CMV: There's no real benefit that outweighs the risks of being in a modern-day long-term romantic relationship

IamTheWalkingMenu · 2017-05-06T13:49:50+00:00

I'm sorry to say it but maybe you need to take a break? Pill free period? You're not exactly coming across as a walk in the park on a sunny day. Life and the world is not exactly as bleak as you think srsly!

Maybe you're depressed? Get help. Learn some coping skills.

fiat_lux_ · 2017-05-04T21:34:25+00:00

A person (usually male, due to cultural standards) needs to approach the person they're interested in and risk public shaming, insulting etc if they're rejected;

If they reject me, it's their loss. THEIR shame.

People need to invest vast amounts of time and resources into getting to know their partner ...

People invest vast amounts of time into video games and other pleasurable pursuits.

It's extremely easy to abandon a starting, ongoing or developing relationship now a days instead of trying to fix it.

That's also a benefit. It's just one you don't see because you're coming from a position of weakness. If you are unhappy in a relationship, you can abandon it. Technically, that can be a benefit as much as it can be a risk.

The risk of cheating; cheating is glorified in a lot of media; cheating is sometimes even justified or defended by others;

You can end it with them and find someone else. If you really need to get over her, you can go on a short bender.

The risk of divorce pretty much ruining a person's life;

The risks of divorce, at least financial ones, are relatively fair. Most of the unfairness has do with ignorance of existing laws and lack of financial planning/organization.

CMV: There's no real benefit that outweighs the risks of being in a modern-day long-term romantic relationship

No one is forcing you to be in a modern-day long-term romantic relationship.

This declaration of a CMV is more nonsensical than declaring "There's no real benefit that outweighs the costs of playing video games".

Games give some people stress relief / outlet. They're fun for some. Some may even argue that they keep their minds sharp through games. Some use games just to keep in touch with friends regularly (because you sometimes run out of interesting things to talk about, if you're skyping a few hours every week).

I don't care about any of it except keeping in contact with friends and making rapport... but it's obvious other people enjoy it. They're fun. It's about what people personally care about and value.

LTRs can be useful in providing us legacy and pleasure. Pleasures like sex and just being pampered and idolized.

These are things I personally care about, but don't expect others to. It's about personal preference. Personal desires and priorities. If you're perfectly fine never being in any romantic relationship, then good for you. We'll all be happier that way.

RedFlaky · 2017-05-05T00:58:36+00:00

At its essence, life is pretty much just a collection of decisions where one tries to get the best benefit/cost ratio out of what they do, so pretty much a big Opportunity Cost parade all the way from birth until you die.

If this is truly how you view Life, I pity you.

siaynoq11 · 2017-05-05T01:38:23+00:00

A lot of this just sounds like fear talking.

sublimemongrel · 2017-05-04T22:03:39+00:00

If it's too hard for an individual/not worth it to them, ok, they don't have to get into any sort of relationship with anyone. Many of us would argue the potential/actual benefits are worth the risks. Many of us would argue there are ways to mitigate said risks, but nevertheless, some risks must be assumed.

Outside of that, you mention several things that simply don't appear "fixable" (like your GF/BF can simply leave and decide they don't want to try and fix it, or you may end up wasting time and resources on someone who is ultimately unsuitable), and I'm wondering your thoughts on how you go about fixing those exactly?

sublimemongrel · 2017-05-04T22:23:04+00:00

[deleted]

sublimemongrel · 2017-05-04T22:07:04+00:00

When I started dating my husband he was:

in his 6th year of college with no end in sight
in debt and using only cash due to...
terrible credit
no savings
living in a junior 1 bed apartment in his home town
Hawaiian shirts and Costco jeans style wise
ONS/FWB on and off again

Now:

gainfully employed in his chosen field
no debt (uses AMEX for points and we've taken some sweet trips using them)
great credit
savings for short term emergencies and retirement
lives in a lovely little house he is very proud of (he's shopping for a hot tub to complete his backyard fantasy)
great style/grooming that gets him hit on by gay men
general swagger and confidence from being worshipped for 12 years

Women. What's the point?!

EliteSpartanRanger · 2017-05-04T22:40:48+00:00

A caring partnership, companionship, love

sublimemongrel · 2017-05-04T21:12:09+00:00

Way to look at the worst case scenario and hyperbolic negatives while completely neglecting the positives. Re-evaluate how you view the world because it is highly distorted

[deleted] · 2017-05-04T21:15:55+00:00

MASCULINITY IS RISK TAKING, you can keep being a safe little boy but idk why you wanna convince the rest of us to settle for mediocrity like you. Why would you want to justify your behavior as the "safe guy"? This is the reason why you cant assume everyone in the manosphere is a terper, completely different mindsets

Life isn't worth living the way you describe

This post reeks of feminine MGTOW thinking

[deleted] · 2017-05-04T21:28:57+00:00

What are you so scared of women for? They can't hurt you, can they?

[deleted] · 2017-05-04T21:46:25+00:00

Call me a romantic, it's called falling in love. Vulnerability, possibly of things not working out and being hurt, is all part of it. That doesn't mean I avoid it all together, although I can be smart about it.

If you are worried about financial cost you don't have to get legally married. But relationships all together? Yes spending time with someone is an investment, but that doesn't mean it's an unpleasant one. Getting to know people, going on dates, finding what you enjoy together have been all meaningful, fun experiences. Have you been in a loving relationship before? It's not quite the same as going to prostitutes or playing video games with friends, not that there is anything wrong with the two.

wtknight · 2017-05-04T23:01:18+00:00

A person (usually male, due to cultural standards) needs to approach the person they're interested in and risk public shaming, insulting etc if they're rejected;

Not true. I approached every woman who I've dated online.

People need to invest vast amounts of time and resources into getting to know their partner (or partner-to-be), without barely any guarantee they'll be a suitable pair

It's fun talking to women even if it doesn't work out. I don't consider an eventual failure a waste of time and resources at all, especially if you meet women who don't expect you to pay for them on dates.

The risk of cheating; cheating is glorified in a lot of media; cheating is sometimes even justified or defended by others;

I've never had anybody cheat on me. If I did then, who knows, maybe I'd agree with you on this point, but I consider it an individual fault rather than some fault of women as a whole.

I really don't see any real benefit you can extract from modern romantic relationships.

You didn't mention love.

[deleted] · 2017-05-04T23:07:19+00:00

Rejection, infidelity and even divorce don't have to ruin a person's life. Nor are those things so common as to be reasons for staying away from long term relationships forever. Most people want romance and partnership in their lives, they can be incredibly enriching. And guess what, most people see the relationships they have now and had in the past as ultimately being worth it, even if some ended painfully.

It's okay to not do things out of fear. But don't expect the rest of mankind to live life like that.

OpheliaMachine · 2017-05-04T23:10:32+00:00

Yeah, dating can be frustrating and it's easy to get cynical about it, but OP, you actually are touching on a really important point that gets ignored a lot. In the past, there were much stronger material incentives to get married.

It's honestly so weird to see people talk about sexual market value as though that's just the human norm. Sexual market value has only recently become more important than someone's suitability for marriage. A medieval man might go "Well, Tiffany has a few pox scars and she's not exactly elfin, but she can lift a pig under each arm and she's a good cook. I need a good wife if I'm going to inherit and run dad's hog farm. It's that or join the army and die of cholera in a muddy field in northern France." In the same way, a woman would decide who could offer her the best life, because otherwise who would care for her aging parents, who would help her run a household, who would give her children to provide in her old age? A household of one was simply not feasible.

So, who you pursued was tied to your vision of your future self. Falling for the charming traveling musician or someone else's pretty young wife wasn't just a harmless dalliance. It was the equivalent of a college-bound kid blowing off the SAT. It was irresponsible, and the consequences could be disastrous for their plans for the future.

Compare that to today. Birth control makes consequence-free sex possible, and prosperity is such that you don't need to rely so heavily on kinship bonds. There are a hundred things about the modern world that soften the blow of leading a non-traditional (ie. promiscuous, uncommitted, non-heterosexual, etc) lifestyle. And overall, I think that's a good thing, because I'll take modern dating culture over life as a subsistence pig farmer any day.

So I think OP has a very legitimate grievance. The returns for getting a good match are not what they used to be--so much that people's willingness to even find a permanent partner has fallen off a lot. But then again, setting up society so that people are economically forced to stay with a partner they hate....that's...how shall I say...bad. I'll take a little cultural toxicity if it means people have greater freedom.

thisno · 2017-05-05T03:27:57+00:00

It benefits women more than it benefits men. Men have to do all the work. They have to make the first move. They have to be charming. Their is such a large list that can make you seem like a creep. Look ugly, wear the wrong cloths, say the wrong thing, say the right thing but at the wrong time, calling instead of texting, There is a huge list that can turn attraction off for women. So guys basically have to be perfect.

Now women say they have to be perfect too but that is because that is what they been told. In reality average guys have a harder time dating than average women. Women don't even expect to have to text first, plan dates, or anything. A woman with small boobs can get get tons of tinders matches, tons of likes and followers on Instagram, be in a relationship already, and have guys trying to get at her. And she will still say women have it equally if not more hard because women need big tits to be attractive. Women just like to say they have it harder because that is part of their always be a victim strategy.

So back to my point. Guys have to do way more to get into a relationship. They have to say the right things at the right time. They have to be out going, have at least good financial potential. Be confident, carry the conversation. Women biggest complaint is they have to shave, eat right, and put on make up. They don't have to be outgoing, carry a conversation, or do any of that stuff.

So what ends up happening for the guy is he invested a lot of time, work, feelings, and energy into dating. You know what they say about how you appreciate something more if you work for it than if it is handed to you. BINGO we have this scenario right here. The women did not put in any work. So at the start of the relationship it is uneven. They say guys fall faster than girls do. Yes it is true because we have to invest more.

So since women are not as invested in relationship, they are more likely to leave. Not only that, once they leave the do not have to put in work to find a new partner. Mean while the guy who put in all the effort has to start over again. Men are more likely to commit suicide after a breakups. Men never truly get over break ups,men are hurt a harder after break ups.

So relationships are dangerous for men mentally and emotionally. Women do not care what they put men through in order for relationship to happen. Women do not care what they put men through after breakups. They are like rich kids, that can never truly value money because they always have had it. Women can not truly value relationships because they never truly worked for one. So I advise guys not to engage or invest in women. It is literally dangerous, until women can learn to commit.

the_calibre_cat · 2017-05-05T04:28:42+00:00

Disagree. Companionship and validation is huge, and totally worth the risk. We should still strive to de-fang the state's role in micromanaging relationship, tho.

rulenumber303 · 2017-05-05T08:37:45+00:00

Oh no not public shaming and insulting! Whatever shall I do? I better never step outside or talk to anyone because they might insult me!

This is loser mentality through and through.

I agree the risk of marriage is very little for such a high risk, but an LTR is absolutely a mutually rewarding experience and the risk is very minimal.

OurThrownAwayDreams · 2017-05-04T21:31:21+00:00

Edit: my bad, I'll try to expand this, was on the phone so just wanted to push the link out first

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/12/04/the-sexodus-part-1-the-men-giving-up-on-women-and-checking-out-of-society/

I wanted to link this article for OP to read because that's the tune I've been reading and hearing a lot. The article doesn't cover some of the things OP described, such as cheating. However, a lot of what's in the article talked about how the atmopshere nowadays is not friendly towards men.

second part of the article interviews men who have given up, and also Milo's writing confirms that many men, just like OP, have ran the cost benefit analysis to conclude that the risks, and the efforts involved are not worth it. You can interpret it however you want and cast your own judgement, but there seems to be some validity to it. Are they really Peter Pans? Or are they doing what any rational men would do?

"Men want normal relationships that include sex, says Valizadeh. Some of them will read pick-up artist books or go to seminars by people such as Roosh V if they don’t get it or need to be trained out of “white knight” behaviours instilled in them by a female-dominated culture. (Men have been taught that being a nice guy gets you laid. It doesn’t.) What strikes a lot of women as strange is how rational and systematic so much of this decision-making is by men. Many young men literally perform a cost-benefit analysis and decide that women aren’t worth the hassle. It’s girls who lose out in this scenario: men don’t need the sustained emotional intimacy that comes with a fulfilling sexual relationship and can retreat into masturbatory pursuits, prostitution and one-night stands much more comfortably."

I am by no means trying to push for MGTOW. I think every men should make their own choices since the conditions are different for everyone. However, what seems to be universally the same across the board is that the dating game got harder for most people (those not in the upper 20%), and the rules surely have changed - something we've been talking and arguing to death here on PPD.

myrpwi_account · 2017-05-04T23:33:15+00:00

Before I got married I presented the MGTOW argument against marriage to my husband. He said the reasons he wanted to marry are the following.

Sex.
Back rubs.
He no longer has to cook or grocery shop and his meals are healthier. He likes having a hot meal when he comes home, his lunch made everyday, and breakfast when he walks out the door.
When he goes away on business, he no longer has to find someone to look after the dog.
He no longer has to clean or do laundry.
Companionship and company.

2017-05-04T21:14:36+00:00

[deleted]

alreadyredschool · 2017-05-04T21:26:19+00:00

I am not hooked on the risks, get better examples.

The risks of being alone and having to rely on tinder sluts for company outweigh the benefits of being alone.

comfysofachair · 2017-05-04T21:36:05+00:00

It used to be sex. These days, with its low cost and high availability, not so much. And I am not talking about prostitutes. Women don't realize the value of sex and give it away cheaply.

Men aren't stupid. If you don't need to get married to have sex you won't get married. "You can have it all" feminists did it to themselves.

Progeny? The planet is already overpopulated and things are going down the toilet (global warming, political chicanery and the rise of the police state, etc.) so why bring someone into this mess?

Economically the arguments are not strong enough. Make more? Live longer? Not without a guarantee.

Then again-maybe, just maybe- you fall in love with someone who wants what you want. But the odds are against it.

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[deleted] · 2017-05-04T22:51:59+00:00

You don't have to get married to have a gf

i_have_a_semicolon · 2017-05-05T03:32:44+00:00

Okay, imagine you meet a woman who is the following:

Beautiful
Smart / emotionally intelligent / good communicator
Loves sex
Praises you
Doesn't fight
Loyal
Trustworthy
Fun, loving
Anything else that you deem important for a relationship

Combination that with self improvement on your part and also what Fiat said about letting go and moving on if she isn't improving your life. Women can be "molded" and shaped into good girlfriends for men they really, really love. If a woman doesn't meet your bar, she's not worth it. What risk is there ? Evaluate a woman, don't put yourself at risk unless you know her. Most people can't suddenly change on a dime and turn into someone they're not and most people's true colors are east enough to discern. Also, remind yourself many women leave the men they were with as the men stopped holding up "their end' so to speak, which is more than just being a beta provider. You have tools at your disposal to live the life you want, you determine the risk and how to mitigate it.

The reward is invaluable on many levels. Experience, good feelings, sex, a partner in crime , etc. Some people are lucky and feel very good for a long time. Years, decades. It might not be extremely common but not extremely rare either. But just because most people can't do X doesn't mean you personally can't do it.

reepbot · 2017-05-05T06:24:51+00:00

Love is pointless.

Love is nothing.

Sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

DebatePony · 2017-05-05T13:33:40+00:00

I don't think your mind can be changed but here we go.

There is risk and reward in all great things in life. You can either roll the dice or sit out due to your fear. What are you gonna do: be a coward, or try to get what you want from life?

Title	CMV: There's no real benefit that outweighs the risks of being in a modern-day long-term romantic relationship
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	19
Comments	162
Date	May 4, 2017 9:08 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/69ad4s/cmv_theres_no_real_benefit_that_outweighs_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-theres-no-real-benefit-that-outweighs-the.268355 https://theredarchive.com/post/268355

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