Laughed because I know this would never happen to me (x-post from /r/funny)

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[–]frogma 7 points8 points9 points 14 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

I like the post because it's true, regardless of whether or not OP's trying to brag about something.

If you haven't made a move within 4 dates you're a dumbass, plain and simple. The girl wouldn't waste 4 dates with you if she didn't like you at least a little bit, which means you could've and should've kissed her before then (if you're even semi-good at what you do, it should've been on the first date. The sex should've been then too). Waiting 4 dates suggests either that the girl's trying to hold you back (which means you're just taking value from her and you're outcome-dependent, so you guys won't last long even if she ends up "accepting" you), or that you simply haven't tried to make a move yet, in which case it's like "Dude, before you know it you're gonna be on your 20th date with this girl and finally make a move, and it'll be awkward as shit," and that's assuming she even stays with you that long.

[–]notlurkinganymoar 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]frogma[M] 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

We've gone over this a lot, and the general consensus seems to be that it's up to the mods' discretion (on whether we remove posts or not). A lot of people don't like "shitty" posts, but that's subjective. The way it was before, we wouldn't remove anything at all unless it was clearly trolling. The way it is now, it's really up to us to decide (and that's great, but it also means we have to deal with comments like yours that disagree). In a perfect world, I'd agree with you, but then we'd be ignoring all the upvotes coming from people who seem to have taken some value from the post.

Mainly though (and the main reason I wouldn't remove this post), a lot of guys actually don't realize that 4 dates is too long. A lot of guys (really, most guys) don't realize that even 3 or 2 dates is too long to go before making a move. Guys hear all kinds of shit like "I won't have sex before the third date" or whatever, and they take that to heart. They put so much stock into that, they don't realize when they're getting friend-zoned. Girls will say that shit just to say it, when most of the time it's meaningless.

I realize the sidebar should explain most shit to anyone in a specific situation like that, but I also realize a lot of people are just casual lurkers who won't take the time to read the sidebar. So if a "shitty" post like this gets upvoted, is that good or bad? People seem to like it overall, so just based on that alone, it's good. It's only bad when you analyze it further and realize that it's something a lot of people already know. Maybe that's bad, but it's still good to appeal to the majority. On top of that, it's mainly just a humorous post (so not exactly something that people need to argue about in the first place)- so why not just allow it and let people enjoy it (or even argue about it)?

If you look at the Top all-time posts, you'll see a ton of questionable shit. As this subreddit grows, you'll continue seeing more of that. At the same time though, a lot of it is pretty basic shit and it looks like a lot of guys need help with the basic shit, so it'd probably be in bad form to remove it.

On top of all that, I can only think of one subreddit where the mods use their powers constantly and can still keep the subreddit "good"- that's askscience, where any sort of anecdotes/jokes/whatever are removed. They only keep the actual facts. We can't do that here, because there aren't any actual facts when it comes to socialization. So overall the best way to run the subreddit is with a minimal amount of modding, and let the upvotes/downvotes take care of it.

Edit: Don't get me wrong though- when I saw that girl's post about "girl seduction" the other day, I would've removed it in a heartbeat just because the things she said were so obvious and it caused a few trolls to come out and basically ruin the thread. At the same time though, that post got a shit-ton of upvotes and did create some good discussion. In my book, anything that has the potential to create a good discussion should be on here (even this post, which created a good discussion just between us two). The value of a post is based on two factors: The value of the actual post, and the discussion that comes from it. On the frontpage of reddit, you always see shit get upvoted even though it's straight-up wrong. But then you look at the comments and there's 1000 comments that are all promoting a good discussion, making the post valuable (even if the original post is extremely shitty).

[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]sparklyteenvampire 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]SuperBiasedMan 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]sparklyteenvampire -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Sure it's possible, hence the "in general." But it's the exception, not the rule, and unless there were a good reason for it, I would assume something was wrong.

Remember also that it's difficult to tell when you've found one of these rare exceptions, and people can't always trust their instincts when they're recovering from AFC status. Many guys are repeating things like what you said ("it's possible for people to take it slowly even when they both like each other a lot") to themselves the whole time they're getting friendzoned. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying it's a strongly negative indication when that happens. Not a deal breaker, but a speed bump you will have to overcome, and the bump grows bigger every time you have a date with no escalation.

And no, cuddling etc. doesn't count, not the way kissing (or more) does. There are thousands of guys out there cuddling with girls right now, convinced that they're moving ever closer to sexytime, and blissfully unaware that they've already been friendzoned.

[–]SuperBiasedMan -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]sparklyteenvampire 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

You're seeing it in the wrong way. You should definitely be getting to know her, on as deep a level as possible. At the same time, you should be escalating the physical/sexual component of your interaction. You might think of it as two different kinds of escalation: sexual and social. Each happens simultaneously over the course of an encounter that includes lots of conversation and eventually leads to sex/kissing/whatever. Each type of escalation will complement the other. You're building a connection.

You cannot escalate indefinitely, at some point you would have to slow it down.

The logical endpoint of physical escalation is sex, or some form of sexual encounter. After that, you officially have a sexual relationship, and you can decide whether to move forward with that or leave it as a one-time thing.

[–]TheMackdockery 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]sparklyteenvampire 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It doesn't sound like fun because it's a deconstruction of a social interaction. What is really going on, beneath the lingo, is a fun evening where two people feel gradually closer to each other. It will definitely not be fun if the guy is obsessing over these ideas every second and acting like a machine, rather than relaxing, having fun, and building intimacy. These ideas are just guidelines for the direction of the evening--which, if it's a date, should be gradually moving toward greater intimacy, a deeper connection, and higher attraction. Isn't that the whole point of a date?

"Escalate" is simply a term we use around here. If the guy tries to "get away" with more than the girl is comfortable with, he's doing it wrong. He should be escalating her comfort level along with her attraction.

Both of you are misinterpreting the lingo and dry written style of this self-help genre. These words are ways of describing social concepts in standardized terms. I assume you didn't read the glossary link I sent him, so here it is again. I urge you both to familiarize yourselves with it, and to read the rest of the sidebar, so that you have some context for the discussion.

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It's always important not to force it, or more accurately, not to make it seem forced. If you're nervous, you may feel as though you have to force yourself to kiss her, but what matters is whether you can make the kiss feel natural and non-awkward to her, even though you may be privately freaking out.

An awkward and forced kiss is bad, because it makes you seem unconfident. But it's better to push forward, take the initiative, and go for the kiss than it is to avoid all risk of awkwardness or rejection. If you wait for the perfect moment, it will never come.

To me, four dates without even a kiss screams "nervous beta waiting until he is positive he won't be rejected." It'll seem the same way to the girl, and that's why this strategy doesn't work.

Minimize risk if you can, but you must accept some of it.

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[–]MartMillz 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You don't need it to "survive" per se, however the act of sex releases endorphins and dopamine and in turn relaxes you. Having sex regularly stabilizes your serotonin levels, which is critical to your mental health. The positive neurochemical effects makes you not depressed, less irritable, and less stressed, a.k.a. happy. Not to mention that having sex makes you feel like a loved person and desirable mate, thus raising your self confidence.

There's no point in denying yourself this satisfaction.

You think I've been brainwashed by the media, however, it is very clear to me that your conviction stems from unwillingness to think outside the box in which modern society has institutionalized you.

And just for the record, society has been vilifying sex for the past three hundred years, not dragging it down to the level of casual acceptance.

[–]kattig 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]ebenasis 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You actually hit one of the sore subjects for this here fancy subreddit. The sex subject and the material found in this subreddit on seduction deal largely with physical extrinsic motivators. It's easier to see progress by a overt physical connection(I got a kiss faster with seductions help then I did without!). It's also why seddit gets such a bad rep because of the overtly judgmental attitude(rating women on scales in every story, judging each other on performance, etc.).

With that being said and out of the way, that's the superficial seddit. Once you delve deeper you realize seddit is not just about the women, and you realize its all about flattering people, charming them, becoming charismatic if you will.

Staying on topic though, I agree completely. I can't sleep with a women without a relationship. The only time I've ever been able to cum for a women who I didn't care about was when I was piss ass drunk and I just wanted to fuck. Relationships matter and each guy/girl has different qualities. If you have to generalize, then like Bootpolish said, sex plays a large part in the starting of a relationship. We are all different though, if a woman throws herself at me on the first date then I become bored and uninterested. I like a good chase and don't mind waiting 4+ dates for things to get interesting as long as were both playing the same game.

[–]kattig 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I noticed this is a sore topic. The only reason I haven't stopped arguing already is because I kind of hope this will show people reading that it doesn't always need to come down to casual, potentially unsatisfying sex. That's an opinion though.

But yes, since it's a seduction reddit I can get why it's all about sex. Some people don't need how to get girls, because they only want sex. People who actually form a relationship and then get sex usually don't need help.

And yes, sex can be present in the beginning of a relationship. It actually played a huge part in my current relationship, but it doesn't mean we jumped into bed immediately. The whole chasing back and forth can be really interesting if done right, but some people don't seem to get that. There's no subtles hint of sex, or teasing, just sex immediately. I can understand that some people here need to master the art of sexiness, hahaha. But yeah, I don't doubt that there's guys around that AREN'T shallow and only interested in sex. They just don't seem to hang around seddit too much.

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[–]sparklyteenvampire 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

You are not a chump.

AFC is a motivational term we use in this self-help genre to represent what we're trying to move away from: a guy who doesn't know how to attract women any more than the mythical "average Joe". An AFC is the sort of person who doesn't maintain high expectations, allows himself to be a doormat, lacks confidence, and allows his social life to proceed more or less by chance.

I like the part of PUA that's about developing your social skills with EVERYONE. It's when they start targeting us that they've lost me.

Developing your social skills with everyone is the heart of PUA. But why should it bother you if we start focusing on our success with women? I don't see anything offensive about that.

I implore you both to read the sidebar and learn more about this self-help genre. You are in a subreddit devoted entirely to it, and designed for people with intermediate/advanced knowledge in it. Until you understand the context, you should avoid forming opinions about anything in here, because your first impression is likely to miss the point and confuse the discussion.

And aren't they trying to get women like me to go out with them?

Frankly, no. Much of what you've said--especially the apparent rule about waiting 6 dates before sexual contact--makes it sound like you have a chip on your shoulder, and the need to make a guy jump through hoops for you. I would never date a girl who used arbitrary rules like that, who saw me as some sort of enemy she had to guard her intimacy from. You also seem to treat sex as a reward for him rather than something you both enjoy.

You give excellent head, that's great. But great head is really not that hard to get, and definitely not enough to keep my interest on its own. What else are you bringing to the table? I'm not talking only about sex, I'm asking why a guy should bother to go through six dates with you, with or without the head. What are you offering, other than the not-so-special possibility of a BJ? Why should he try to impress you? You throw out all these arbitrary rules and withhold physical intimacy, and then say "do all these things and after six or so dates you'll have earned my affection," and any decent PUA would respond: "So? I can get that from anyone. Why should I try to earn your affection? Why don't you try to earn mine instead? My time is as valuable as yours."

Few high-quality guys are going to stick around for six dates, because they have other prospects and aren't interested in cutting sex out of their relationship. High-quality girls feel the same way, and that's why a guy will lose them if he waits too long to make a move. I never consider sex to be something a woman owes me, and I never get angry if she doesn't want to have it. But I enjoy sex as a healthy part of a relationship, and if it's not there, I'll wish her well and move on.

[–]SuperBiasedMan 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

AFC is a motivational term we use in this self-help genre to represent what we're trying to move away from: a guy who doesn't know how to attract women any more than the mythical "average Joe". An AFC is the sort of person who doesn't maintain high expectations, allows himself to be a doormat, lacks confidence, and allows his social life to proceed more or less by chance.

Except you're under the assumption that a guy who isn't a PUA is an AFC, where as they just might not have an interest in using the techniques.

High expectations? You bet your ass I've got them. I don't date women I don't already know I like a lot, and then I build it from there. Means less relationships, but better ones.

Doormat? I'm a 'nice guy'. So technically yeah. But don't misunderstand, it's not my last ditch effort to get laid. I'm just nice, because I think people should be nice. And it takes so little effort most of the time, but my friends appreciate it.

Lacks confidence? Yeah, ok. This I have. I don't really see myself as hot. I don't understand how I could be seen as hot. My girlfriend disagrees, and apparently others do. I don't think this is much of a problem though since I'm willing to ask a girl out rather than just assume she's uninterested.

But most importantly, my social life is supposed to proceed by chance?

Lolwut? That doesn't make any sense, it proceeds by me interacting with people and building relationships. Maybe by that you mean "he doesn't go out of his way to find women". Which would be true, but that's cause I have too high standards for that. I'm not always interested in a woman, when one does come along, I want to see what she's like as a friend first and then make my move. You probably fear being friend zoned, but I've had better relationships this way, including my current one. And I've talked to plenty of women who like being friends first.

Obviously not every woman does, but you know what? I like the women who do better, because I like it too.

So yeah, it's a little insulting and stupid that just cause I don't actively learn techniques for getting laid (or else use natural techniques) that I must be a chump.

I would never date a girl who used arbitrary rules like that,

...every guy in this thread has been talking about how he wont date a girl if nothing has happened after X number of dates. Do you not see how this is hypocritical?

But the point TheMackdockery was trying to make is that she's not comfortable having sex early in a relationship, but is entirely ok with having it later on after she knows the guy rather well. She's not a prude, or treating sex as some reward, she just wants to establish other things first and all the guys here seem to be oblivious to this idea.

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Title	Laughed because I know this would never happen to me (x-post from /r/funny)
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	307
Comments	151
Date	November 23, 2011 10:04 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/mml8l/laughed_because_i_know_this_would_never_happen_to/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/laughed-because-i-know-this-would-never-happen-to.1325159 https://theredarchive.com/post/1325159

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