Q4All: Are women made inferior by internalizing harmful societal narratives?

321PK · 2018-10-23T17:15:52+00:00

I don’t feel inferior to men. Or superior for that matter. I will say tho that for all their supposed superiority the trp, MGTOW, and MRA guys apparently, to hear them tell it, got taken by the “gynocracy” with very little effort AND they spend lots of time, money, ink, and energy on we supposedly inferior creatures that got them by the balls. That’s their narrative.

damaskrose · 2018-10-23T19:49:24+00:00

Yes, but it's not just about feeling inferior to men, a lot of women feel inferior to other women as well.

TriadFamilyTimes · 2018-10-23T23:13:07+00:00

I don't understand how this is difficult. You can be conditioned to believe untrue things. There are multiple mental illnesses that center around being conditioned to see or believe things that aren't true. And more than that, you can be conditioned to feel things even if you don't believe them. This is what neurosis is and it's a big academic topic to get into.

You're mistaking belief in inferiority for inferiority. There is no link between the two. Women don't feel inferior because they naturally are. Women feel inferior because that is the place they have been put, often through violence.

[deleted] · 2018-10-23T23:30:45+00:00

I think a lot of it has to with the age and conditions of social conditioning and how the woman was raised. Many of us from a *young age* were conditioned (just as boys) to like certain things, play with certain things, what is deems as girly, what is boyish etc. I emphasis young age because yes, while we are in 2018 things have changed more recently - So I do believe it is hard to unwire the mindset. Remember that most of us were raised by parents who went through some shit. Who saw the segregation of men and women and even they were brought up from an entirely different generation, so a lot of has to do with what was emphasized mostly in your life and in turn how that has changed your view point of you being an individual in the world.

I won't speak for everyone but amoungst my self and the women I have known, we were raised by immigrants. Immigrants who again have a different Western viewpoint of roles. Though it was not blunty stated "Your brothers are better than you" it was clear in how differently we were raised. I learned to cook, clean, watch children - all while still being a child. It was a way of life while my brothers coasted. And i am not a one off statistic. This is shared between many other women (but maybe only women coming from an immigrant background) I was taught that "men are dogs, if I need to prosper in life I must understand and know the basics of life, I must manage on my own. So I better damn make sure I am self reliant because if I have kids - it will be your burden. Men can and will walk away from you when they please" So my brothers grew up with the mindset of they are a man, if they need something they can find a women who was raised just like me, and they will be taken care of. So of course, these things linger in the back of your mind. "Men can get away with anything, I must work harder than them since they are naturally better than me"

I think once many of us millennial's in the West understand that it is almost a thing of the past in our society and now career goals/ambitions are a matter of personal life choices then we can't call sexim out. Most professional work places I know have a mix of women and men and it is the older generations that fulfill the "sterotypical" roles because that is what they grew up with. The field I am in is all men. And I have to have tough skin bc they tell it like it is - Funny enough more places are hiring women in higher position because "Women will tend to get less yelled at when asserting the companies view points"

So to sum it up. Growing up for me, it was ingrained. Ill share more if you ask. But fundamentally no. Not now. I can drive, I can go to school, I have a career - being a women didn't hold me back. How I was raised probably made me a a more reliable and better person though.

Do you think the secretly harmful message of masculinity given to men from elders, peers and society at large (fitting into their role as being a provider, etc) has made men in general more depressed or unaware of their social status? Are they angry to turn TRP bc life actually isn't as easy as society made it seem for men?

UsedAlgae · 2018-10-23T18:10:57+00:00

Yup. Look up "stereotype threat". People who are told that people in their group (gender, race, whatever) tend to perform better/worse on a specific task will actually do so.

I am struggling to rationalize how some of you are claiming that women internalize messages of inferiority while simultaneously claiming that women are not inferior.

? Women have similar potential to men in lots of areas, but they get different messages from society about their abilities. These messages affect their performance. I'm not sure what's inconsistent about that?

SincereDiscussion · 2018-10-23T17:45:35+00:00

I am reluctant to dismiss an individual person's experiences. There are lots of shitty families out there. Being subjected to abuse doesn't make you inferior when it inevitably fucks you up and damages your thought processes.

That said, I don't agree with the premises of the argument.

I don't think women are inferior
I don't think women are subjected to cultural narratives that say women are inferior (that doesn't mean that women live their lives without having their feelings hurt)
But if they were subjected to these narratives, I do think it would have an impact -- and this impact isn't evidence of inferiority.

Regarding point 2, I think it's actually the opposite. Our culture promotes narratives that turn women into entitled narcissists.

DebatePony · 2018-10-23T17:36:18+00:00

Do you agree that women receive a message of inferiority? Are women then made inferior by internalizing societal narratives in a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Some women do get this message. And they can let themselves act or behave inferior but that doesn't devalue them as a human being. They still have just as much worth as a human as anyone else on the planet.

Mentathiel · 2018-10-26T18:07:13+00:00

I think there are social phenomenons very harmful to women's development, but I think there are many that harm men. I don't know the extent of their effect or would they be equal if we somehow measured them.

When it comes to women, for example, my experience has been that we're not expected to take on as much responsibility as men. We're treated more leniently and people make excuses for us. On top of that, some countries have quotas and celebrate women's inclusion in workplaces or certain educational paths disproportionately. Even if there's no ideological backing, men are often very happy to find women, especially if they're attractive and not annoying, sharing their interests and spaces, and reward them with lots of attention. Men flaunt resources and time at us to try and make us see them as valuable suitors. Basically, we're taught that we have people to rely on and fall back on, that it's okay to make impulsive decisions because we'll still be okay because others will make up for our excesses, etc. Worst off, some of this is probably inevitable because of our species' sexual dynamics. So I think it's really hard for women to choose not to use all of these fail-safes offered to them and rely on their own strength and learn to fail and get up again.

For men, there's a lot of opposite messaging, making them isolate themselves and feel alone and afraid to be vulnerable. Partially, this is because they're punished for it either by those looking for weakness to exploit or women looking for "strong" men. The arguably excessive harshness exhibited towards men from a young age teaches them that they don't have any inherent worth and that their feelings don't matter unless they live up to everyone's expectations.

Now, it can be argued for example that a woman would be stupid not to use resources offered to her in some pursuit of equality, or that it's good that men are raised sternly because it teaches them what to expect from a society hostile to them. I'm not claiming to have all the answers on this or that these practices are somehow reversible or even not optimal. I have a feeling that we could to better by being more, but not completely, equitable. But I don't know that, it's just a hunch. This certainly doesn't seem optimal, but maybe nothing is.

poppy_blu · 2018-10-23T19:25:22+00:00

The irony here is that RP is predicated on the idea that men were fed harmful “blue pill” narratives by feminists and society that fucked up their entire masculine self worth and all of their experiences with women. Do you see how TRPs can claim this and still claim men are superior?

blackedoutfast · 2018-10-23T17:15:41+00:00

this whole idea that women receive all of these negative harmful messages of inferiority and it undermines their self-esteem and limits their choices IS IN ITSELF A HARMFUL MESSAGE THAT GETS INTERNALIZED BY WOMEN.

think about it. is society really limiting women's options? it's not the 1800s. it's not even the 1900s. it's 2018 and society is basically going nuts with giving women options and telling them positive, self-esteem-boosting messages about how women are wonderful. any little girl who shows even a minor interest or aptitude for math/science/computers gets put on the fast track to STEMville. every major company is looking for female candidates for executive positions. the baseless accusations of crazy nutjob women are treated like solid gold truth. the majority of law school students are women. and women are pursuing all of these options and opportunities being offered to them.

but because of the feminist messages being shoved into their heads, women tend to ignore all of these socieyap efforts to coddle them and give them special treatment to make up for the past.

women in the US today have more power and more freedom than any women in history. the women who live in this society are more fortunate and privileged than any women ever.

and yet, female protestors are going around in "handmaid's tale" costumes. they unironically believe that we are on the verge of becoming some kind of dystopian theocracy where women are kept as sex slaves. it's absolutely ridiculous and batshit insane. it shows a complete disconnect between internal beliefs and external reality. and that disconnect is caused by those messages that get shoved in women's heads, messages about a patriarchal society that is keeping them down.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2018-10-23T17:17:57+00:00

Yeah I think non-Jewish women Do

Tedesche · 2018-10-23T21:21:35+00:00

Do you agree that women receive a message of inferiority?

No, not these days, in Western nations. Tribeswomen in the Congo? Maybe, idk. But in America, Europe and Australia? LOL, no, not at all.

[deleted] · 2018-10-24T06:17:22+00:00

Women are inferior at a genetic level.

beachredwhine · 2018-10-23T16:46:03+00:00

Everyone should be treated equally under the law. That's what equal means. Society has gone off the deep end trying to immanentize the eschaton and unfortunately a lot of folks have internalized a victim narrative to cushion the blows to their ego of their own failures. Hence all this discussion of inferiority and claims that it's socially enforced inferiority.

It's a useless discussion that can not lead to any positive outcome. Men and women are different and will always be different hence you might as well ask if an apple is inferior to an orange. Or if the orange peel is inferior to the seeds. The people trying to figure this all out don't even realize that they are religious fanatics.

My suggestion is to avoid people who are failures and then invent excuses for their failures. It's a huge red flag. Hence simply avoid any women like that you happen to meet. Life's to short to fill your friends and significant others with excuse making failures.

[deleted] · 2018-10-23T17:18:56+00:00

Do you agree that women receive a message of inferiority? Are women then made inferior by internalizing societal narratives in a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Yes, feminism harms women.

CombatStacey · 2018-10-23T21:15:45+00:00

Do you agree that women receive a message of inferiority? Are women then made inferior by internalizing societal narratives in a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Yes it's true.

I don't feel or think I'm inferior to men. But I often make choices that I wouldn't make if I were male. And those choices affect me negatively.

abaxeron · 2018-10-23T17:16:47+00:00

Do you agree that women receive a message of inferiority?

Yes, just as men do. Let's not forget that anywhere (depending on the nation) between 50 and 99 percent of school teachers are female. Let's not pretend that they don't sprinkle their professional environment with a bit of ideological female supremacy here and there.

Are women then made inferior by internalizing societal narratives in a self-fulfilling prophecy?

I've got nothing to add to your thought. Only the extremely neurotic and weak-willed would succumb to societal narrative to this scale. And we have a bunch of examples of entire nations working pretty damn well against all the societal narratives about them.

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exit_sandman · 2018-10-24T07:28:52+00:00

Do you agree that women receive a message of inferiority? Are women then made inferior by internalizing societal narratives in a self-fulfilling prophecy?

In ultra-conservative environments maybe, but not in society at large. Unless we're considering the idea that men and women aren't the same (which expresses itself in overall pretty harmless things like women not being #1 choice for action heroes) "messages of female inferiority", but that would mean that we make the sensitivities of notoriously offended special snowflakes the linchpin of our assessments in that regard.

On second notice though, one might make the case that the modern feminist narrative of perpetual female victimhood could give rise to the notion among women that they're helpless, without agency and at the mercy of men - i.e. inferior to men.

sublimemongrel · 2018-10-23T17:36:40+00:00

Is there not any messages men receive which can lower their self-esteem and choices in life too?

Idk, i don’t believe I internalized messages about “women being inferior”. Of course my house was a house full of girls.

I’ve gotten messages regarding how I should behave professionally that differ from men but I think that’s more consistent with my temperament anyway so I don’t think I’ve been “damaged” there.

Then you have the whole “imposter syndrome” thing I keep hearing about - does that effect women more than men? Does it render the person suffering from it actually inferior or just inferior on their own internal perception?

MGTOWtoday · 2018-10-24T04:04:46+00:00

No, women are physically inferior because of neoteny. Women evolved to be basically be children with tits.

legaladvicequest · 2018-10-23T16:39:58+00:00

Men believe women are inferior and we agree. There is no 'made to be inferior' because inferiority is based on the value people place on a person's relative worth.

Title	Q4All: Are women made inferior by internalizing harmful societal narratives?
Author	Mr_Smoogs
Upvotes	2
Comments	125
Date	October 23, 2018 4:36 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/9qqod6/q4all_are_women_made_inferior_by_internalizing/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4all-are-women-made-inferior-by-internalizing.259325 https://theredarchive.com/post/259325

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