Male physical attractiveness more important than masculinity in predicting female orgasm (suggesting women value/prize attractiveness more than masculinity)

ThorLives · 2015-03-14T17:49:41+00:00

First, I don't think most men are in danger of getting a meathead look, even if they're hitting the gym regularly. I don't know if you think guys who lift weights end up looking like bodybuilders, but I can tell you that I've lifted weights regularly for decades, and I was never in danger of looking like a body builder - instead, I just look really fit.

Second, one thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is the question of men's experiences of what women want. Here's a concept I want to put forward: "underserved market". There may be cases where a minority of women want something (e.g. very masculine men) where there's a general lack of men meeting that need. Let's say that 30% of women want masculine men. Now you might say, "Gee, most women aren't searching for/going for masculine men", and that would be entirely accurate. However, if only 10% of men are "masculine", then it's an underserved market. What you'll see is that going from being an unmasculine man to a masculine man dramatically improves the amount of interest you see from women. But how is that possible if only 30% of women are looking for masculine men? It's because the guy went from being one of the 90% of guys fighting over 70% of women to being one of the 10% of guys juggling the other 30% of women. The male:female ratio changes dramatically in his favor. This might cause men to go, "Wow. Women really want masculine men! That's what women want.". That would be a false statement, however, based on his experience, it seems like a very true statement. What we're really seeing is the result of an underserved market. I think some of these discussions are actually about an underserved market, rather than actually revealing what "women really want".

This could also explain why men might say, "I changed to be more X,Y,Z, and my dating options improved a lot! That's what women want.", and then someone (e.g. a woman or bluepiller) will say, "I talked to people around me, and none of them mention wanting X,Y,Z, so it can't really be true that most women want X,Y,Z." which can lead to discussions of "watch what women do, not what they say". Of course, it's possible that what's going on is that the men are discovering the advantages of going into an underserved market.

why does red pill, a self professed sexual strategy sub, interested in figuring out and emulating what females find most attractive, obsess more about masculinity than attractiveness?

Stuff like lifting weights and getting in shape does increase a man's attractiveness. Also, there are certain limitations on a man's attractiveness based on his genetics (he's not able change the shape of his face, for example). In that case, men need to work on what they can improve (attitude, etc) and ignore the things he can't (certain markers of attractiveness), even if the latter is actually a bigger factor.

ThrowAwayBro737 · 2015-03-14T19:48:50+00:00

The problem here is that a lot of physical traits that are labeled under the category of "attractiveness" are really just expressions of dominance and masculinity. So, a study might say that women are more attracted to men with square jaws than dominant behavior; but that's because a square jaw is a proxy for testosterone and dominant behavior.

Think about it. Height is more important than masculine behavior. But women use height as a proxy for masculinity. Maybe a muscular physique is more important than masculine/dominant behavior. But muscles are merely a proxy for masculinity and social dominance.

So really, the study is flawed because it falsely created a divide between dominant behavior and physical features which suggest dominance and masculinity.

UniversityofToronto · 2015-03-15T18:46:49+00:00

I'm genuinely confused why you, as a BPer (I think, but it seems you don't wear a tag for some reason) posted this.

This proves RP.

Women are attracted to "physical attractiveness" and masculinity. Which is what RP preaches.

Sure physical attractiveness has a greater effect. That's why there's an emphasis on self-improvement. Masculinity adds to that attractiveness.

Try finding a study that being a "stable husband" or "good father" or "being feminine* has any effect on the female orgasm (it doesn't). So counter to the feminist narritive, women are attracted to masculinity and tall, good-looking, Alphas. Good to know.

namae_nanka · 2015-03-14T17:14:32+00:00

http://endofwomen.blogspot.com/2015/03/steroids-are-new-skinny.html

Unless they're jacking up on steroids, RPers aren't exactly getting the musclehead look. Too much of everything is a bad thing, men might like boobies, doesn't mean they don't become grotesque beyond a point.

why does red pill, a self professed sexual strategy sub, interested in figuring out and emulating what females find most attractive

Dunno,

https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/10/19/manly-men-confused-why-unmanly-men-get-girls/

For the stats naive, .50 correlation explains 25% of variance, .36 correlation explains 13%, making looks twice as important as masculinity according to this study.

hehe

http://humanvarieties.org/2014/03/31/what-does-it-mean-to-have-a-low-r-squared-a-warning-about-misleading-interpretation/

Luke631 · 2015-03-14T22:01:58+00:00

Many Red Pill men follow PUA/game advice which touts that status > physical attractiveness. What these guys don't understand is that the PUA scam is about exploiting men's insecurities and giving false hope to make money. They downplay physical attractiveness and overemphasize "alpha-ness." And while it's true that being confident and displaying high status can help raise a woman's overall attraction for a man, it will never trump pure physical attraction in terms of getting laid. A guy whose sexual strategy is to "spin plates" need only be good looking. A guy whose sexual strategy is to be in a LTR needs good looks and "alpha" traits.

That's why there are so many threads regarding confidence and displaying high status on TRP and Seddit. But whenever a guy comes along to show that physical attraction plays a major role, the community bashes him and denies the truth. No matter that scientific evidence backs up the claim over and over again. They'd rather live in their own fantasies than reality despite what TRP is supposed to be all about. I guess most guys just want to hold on to some form of hope even if it's false.

Beliefs are difficult to change.

Antiteetotaler · 2015-03-15T15:00:38+00:00

Facial attractiveness is unchangable. What would be the point of focusng on it? Even if masculinity and dominance are only half as effective as good looks, they are more malleable qualities and it is better to focus on them.

Also cardio+weights brah. Endurance is very quickly trained and is harshly limited by genetics. Strength is just much more trainable and modern studies have actually found a huge amount of benefits from it. Cardio vs weights just has a class element to it with cardio being upper and weights being plebe.

AlphaFemale9 · 2015-03-15T18:07:04+00:00

Bottom line, physical attractiveness is the only way men get away with playing 'alpha' anyway.

taiboworks · 2015-03-15T20:23:11+00:00

Using orgasm as a proxy for actual desire is interesting, but the typical reliance on subjective self-reporting makes it meaningless. /r/deadbedrooms is full of frustrated partners who can't even agree on how often they have sex, and spreadsheet-husband was vilified for getting objective about it. And when the second paper observes that women claim a preference for less muscular men yet less muscular men claim having had fewer successes, someone is definitely full of shit.

Carkudo · 2015-03-14T18:02:25+00:00

So what this means is no amount of 'game' will make a woman attracted to you when it comes to physical looks. Sure you can change your body, but you can't change your face.

Nitzi · 2015-03-14T16:42:32+00:00

obsess more about masculinity than attractiveness?

I don't do that

For example, according to research women prefer toned men to muscle heads, but red pill obsesses over weight lifting

Lifting is great for your mentality, everyone knows that looking like Arnold is bad, but you won't look like him when you go to the gym 5 times a week. There even was a thread about celebrities, it was said that Hugh Jackman was too jacked and Brad Pitt in fight club was the best body you could have. But who cares, we are discussing about TRP strawman here, so yes you are correct.

I think we should talk about why women say that they don't want muscular men.

The normal conversation goes like this: "I want to go to the gym now and get buffed" girl: "No don't do that, muscles don't look good" Then you get buffed and she is all over your new muscles. It could be because many women still believe that if they start to train they would get overtly buffed and look horrible (which won't happen if you don't juice).

I also think it has much to do with a positive body image, since women are very concerned about that they also want men to have it but secretly want them to be jacked.

taiboworks · 2015-03-15T06:01:45+00:00

Neither .36 nor .50 seems particularly noteworthy to me.

relationshipdownvote · 2015-03-15T20:02:51+00:00

I really wish you actually tried lifting and saw how impossible it is to get jacked. Lifting weights is the fastest and easiest way to get the body type that women want.

chazzALB · 2015-03-16T03:46:56+00:00

How does one even separate masculinity from male attractiveness? They are intrinsically linked.

wazzup987 · 2015-03-14T23:57:19+00:00

False the best predictor of getting a woman to orgasm is knowing what the fuck you are doing

feelstheheats · 2015-03-15T02:01:20+00:00

Sorry but I think that statement is bullshit.

A guy can be buff as hell, have the nicest ass I could bounce quarters off of, but if he doesn't act confident, or he doesn't act like he is the strongest man in the room, my attraction for his body is instantly lost. Masculinity is the core of attraction, trust me.

Title	Male physical attractiveness more important than masculinity in predicting female orgasm (suggesting women value/prize attractiveness more than masculinity)
Author	taiboworks
Upvotes	17
Comments	154
Date	March 14, 2015 4:40 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2z15qw/male_physical_attractiveness_more_important_than/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/male-physical-attractiveness-more-important-than.283111 https://theredarchive.com/post/283111

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