"Positive Discrimination" by Dutch university ruled unconstitutional

Theija · 2020-07-06T09:36:04+00:00

Last year the Dutch university TU Eindhoven announced they would only hire women for most positions. A policy of "positive discrimination" sanctioned by the Dutch government to combat inequality, but in violation of our constitution and European law.

This was discussed in this sub last year in threads like this one.

I, and many others, filed complaints, and with positive results! The College for Human Rights has ruled that this discrimination is indeed unconstitutional and against European law. They are allowed to stimulate more women scientists and educators, but not outright deny all (even much more qualified) men any chance to apply.

I consider this is a huge win! :)

Rockmapper_ · 2020-07-06T10:17:09+00:00

Almost no discrimination is positive. Best person for the job. The only way this should be used is within primary and secondary schools where there should always be men and women as staff and that is because they create role models for the students which is essential for effective development.

VeritasDitum · 2020-07-06T09:38:54+00:00

Discrimination when tied to an agenda only serves those who initiates the agenda.

Plisken999 · 2020-07-06T17:24:37+00:00

Wall of text ahead, bare with me.

I live in Quebec, Canada.

Done with high school, I was aiming at police science. I worked out a year prior to this and studied.

My physical test, I destroyed it. My school grade, above 85% everywhere.

Outcome? I was on the second one on the waiting list if someone dropped out, and in that case they still fit you in a couple of police classes to get some credits.

I kid you not, they picked up twins sisters... Both 5foot2 and barely a 100lb each. They managed to do the bare minimum at physical test.

Then I learned what was the physical test for girls...

For BOYS

-30sits up in 1min at least

-Holding my eyes above a bar for one minute in a CHIN UP position

-The PACER test or beep test (doing 20meters before a beep sound). I had to do at LEAST 8 tier to pass (all other tests forfeited) and 12 tier to have 100%

And now for GIRLS

15 sit ups in 1min

-holding their eyes above bar for 30secs in a PULL UP position

The PACER test. They had to do MINIMUM 4 to pass and 8 to get 100%.

I never felt so betrayed in my life before that. I was literally flabbergasted to see those two very little girls being picked because police school HAD to hire women.

I get it, its mostly a men job.. And I have noooooo probleme at all with women in the police force. None.

But cmon we are talking about people sometimes having to save people life from an accident or worst, from a criminal.

After a while I decided to do something else in my life. I dont want to use that as an excuse but whats point of working hard and giving a year to get into a class and just being tossed aside because I have a penis, or them being picked up because they have a vagina.

I know two cops now and both told me that sometimes they have to patrol with little women(i dont mean in a bad way, they were just small for cops) and they said everytime they had a call, they would say that they would wait in the car and call back up if needed.... :/

All the while... We have only a few men being teachers at school. I only had one or two male teachers in my whole life at school.. But we never heard the government waiting to push more men in the profession. They also wont lower the requirement to fit men.

Its a double standard situation. And theres many cases like that.

I know I only have me to blame but I kind of regrets not being a cop today.

Oh well...

nocivo · 2020-07-06T10:08:13+00:00

Thanks god people that wrote the constitution in most the countries were good mans.

neveragoodtime · 2020-07-06T14:08:54+00:00

Feminist Platform: End due process for the accused.

MRA Platform: End discrimination based on sex.

Feminists think differences in outcomes is sexual discrimination. MRAs think discrimination based on sex is sexual discrimination. They cannot end sexual discrimination with sexual discrimination.

The battles we must fight illuminate the existing power imbalance. Which side are you on?

Mythandros · 2020-07-06T15:44:17+00:00

"Positive discrimination" is an oxymoron.

There is no discrimination that can be positive.

This is such a back asswards way of thinking. No doubt put forward by feminists. No surprise there.

ZimbaZumba · 2020-07-06T13:44:58+00:00

Translation:-

Board decides TU Eindhoven preference policy

To reduce the structural and persistent backlog of female scientists at universities, you can pursue a preference policy as a university. However, the way in which Eindhoven University of Technology (TU / E) has formulated its preference policy goes too far and is therefore in conflict with Dutch equal treatment legislation. That is how the Board of Human Rights judged.

The College ruled on 2 July last about the Irène Curie Fellowship (ICF) program of the TU / E. TU / E created this program to attract more female scientists. In short, the program means that the university will only open all scientific vacancies for a certain period to female candidates. Radar Foundation, which received more than fifty complaints and reports about the ICF program from people who believe that the university discriminates against men with this, went to the College.

Persistent backlog of women at the Technical University

The percentage of female scientists at TU / E is low (in 2018) at all levels: 14% of professors, 13% of associate professors, and 24% of assistant professors are women. TU / E has the smallest share of female scientists of all Dutch and European universities. The university thus demonstrates the serious disadvantage of women in academic positions.

Measures to reduce the backlog

In the past, TU / E has taken various measures to increase the share of female scientists. This has not had the desired result. That is why TU / E decided to run the ICF program. The ICF program means that all new scientific positions in the university are only open to women. Only if TU / E has not interviewed a female candidate after six months, the vacancy will also be open to men. The program lasts five years. In the first period, the program applies to all vacancies. This can then be adjusted downwards on the basis of the results achieved. The program only has an exception for excellent male candidates. A maximum of 10% of all vacancies may be filled in this way by men.

Why is this preference policy not allowed?

Preference policy is an exception to the principle of equal treatment. Therefore, it should only be conducted under strict legal conditions. An important principle of preference policy is that the position is open to men and women and that preference can only be given to a woman if there is equal suitability. In exceptional circumstances, a more far-reaching measure is nevertheless allowed if this is necessary to achieve full equality between men and women.

The case law of the Court of Justice of the EU - which must be taken into account when interpreting Dutch equality treatment legislation - requires that preference policy must not lead to absolute precedence for women. Moreover, the preference policy must be in proportion to the goal of more female scientists. It should also be clear that this goal cannot be achieved by means of less discrimination.

The university gives female candidates almost absolute priority. The preference policy applies university-wide and applies to all academic positions. TU / E does not demonstrate the need for this far-reaching preference policy. The disadvantage of women is not the same within all faculties. Moreover, in recent years, it has been possible to attract more female scientists for some types of scientific positions. In addition, previous measures to attract more female scientists within TU / E were not very binding. For example, there were no financial consequences for faculties or research groups if they failed to attract more women.

For this reason, the Institute is of the opinion that the jump from TU / E to the drastic means of excluding male applicants is not permitted.

Why was TU Delft's preference policy allowed?

In 2012, the Board ruled on a preference policy from Delft University of Technology (2012-195). TU Delft also faced a persistent backlog of female academic staff. That is why she temporarily opened ten extra vacancies for women. All other vacancies were open to men. At the time, TU Delft was able to substantiate why reserving the ten additional functions for women was necessary in order to achieve complete equality between men and women. The Board therefore decided that this was permitted. The TU Delft preference policy on which the Board ruled in 2012 was therefore much less broad and extensivetake that from TU / E now.

What can universities do to remove the backlog of female scientists?

To reduce the backlog of female scientists, universities can also take these - less drastic - measures:

Training selection committees on awareness of their own, often unconscious, prejudices and the effects thereof on the way in which they are assessed. Such training as the College's "Select without Prejudices" training promotes a more objective assessment of the qualities of candidates.

Organize the recruitment and selection procedures in such a way that gender stereotypes are less likely to work through in the selection of personnel. Think of replacing the experience or development requirements in job profiles that are known to be easier for men to meet than for women. This is possible by applying more gender-neutral formulated job requirements.

Internal career development and coaching programs for women by more experienced colleagues;

The strict requirements for preferential policies relate to access to labor. They require that men are not excluded in advance. Less stringent requirements apply to working conditions that "favor" women in order to achieve equal opportunities between men and women. Such employment conditions are often permitted. Think of reserving training and research money for female scientists. This makes it more attractive for a faculty or research institute to attract them.

The requirement that a candidate should preferably add something to the (gender) diversity of the team or the research group may also form part of the job requirements, so that women will meet these job requirements more or better and thus have an advantage.

Quotas for combating the disadvantage of women

In its opinion, the Institute makes it clear that striving for an increase in the number of female scientists is a perfectly legitimate goal. There is also room under equal treatment law to apply (mandatory) quotas for more women in scientific positions.

The disadvantage of women does not only occur in universities. In business, especially at the top, there is still under-representation of women. This may justify the use of a quota, the most stringent form of preference policy, in certain cases. However, if the quota leads in practice to absolute and unconditional exclusion of men, it cannot be said in advance that it is permitted. This depends on the specific situation.

On 12 May, the Board advised the Ministers of Education, Culture and Science and the Minister for Legal Protection about the intended entry-in quota for supervisory boards of listed companies. With this ingrowth quota, the government aims to achieve a more balanced female-male ratio on the supervisory boards. The Institute sees this quota as an important step forward in a long series of earlier non-binding measures. However, the Board does emphasize the strict conditions for preference policy.

Mode1961 · 2020-07-06T13:58:44+00:00

I wonder if Dutch Univ measure "STEM" the same way other org does. They don't count Medicine, Nursing, Biology and other disciplines that IMHO are "SCIENCE" and coincidently have more women than men.

yogibearandthekid · 2020-07-06T12:18:35+00:00

I love the terms used these days to hide the truth "positive discrimination" what kind of fucking oxymoron is that. "Developing Nation" is another, why not just say "3rd world country" see "developing nation" sounds better, it sounds sophisticated because you wouldn't want to imply that people are starving and have no health care.

McFeely_Smackup · 2020-07-06T16:25:18+00:00

all discrimination is "positive" if you're the one benefiting from it.

AchillesWater · 2020-07-06T16:35:03+00:00

SO when it comes to inequality at universities, they completely ignore the population of the actual student body, where men are the minority. Why? Aren't the actual students the most important component of a school? Shouldn't the ultimate goal be equal education?

Senpai59210 · 2020-07-06T19:07:24+00:00

"positive" genocide

hinzea2001 · 2020-07-06T19:49:22+00:00

Even attempting to make positive discrimination a thing is wrong. With the same train of thought, I could say “there weren’t worse water fountains for African Americans post civil war, there were just better white fountains”. Yeah, just because you say it in a positive way doesn’t mean it’s not discrimination.

sircocklord · 2020-07-06T22:35:42+00:00

I see we're still pursuing equal outcomes, can they just not grasp the fact that after we achieved equal opportunities, there are still less women than men who want to be scientists, they aren't getting rejected, they're not applying, this achieves literally nothing but reduce the overall amount of students who get accepted.

NAWALT_VADER · 2020-07-07T02:25:54+00:00

All discrimination based on gender is "positive discrimination" or "benevolent sexism". Feminists only complain if it is positive or benevolent towards men.

Lendari · 2020-07-07T03:50:34+00:00

This is a wakeup call. When you see institutional rules that are discriminatory you you need to challenge them. A lot of universities in the US have policy that flagrantly violates title IX with policies that selectively favor women and even use title IX (which mandates gender equality) to justify their insanity. When these issues go to court they are more often than not struck down.

It's really clear that toxic feminism starts on college campuses. The tools are out there to fight back. Were not losing because we don't have rights. Were losing because we are not fighting the injustice. If you're a victim with standing go for it.

Same for corporate HR organizations instituting discriminatory hiring and salary practices. It is not legal for them to discriminate on the basis of sex.

cashm3outsid3 · 2020-07-06T20:40:56+00:00

this is actually interesting - the (or maybe "a") dutch translation of affirmative action is "positive discrimination" which kind of puts it in a different light.

from this article though - it's not always considered unconstitutional - but just in one university the way that they used it was considered too much

iSkinMonkeys · 2020-07-06T17:50:52+00:00

Yay.. another hollow victory. Universities are den of entrenched bureaucracy with nothing to do but spread and implement their toxic ideologies. On top of that there is no one whose opinion they care about interested in being vigilant against these universities.

Title	"Positive Discrimination" by Dutch university ruled unconstitutional
Author	Theija
Upvotes	2010
Comments	90
Date	July 6, 2020 9:30 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/hm4iom/positive_discrimination_by_dutch_university_ruled/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/positive-discrimination-by-dutch-university-ruled.848353 https://theredarchive.com/post/848353

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