, but ends with suggesting that parents and teachers encourage both girls and boys in behaviors which tend to improve these skills.

lumpynose · 2023-10-19T16:01:34+00:00

My standard argument: before I retired I wore two hats, server system administrator and software developer. In the world of software development is this thing called Free and Open Source Software (FOSS). The majority of it is not applications but stuff you'd use to create applications. It's all freely available from github, sourceforge, and other sites like that. The tools, compilers, IDEs, etc. for creating it are all free. Finding any women creating FOSS is rare. Similarly, I have a little home server running Debian Linux; all of the volunteers who support it and all of the packages that are available for it are men. Or, if you use forums for things like IOT, home networking, or electronics, all of the participants are men (they mention their wives for example).

Whether or not their absence from these things has anything to do with spatial reasoning, I have no idea. But at minimum it's self selecting; their choice.

The two people who published the paper were women, as was the author of the article. The field of psychology is clearly dominated by women. And regardless of that it's a field that has historically believed that everything is learned.

Smooth_Ad_7227 · 2023-10-19T17:11:12+00:00

Are men better than women in something? We need to correct this anomaly.

heeroena · 2023-10-19T15:54:40+00:00

it doesn't prove or disprove anything

walterwallcarpet · 2023-10-19T16:51:25+00:00

At seven weeks gestation, the SRY-gene on the Y-chromosome makes baby boys develop testicles. The resulting testosterone levels (4x greater than childhood) have massive effect on the developing prosencephalon, and lead to male brain patterning. Gender differences in spatial reasoning are due to the effects of testosterone on the developing male brain in the womb, where there is precious little 'socialisation'. https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12416943-800-review-gender-on-the-brain-review-of-brainsex-the-real-difference-between-men-and-women-by-anne-moir-and-david-jessel/

Of course, biologically determined male advantage (there are plenty of others) isn't helpful to the cause of feminism, or the 'women can do anything' narrative. So - they've conveniently invented the term 'neurosexism', so that we can't talk about it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusions_of_Gender

Uncle_Touchy1987 · 2023-10-19T17:26:48+00:00

Yeah, it’s written by a feminist. Case closed.

RandHomman · 2023-10-19T19:13:47+00:00

It always amazes me how men "are raised" in a certain way that advantages them blablabla... there's a woman in the bigger part of all families, women make up most of both boys and girls school education yet boys advantages always seems to be about how they are raised compared to girls...

RoryTate · 2023-10-19T17:18:15+00:00

It has been long established that men (on average as a group) are approximately one standard deviation better at tasks involving spatial rotation. Here is a paper that references that body of research. This is an extract from the introduction:

There is a wide range of evidence for gender differences in behavioral profiles as well as in brain structure and function (Sacher et al., 2013; Ruigrok et al., 2014; Gur and Gur, 2017). Behaviorally, males are shown to perform superiorly in some domains including motor and visuospatial processing, whereas females have an advantage in terms of verbal skills and emotional memory.

The findings have been reproduced across cultures, education levels, and every social variable has been ruled out as a source for this dimorphism between the sexes. Furthermore, a technique known as fMRI (functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging) has demonstrated clear differences in size, function, and density of the areas of the brain responsible for spatial perception and reasoning between the sexes. I have often seen these differences summarized and described as follows: men use a process called "dead reckoning", while our counterparts use a process called "beaconing".

Here are the rigourous definitions for these processes:

Beaconing is a process in which the distance between a visual landmark and current position is reduced in order to return to a location. In contrast, dead reckoning is a process in which vestibular, kinesthetic and/or optic flow cues are utilized to update speed of movement, elapsed time of movement, and direction of movement to return to a location.

Here's a good study showing how men use "geometric information" to navigate, which differentiates between the sexes.

Another study also provides strong evidence that the differences in ability to rotate objects is measurable and significant even in 6- to 13-month-old infants, which directly contradicts the conclusions asserted by this news article. And I must point out the editorial is only reporting on a meta-analysis (the study being a meta-analysis means that it contains no original research, which unfortunately leaves it prone to just being propaganda in practice).

lumpynose · 2023-10-19T16:05:34+00:00

In addition to my above response, here are some links for evolutionary psychology. I haven't read the ones that can be edited by anyone; one that had been on my list was "fixed" by feminists so I removed it (I think it was rationalwiki).

Delicious-Agency-824 · 2023-10-19T18:27:50+00:00

Even if it's due to socialization so what?

The sex with money offers from sugar daddies are less likely to work her ass of studying science.

ralphswanson · 2023-10-20T04:36:05+00:00

This is an example of the feminist mantra:

Men and women are EXACTLY the same in every way, except that woman are better.
Therefore anytime men outperform women, that is PROOF that women are victims of the Patriarchy and need more privileges
Please don't notice when women outperform men, but when they do is is proof that are so superior that they can outshine despite the Patriarchy. So women should be granted even more privilege to exploit their superiority.

Questioning this mantra is 'misogyny'. However, feminists themselves ignore it when it is convenient. For example, when feminists extoll the need for female governors and CEOs because women 'think differently' and are 'more collaborative'.

mrkpxx · 2023-10-19T16:44:53+00:00

There are many other differences that distinguish men from women: Their different interests are crucial.

SparkleCharm · 2023-10-19T17:03:07+00:00

1) If we assume that their initial argument that the variations in spatial reasoning skill stem from socialization is valid, it does not logically imply that the gender gap in STEM fields is a result of intentional gender discrimination. There are many things that could explain this: differences in career choices, personal interests, and societal expectations. For example, it is well-documented that women tend to gravitate towards fields that involve more social interaction and nurturing, such as healthcare, education, and social sciences. On the other hand, men often show a preference for fields that emphasize technical skills, problem-solving, and innovation, such as engineering, computer science, and physics.

These differing career choices could partially explain the gender gap in STEM fields. It is important to note that these choices are not solely driven by external pressures or societal expectations, but can also be influenced by personal interests and aptitudes. If women, on average, have a relatively lower interest in or aptitude for STEM subjects compared to men, it would naturally result in a lesser representation in these fields.

2) There is no conclusive evidence to validate the claim that there is no biological difference in spatial ability between men and women. While there are some findings for both genders, it is important to note that the brain remains inadequately researched and not fully understood from a scientific perspective.

critical_Bat · 2023-10-19T17:11:31+00:00

Even if men and women were the same by nature (I seriously doubt that) and developed differently through history only due to socialization (again I very much doubt that) does that justify action or a political movement today? Can ideologues correctly identify what needs to be done to “equalize” the differences?

r1otgurl · 2023-10-19T21:31:56+00:00

I am understanding less and less of what feminists are actually fighting for.

Destruction of the family unit, I'll scream it from the roof tops. It's not until every child is fatherless, with 2 moms, one's MTF, ones non binary, the kid identifies as a pancake, and men now have breasts while women grow a penis, that these people will be happy.

And they're getting what they want, that's the scary part.

PlasticLie4218 · 2023-10-20T05:40:28+00:00

Feminists just want everything and the downfall of all men will only satisfy them.🤷‍♂️

HanEyeAm · 2023-10-19T19:01:46+00:00

At least in the abstract (below), the authors do not claim that socialization has an effect. They also don't claim that biology has no effect. Maybe they say that in the article.

For everybody posting single articles to refute the findings, consider that this is a meta-analysis which takes all studies into account. Those individual studies may have been included in the meta-analysis to begin with. If you are citing a specific study, explain why that one in particular challenges the findings.

Citation

Lauer, J. E., Yhang, E., & Lourenco, S. F. (2019). The development of gender differences in spatial reasoning: A meta-analytic review. Psychological Bulletin, 145(6), 537–565. https://doi.org/10.1037/bul0000191

Abstract

Gender differences in spatial aptitude are well established by adulthood, particularly when measured by tasks that require the mental rotation of objects (Linn & Petersen, 1985; Voyer, Voyer, & Bryden, 1995). Although the male advantage in mental rotation performance represents one of the most robust gender differences in adult cognition, the developmental trajectory of this male advantage remains a topic of considerable debate. To address this debate, we meta-analyzed 303 effect sizes pertaining to gender differences in mental rotation performance among 30,613 children and adolescents. We found significant developmental change in the magnitude of the gender difference: A small male advantage in mental rotation performance first emerged during childhood and then subsequently increased with age, reaching a moderate effect size during adolescence. Procedural factors, including task and stimulus characteristics, also accounted for variability in reported gender differences, even when controlling for the effect of age. These results demonstrate that both age and procedural characteristics moderate the magnitude of the gender difference in mental rotation throughout development. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2019 APA, all rights reserved)

Pablo_the_cat · 2023-10-19T19:55:15+00:00

Spatial reasoning is the ability to think about and manipulate objects in three dimensions. Spatial reasoning skills are an essential part of art, physical education, math and science.

I don't think it's the only aspect when it comes to why men prefer the stem beyond women..

Didn't Jordan Peterson mention something about women prefering jobs that revolved around people and men preferred jobs that revolved around objects?

I personally doubt every "scientific" article made today because it's gate-kept by the insane far-leftoids. In fact women have been pouring into science not because they're interested in reason and logic but because they can then use that tool to manipulate society, men specifically.

DoctorStorm · 2023-10-19T21:51:57+00:00

People love to watch the pond when the fish are being fed.

Nothing to see here. Move along.

cheboludo2 · 2023-10-20T01:52:26+00:00

I have enough spatial reasoning to see that to the two whiz kids shoved to the sides in that photo are framing the spatially-retarded kid in the middle who appears to be having difficulty stacking blocks..... on a press release for a dubious 'meta-study' saying there's no difference.

EricPhartman · 2023-10-20T02:05:12+00:00

They're never going to stop until we have nothing left. We'll all be fodder for the feminist global revolution

benjypersits · 2023-10-20T03:32:48+00:00

If women want studies that say they are better at certain things to be valid, they need to acknowledge the same for men.

another-cosplaytriot · 2023-10-20T07:49:45+00:00

The premise of this assertion ignores the existing gender disparity in STEM fields where women are already dominant such as medicine and biology. That's how they get you, get sucked into arguing the irrelevant details about a straw man assertion.

If it's sexism because there are less women in engineering, the same logic holds that it's sexism that's keeping men out of medicine. Neither assertion is particularly compelling.

springy · 2023-10-20T08:51:09+00:00

So, all these woman who are influencers or on onlyfans (or both) really wanted to be petrochemical engineers, but "socialization" held them back?

GalileosTele · 2023-10-20T13:43:25+00:00

This is a false premise. women are actually the majority in STEM. When people try to show otherwise they have to use the vagueness of what counts as a STEM field to excluded all the STEM fields with lots of women (eg biology). So of course if you excluded the bulk of the women, then you are left with few women… shocker!

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