Are redpillers and niceguys two sides of the same coin?

JustSomeDude425 · 2014-10-18T00:32:32+00:00

I'm someone who sees echoes of my own failed marriage in TRP, but I wasn't a "nice guy" in the standard sense that many people think of as passive aggressive losers.

I'm a middle aged guy now, but when I was younger, I was very tall and muscular, handsome, strong and athletic, very intelligent. I was a multi-sport jock in high school, dated cheerleaders, the whole bit. I had spent time doing physical labor outside and would routinely get whistled at by women driving past. In other words, I was a stud. Had no problem getting women. The very first time I went on a date with my ex wife, I still smelled of sex from one of the very few one night stands I ever had...and the woman who would become my wife knew that I just had sex with another woman.

I was not in any way an asshole, but I wasn't a "nice guy". I was a good man, which is an entirely different thing; courteous, considerate, conscientious, moral, responsible. But I also had no problem with confrontation or asking for what I wanted.

Before I got married, I received some advice from some women in my family that I unfortunately listened to; it essentially boiled down to "happy wife, happy life". I was told that to make the marriage work, I should do whatever I could to keep my wife happy. I did just that, and it destroyed my marriage.

I put my ex's happiness before my own. I started deferring to her wishes. My ex started giving me shit tests. I didn't realize at the time what they were, but they were shit tests. I tried to make her happy and would fail the tests, of course. After a couple of years, sex just stopped. She started treating me with contempt. She started having an online affair with someone and everything that was said was logged. I read through it all, and it was the fact that I was so nice and accommodating that caused her to not want to be with me, but also made her feel guilty about what she was doing. "He's just so nice!" was said by her multiple times. She literally said "compared to all my friends husbands he's an angel, but I'm bored". After confronting her, I got the "I love you, but I'm not in love with you" line. What followed was years of "for the kids" hell and cheating on her part.

I'm not worried about the whole alpha/beta thing. I'm not someone who has problems getting women, but the theory of human sexuality often referred to as the "Red Pill" matches my own experiences. I'm not interested in using it to engage in casual sex with lots of women. I am interested in learning some very basic things so that I don't sabotage my relationship by doing things that will kill the attraction my SO feels towards me and take me back down the road of sexless relationship punctuated by periods of manipulation, leavened with contempt.

And, of course, I'll never put myself in a position to allow the government to force me to give my stuff to a woman who took advantage of my sense of duty as a father and treated me like shit for years...will never marry again. Ever.

[deleted] · 2014-10-18T19:11:46+00:00

Stop with the spreading of female sexual strategy. Nice guys are after love and affection (Gosh! The assholes). The fact that so many women decide they're just after sex so they can brush it off is quite telling.

Villaintine · 2014-10-17T22:33:52+00:00

A lot of red pillers, as they describe their former selves, were "Nice Guys", so yes, they are two sides of the same coin. The attitudes are somewhat similar too if you take a longer view.

While there is no certain way that people have to act, there are general rules that should be kept in mind within your actions. Chief amongst those are "don't screw others over" and "don't spread hatred". Other rules that might apply relate to the negative societal impact of unbridled manipulation/narcissism that TRP sometimes advocates

There is more than one way to attract women. There are always more options. Misogyny, by definition, is hatred, or contempt. It dehumanizes the people that you are trying to attract, which really doesn't do anything productive for anyone. Social interaction is an open-ended world though, there are options for everyone.

In my personal experience, I used to be a "Nice Guy". I had that mindset, I know what it's like, especially given that I rejected those ideas in favor of whatever the hell I believe now.

Ignatius_Oh_Reilly · 2014-10-17T22:30:56+00:00

I'm naturally an "asshole". I am not nor have I ever been charged with being a "nice guy". Being alpha and an asshole are not the same. Being an asshole in and of itself won't attract women.

There are places where there is overlap between asshole and alpha which I think causes the confusion. One can be an asshole and neurotic, indecisive. Being a kindly sensitive man, instead of a nice guy, is what being alpha is to an asshole. The fully developed equivalent, that is a person competent in the role they have chosen.

Being red pill is about more than getting a girl. I don't even think it's the most important part. The attraction that is generated can be used a one of many gauges to see if you are improving, along with do people look for you to lead in crisis situations, are you genuinely confident, are you not submissive to others etc...

Phokus · 2014-10-18T00:37:56+00:00

One of my favorite essays about 'nice guys' and the manosphere:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/

So am I claiming that the feminist war on “nice guys” is totally uncorrelated with the existence of the manosphere?

No. I’m saying the causal arrow goes the opposite direction from the one Barry’s suggesting. As usual with gender issues, this can be best explained through a story from ancient Chinese military history.

Chen Sheng was an officer serving the Qin Dynasty, famous for their draconian punishments. He was supposed to lead his army to a rendezvous point, but he got delayed by heavy rains and it became clear he was going to arrive late. The way I always hear the story told is this:

Chen turns to his friend Wu Guang and asks “What’s the penalty for being late?”

“Death,” says Wu.

“And what’s the penalty for rebellion?”

“Death,” says Wu.

“Well then…” says Chen Sheng.

And thus began the famous Dazexiang Uprising, which caused thousands of deaths and helped usher in a period of instability and chaos that resulted in the fall of the Qin Dynasty three years later.

The moral of the story is that if you are maximally mean to innocent people, then eventually bad things will happen to you. First, because you have no room to punish people any more for actually hurting you. Second, because people will figure if they’re doomed anyway, they can at least get the consolation of feeling like they’re doing you some damage on their way down.

This seems to me to be the position that lonely men are in online. People will tell them they’re evil misogynist rapists – as the articles above did – no matter what. In what is apparently shocking news to a lot of people, this makes them hurt and angry. As someone currently working on learning psychotherapy, I can confidently say that receiving a constant stream of hatred and put-downs throughout your most formative years can really screw you up. And so these people try to lash out at the people who are doing it to them, secure in the knowledge that there’s no room left for people to hate them even more.

I know this is true because it happened to me. I never became a manospherian per se, because two wrongs don’t make a right, but – as readers of this essay may be surprised to learn – I did become just a little bit bitter about feminism. If I hadn’t been so sure about that “two wrongs” issue I probably would have ended up a lot more radicalized.

17b29a · 2014-10-17T22:38:25+00:00

What if I'm naturally an asshole, or a nice guy?

That is immaterial. The essential characteristic of both groups is that they think some specific trait will get them laid (and perhaps that it's expressed superficially and insincerely), not that they simply exhibit that trait.

If there's no certain way I should act, why are you constantly telling me how to act?

It's more that you shouldn't put on a facade.

If it's proven that you can attract women acting a certain way, should we hide it because it's misogynistic? Does this man advocate ignorance? Is he anti-science?

Not acting that way isn't hiding information.

_whatdreamsmaycome_ · 2014-10-19T19:04:32+00:00

Red Pill definitely comes from the same kind of place 'Nice Guy' does. It's also the same place that the concept of the 'friendzone' hails from - basically, a shallow perception of 'what women want' based upon the false premise that there is some special combination of behaviour that will get you laid; calculated attempts at romantic maneuvering. I think it all stems from the same place of resentment that wooing tactics have not worked. If you're naturally a 'nice guy' there's no problem; it's exactly the NiceGuys^TM - men who actively put on some performance of being a certain way to get what they want - who are the issue. Chances are, if you think you're a Nice Guy and you know it/talk about it, you're probably not such a good person, and it is unsurprising that you're not having luck in the romance department.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by your second question - who exactly is telling you how to act? If you're talking about the 'Nice guy' phenomenon - that probably originated with men, not women. If a guy decides that they're going to put on some 'nice guy' performance to pique a woman's interest, that's up entirely to him: but if you're just not a good person, she can probably detect this deception and will be put off by it.

Finally, I don't know that it's been 'proven' that you can attract women by acting a certain way. All I can say is, if your behaviour towards her or in general is misogynistic, you still fall into the category of asshole - and while certain women might find themselves attracted to that, it's probably not the kind you'd want to build a relationship with anyway.

AshleyYakeley · 2014-10-18T01:45:01+00:00

Actually I think it's the opposite. What feminists call Nice Guys^{TM^TM} and what RPs call beta manginas are basically the same set of men.

Don't be one of those men.

raouldukeesq · 2014-10-17T22:30:13+00:00

The nice guys and red pillars you speak of are caricatures. There are so many variations of people and attitudes that lumping people into either group is kind of useless.

InformalCriticism · 2014-10-18T03:17:21+00:00

I am naturally a nice guy. I have noticed that this is ordinarily seen as an unattractive quality when it is consistent. What I've adapted from TRP is that you can be nice up front so you are judged to be well mannered, and then balance the asshole act in a playful way. For whatever reason, women just like it better that way. I would much rather be a nice guy all the time, but it just doesn't work.

I don't really understand that second question.

I don't think it's useful to answer that third question; the answers are fairly obvious "no", "no", and "yes", respectively.

[deleted] · 2014-10-18T05:06:57+00:00

I know it's a cliche but you should just try being yourself. If you have to act a certain way to get someone to like you, then they don't really like the real you.

I know a perfect subreddit for people who do this - it's called /r/foreveralone

reezyreddits · 2014-10-18T23:12:02+00:00

RedPillers think that if your an asshole to a girl you'll get sex.

This is simply a false claim, so it's no way to argue against it. straw arguments ftw.

[deleted] · 2014-10-19T08:43:12+00:00

The coin is called the Criminal/Loser Complex, and it's very like the Madonna/Whore Complex.

little-animal · 2014-10-19T17:51:03+00:00

I've toyed with different personalities to make both men and women love me, so I can't say I wholly agree that one shoe fits all.

There is the high possibility that my experience is biased due to my gender and disinterest in women sexually, but on the whole I'd struggle to say "do this and they're guaranteed to want to fuck you!"

GooseNewberg · 2014-10-20T22:04:29+00:00

There's a reason so many "Nice Guys" find eventually themselves into TRP.

Reginleifer · 2014-10-18T03:06:10+00:00

I never had illusions of being a "nice" person, to me nice people are actually pretty rare and for the longest time I defined it to mean what you would call "atruistic" people.

One of the contributions to my red pill thinking was seeing these people be abused, taken advantage of and ignored by women.

[deleted] · 2014-10-18T15:25:41+00:00

I know it's a cliche but you should just try being yourself. If you have to act a certain way to get someone to like you, then they don't really like the real you.

I fucking hate this bullshit. If everyone just thought "be yourself" then no one would ever develop and improve themselves. If I had this mindset I'd go, well then I am myself no point improving anything, maybe I'd still be socially awkward as I was in my teen years instead of working to become more socially apt, maybe I'd still be fat rather than improving my diet and exercising, maybe I'd still live at home because hey, I'm fine how I am, this is the real me, why do I need to earn money?

As for TRP and "nice guys" in particular, both are extremes and I think it's best to exist between two extremes. I don't think they're similar though - TRP offers advice (as misguided as that advice may be) whereas "nice guys" are just people who think being a doormat will give them a perfect relationship.

cascadecombo · 2014-10-18T01:15:13+00:00

RedPillers think that if your an asshole to a girl you'll get sex.

this is not true, since when i having fun where everyone is enjoying themselves being an asshole?

Tombstone31 · 2014-10-18T01:50:18+00:00

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2a3en3/why_playing_hard_to_get_doesnt_work_and_a_better/

See especially my thoughts on the "3 different levels" of game.

Title	Are redpillers and niceguys two sides of the same coin?
Author	fizolof
Upvotes	24
Comments	118
Date	October 17, 2014 10:01 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2jk1ol/are_redpillers_and_niceguys_two_sides_of_the_same/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/are-redpillers-and-niceguys-two-sides-of-the-same.284571 https://theredarchive.com/post/284571

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