Why Don't Men Support Each Other More?

gratis_eekhoorn · 2023-11-27T05:52:37+00:00

Most men care about female approval much more than they care about the wellbeing of their fellow men, as long as that doesn't change male advocacy won't make any real progress.

SeaAdmiral · 2023-11-27T05:28:30+00:00

At risk of going into biological determinism and uncharted science, women tend to have a much, much stronger in group bias, often part of the women are wonderful effect.

While the exact reasons are unknown it's possible that it could have helped them during formation of social contracts - collective negotiation of reproductive rights. Do note modern humans still operate on ancient instincts - the formation of modern society was lightning quick on an evolutionary scale.

Men, on the other hand, had a greater historical incentive to compete with one another as the dynamic largely is and was women being more restrictive with mate selection due to the greater required investment biologically in carrying a child (especially so for mammals, and humans in particular). Note this doesn't mean men hate each other, simply that forming a strong in group bias on the basis of male sex was not reproductively beneficial.

Now, as sapient individuals we can choose to operate against our instincts, but this only works on an individual level unless a group culture is formed. Unfortunately, men's spaces have been systematically dismantled, leaving little room for such cultures to grow.

Medical-Focus705 · 2023-11-27T09:51:16+00:00

Men don't have a sex based ingroup bias, in contrast to woman. Look up the "woman are wonderful" effect to find out more.

No-Relationship-9376 · 2023-11-27T07:13:04+00:00

I’d say the mere fact that we can’t address this without bringing up women is one of the biggest factors of why this is.

SchalaZeal01 · 2023-11-27T06:41:05+00:00

I'd say its due to the propaganda that men can't have issues besides not being able to oppress women more. This propaganda has been fed to all of us since birth for anyone born post-1980. It's supported by the establishment, mainstream media and education system.

It heavily predates wokeism. You might think quotas for quotas sake is going too far, but the 'fact' that "women have it worse" is judged as true by all without even verifying anything about it. And the 'men have no issue that affect them on the gender axis' argument is also heavily endorsed because of the same propaganda, not saying that women have issues, but that gender = women.

Enzi42 · 2023-11-27T13:30:19+00:00

I think there are a number of reasons, each of them a complex and difficult problem to solve.

The first (and frankly the most basic in my opinion), is the fact that human males do not have the same in group bias towards each other that human females do. In fact, I'd argue the opposite; men have an inherent bias against other men, an apathy and even antipathy that discourages us from caring about each other as a unit.

Something I tell people who are first starting down the path of advocacy for men's issues (men who want better for our gender, women who wish to change things for the sake of the men in their lives) is that they need to be prepared for a huge backlash from the very men they're trying to help.

Sometimes men are unresponsive to good natured attempts to help us and other times we fly into a rage at the very idea of helping men as a whole---and a number of negative reactions in between those extremes. It's because we often don't see those other men as "brothers" but as "others". Actually, now that I think about it, Brothers, not Others would be a good slogan to combat internalized misandry.

But anyway to continue my point, this is firmly rooted in biology. I think that men are "programmed" to prioritize women and see other men as expendable, potential competitors, or simply "background".

However I do not see this line of thinking as depressing fatalism. It is a reality we need to accept so that we can move forward towards solving it; in order to rectify a problem, one must know its nature.

We humans are likewise programmed to be racist and bigoted due to an inherent distrust in that which looks different or foreign to what we are used to.

But that is no excuse for bigotry and if you used that excuse in today's world, you would be laughed at and and looked at with disgust. I believe that with enough conscious effort and societal restructuring, men can overcome this lack of care for other men and turn it into something at least somewhat approaching solidarity.

The second reason so many men do not care about each other is that our culture(s) have indoctrinated us into this attitude. This is deeply related to my above statement about biologically based midandry since I believe that nature becomes nurture---i.e. we went from instinct-driven animals to a sapient species, but many of our base instincts linger as the foundations of our behaviors, our belief systems, our ideologies and our ways of shaping the world.

Our mythologies from ancient tales of larger-than-life heroes to gritty action stars often focus on those protagonists slaughtering enough fellow men to drown the world in blood. That changes how we look at other men even if we don't know it.

We don't see members of our own kind butchering each other, we see one lone chosen one who is better and more worthy of life cutting through worthless chaff.

Now, I'm not speaking against ancient myths or modern action books and movies or other media. I'm just making the point that these timeless portrayals have a certain affect on things just as much, if not more, then the negative portrayals of women in that same ancient line of fiction.

I will admit freely that those stories and their modern day successors are reflections of history and current reality in which men and even boys have risen to absolutely incredible heights of heroism by taking out other male humans who would threaten that which is precious to them.

Again I do not want to step on those incredible deeds, I think they should be celebrated. But I just want to ensure that when we consume these stories, we also consider what the overall impact is.

Finally I'll get to what I consider to be the least impactful reason behind men's lack of care for each other (and I promise to explain why it is least of these, despite being so widespread).

There exists purposeful and calculated pushback against men coming together to speak about our issues and develop a sense of gender solidarity. It's funny because years ago I believed this was a conspiracy theory but I've seen it with my own eyes.

Sometimes it is institutional, such as pressure to include women in formerly all male groups and clubs. I can accept that when those areas are paths to wealth, power, etc and women being excluded would negatively impact them.

But there are many other instances that are inexcusable, when the only justifications for forced mixing is essentially "those places would become hotbeds of misogny if we aren't careful, so we need girls/women there as 'canaries in the coal mines' to prevent a disaster."

Other times the intentional breaking of male solidarity is on an individual level, but far more manipulative than any heavy handed institution.

How many times have you had your gender insulted and gotten offended, only for the person in question to attempt to manipulate you by appealing to that sense of "special man amongst the worthless trash" that I spoke of earlier?

"If it doesn't apply to you, then why are you upset? You're one of the good ones!" or "If you're that upset about it, you must be one of the bad ones".

Or if a friend or even relative of yours is accused of something horrible, you are expected to stand against him regardless of your years of friendship and good times. If you attempt to stand by him, your act of solidarity is demonized and deemed evil.

I've even heard this on the most intimate of levels, such as raising children. In fact, the example that made me realize the intentional undermining of male solidarity wasn't just a conspiracy theory was the following: years ago, a person commented on a reddit post where they explained they were intentionally trying to make their son bond less with other boys to avoid him becoming part of the "boy's clubs" that keep women out of things.

And speaking of that, let's loop back around to the institutional destruction of male solidarity, but on a paradoxically individual level.

How many op-eds and even news pieces have decried the idea of men coming together and simply caring about each other based on gender alone?

I actually believe someone had the brass coated audacity and malevolence to call it "Himpathy" and mock it while simultaneously using as some indication of men being immoral.

There are many other examples but I think I've made my point. Now I'll explain why I think that this intentional destruction of male bonding is the most inconsequential of them all.

The "people" (and I use the term loosely) who want to intentionally make men separate and divided are only working with what's already there. They are a criminal who has stepped into an open window so they can rob the house. They can do their damage because men are so divided already that their tactics are almost effortlessly effective.

If we could overcome the deeply ingrained antipathy towards each other, then those who try to manipulate men into fighting for their causes would find it harder and would have to resort to more aggressive measures, which in itself would destroy their cause completely.

So the real battle is against the biological and social factors that keep us at each other's throats. I know it won't be easy. Internalized misandry and male disposability is so deeply embedded in us that I've seen it in the most ardently MRA spaces. But I think if we can push racism into a dark corner, then we can do at least a fraction of that same damage to this particular shortcoming of ours.

Once that is done, I think a much stronger male advocacy movement can be born.

hshsgdve · 2023-11-27T06:03:08+00:00

Simps.

Women starve them for crumbs of romantic affection, so they’ll do literally anything for it, including throwing other men under the bus.

Avrangor · 2023-11-27T13:06:39+00:00

I don’t think this is the case and this is coming from my years of experience in support spaces.

I’ve seen so many female victims of rape be dismissed by age old victim blaming tactics such as “what was she wearing?” or just general ignorance. I’ve seen women call each other sluts and be against abortion as well.

On another hand I’ve also seen men call male victims “lucky” or say “Why didn’t he push her off” or “Erection means consent”. I’ve heard men say that “men don’t cry” as well.

But the thing is, both of these aren’t gender specific. I’ve also seen men tear down women and women tear down men in very similar ways as well. Where the “men don’t support men” stereotype comes from in my opinion is that when it comes to trauma support women won’t be generalized as much as men. When men are shitty it is men as a whole and every other instance supports that claim while if a woman is being shitty it’s just a single woman every time.

Also men don’t get as much support from both genders, so while women most likely support each other more than men do support each other men also most likely support women more than women support men. Or at least that’s the general consensus I’ve seen being in these spaces.

AlecMaiz0 · 2023-11-27T15:47:56+00:00

One reason is that men internalize the same messages that cause women to hate, distrust, and view strange men as untrustworthy and dangerous. Feminists love talking about internalized misogyny and how it’s men who have all the positions of power. Yet, most people, both men and women, spend their most formative years primarily under the influence of women. If from a young age, one is taught to view men with suspicion and distrust, it is easy to understand how many men might unconsciously internalize these attitudes and could lead to a mindset where they do not see other men as their peers.

MonkeyCartridge · 2023-11-27T19:00:12+00:00

Slight tangent, and I'll do another post more directly related to men supporting men. But I wanted to make a comment about addressing men's issues in general.

I don't mean to compare issues between groups. Or I try to avoid it. But there's one issue in men's activism that is similar to black men's activism.

That is, women's activism has a couple of distinct advantages. The stereotype of women is that they are weak, passive, and complacent. But this sets them up for good activism, because the mere act of aggressively protesting, asserting ones self, and standing up for other women, all demonstrate the exact point they are trying to prove.

Plus you have the added bonus of having a passive role to fall back on when you need a breather. Women are assumed to be passive, but also not especially judged for doing so.

But when the stereotype is that you are aggressive, and that you must be assertive or you don't qualify as a full person there's no good way to assertively or aggressive protest this, because you are either fitting the stereotype, or you are proving your pacifism but making yourself "unworthy of being heard" in the process.

That is, you can shout at someone for saying you're too quiet, but you can't shout at someone for saying you're too loud.

So if you're trying to prove you can be quiet, nobody will notice. The mere act of protesting your role makes you invisible. A downgrade. Not worth considering. "The decline of men."

publicdefecation · 2023-11-27T16:53:53+00:00

Men supporting each other sometimes becomes a "problematic male dominated space"

NullableThought · 2023-11-27T17:25:34+00:00

I think men support each other more than women tbh

I am a trans man (35) who passes for a young guy (18-25). I feel way more support and looked after as a "young" man than I did when I was presenting as a young woman. I especially feel this way from older people. As a young man, men older than me generally treat me as a little brother, nephew, son, their younger self, someone to look after and mentor. Older women either saw me as competition or a weirdo.

Even guys my age and younger seem a lot more welcoming and less judgemental than the women my age when I presented as a woman.

I am also naturally very masculine, so as a woman I was gender non-conforming but as a man I am gender conforming. That might make more of a difference than actual gender.

Sakebigoe · 2023-11-27T22:42:49+00:00

I would argue men supported eachother more in the past and still do to some extent in small specific communities, so the evolutionary psychology explanation kinda fall short for me. Unfortunately those communities are becoming more rare as time goes on, one such community is the military. The suicide rate for veterans is shockingly high and I can guarantee it would be even higher if veterans didn't have the close friendships they forned while in service. Military service is still a majority male field, and until fairly recently combat arms units were exclusively male. Exclusively male groups are kinda necessary for men to form those lifelong friendships that will actually support you when times get tough, at least thats my experience.

hotdogbalancing · 2023-11-27T19:52:35+00:00

Men do not view themselves as a social class.

The reasons for that are varied, but if you ask a man to describe himself, it's very likely that "man" won't even be one of the top 10 things he lists.

AdventurousHand7366 · 2024-09-08T14:30:03+00:00

It is not coincidental that men are second class citizens in our society. Men back up women and women back up women, but men do not back up other men and struggling men are pretty much invisible to women.

danknietzman · 2023-11-27T13:11:34+00:00

Men desire women because they will give them the affection and love they never had because of toxic masculinity and feminism bias against them from birth till death. On the other hand, women have healthy relationships between each other, and they practice love at its fullest without any risk to look (UNMANLY) or called a creep and predator by society, so they get over it.

MonkeyCartridge · 2023-11-27T19:50:35+00:00

So getting men to work together on our issues is frustrating because it's kinda like trying to ride the buggy into town to buy a horse to pull it.

Men are expected to be fiercely independent, and often must view each other as competitors. But this means we don't engage nearly as much socially. It doesn't help that we have trouble seeing our own intrinsic value as human beings, rather than a pokemon card of stats and abilities. I feel like this does a lot to make simply enjoying others' company feel tedious.

I mean let's be real. For a lot of guys lately, they would only go out and socialize for the purpose of finding dates. Perhaps I'm just speaking for myself. I love lots of alone time, and don't have a strong "need" to interact with people.

But it seems to me like men's desire to socialize ebbs and flows with availability. During the lockdowns, most of the women I knew went nuts from cabin fever. Most of the guys turned into hermits numb to the sensation of emotional starvation.

But you know what doesn't seem to ebb and flow as much? Libido. Though I would argue a lot of social starvation funnels itself into libido. Kinda like when you are dehydrated or tired and it makes you hungry instead of something useful like thirsty or sleepy.

So once things opened back up, there were a lot of guys only leaving the house to meet girls. Not reconnect with each other. Like there's a stereotype that "men only ever did great things to impress women.", which is a horrible worldview, but I think its sitting in the mindset of a lot of depressed and socially-isolated guys.

I might write my own post about this, and some examples to encourage guys to just value each other. I want to try group therapy. My brother says it's been a perfect example of this.

Or I would totally recommend watching Ted Lasso. Lots of different kinds of guys and personal connections between them. Lots of discussion of men's mental health.

Or I always recommend guys watch Avatar: The Last Airbender. Zuko's story is crazy relatable to how men feel like the only thing that drives them is a singular utilitarian purpose, and have trouble finding other ways to value our lives.

I think what we could really use are more Irohs and Ted Lassos to help us connect with one another.

Another tip that might seem and feel odd at first. I'm almost entirely straight, but try to live as an "aspiring bisexual". I try to get guy crushes, see guys as cute, and try to emphasize some of these things even if it isn't actually applicable to my dating life.

It takes a bit to make it click. While you can't turn someone gay into someone straight or vice versa, I think you can make most people somewhat bi, even if slight.

But if you can see certain men as romantically desirable, You're able to take some of "inherent value" views towards women and use them to see the enherent value of men. Especially if you focus on cuteness rather than #bodygoals.

A lot of our issues is that we have so much trouble connecting with one another and really feeling it. And it's made worse by the fact that men are viewed as being less "worth meeting." But if we can build that connection, great things are possible.

But even talking about it with each other helps. They actually showed that, while men's progesterone levels are lower around other men than women, it was actually shown to shoot up simply by discussing our need to connect with one another.

Alpha0rgaxm · 2023-11-27T14:55:11+00:00

I think it’s because there aren’t as many spaces for men as there are for women

onlinethrowaway2020 · 2023-11-27T22:50:18+00:00

Because of the dearth of genuine support groups for men/boys like this sub in society :(

tzaanthor · 2023-11-28T07:31:18+00:00

So women don't actually support each other as much as they say they do BUT

They don't? I thought in group bias for women was high.

DeeLowZee · 2023-11-29T01:34:10+00:00

Men support each other by being truthful and not blowing smoke up each others' backsides. Women straight up lie to each other and give horrible advice. A guy may not tell you what you want to hear, but they usually tell you what you need to hear. That's real support.

Title	Why Don't Men Support Each Other More?
Author	Geoffrey_Tanner
Upvotes	70
Comments	55
Date	November 26, 2023 11:09 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/184nv6x/why_dont_men_support_each_other_more/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/why-dont-men-support-each-other-more.1239442 https://theredarchive.com/post/1239442

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