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Are today’s women too picky for their own good? Women are increasingly searching for a Prince Charming who doesn't exist, leaving men disillusioned and scared of commitment. Millions of single women in the USA refuse to trade down and according to Date-onomics, it’s already reaching crisis point.

TR6Cool

November 10, 2015
230 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11984480/Are-todays-women-too-picky-for-their-own-good.html
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Title Are today’s women too picky for their own good? Women are increasingly searching for a Prince Charming who doesn't exist, leaving men disillusioned and scared of commitment. Millions of single women in the USA refuse to trade down and according to Date-onomics, it’s already reaching crisis point.
Author

TR6Cool

Upvotes 230
Comments 213
Date November 10, 2015 9:12 AM UTC
(10 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3s9501/are_todays_women_too_picky_for_their_own_good/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/are-todays-women-too-picky-for-their-own-good.967585
https://theredarchive.com/post/967585
Red Pill terms in post
prince charming
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Comments

[–]iainmf 107 points108 points109 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

You can't expect to have equality and marry up.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 112 points113 points114 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Claiming you want equality while expecting to be treated like a princess is the basis of modern feminism.

So some women do expect exactly that.

[–][deleted] 22 points23 points24 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Most.

[–]ThePigmanAgain 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Almost all.

[–]fullhalf 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

this shit pisses me off to no end.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 82 points83 points84 points 10 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

Are men "scared of commitment" or are they realizing the traditional arrangement is no longer in their best interest so they're avoiding it?

[–]TheDongerNeedsFood 18 points19 points20 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Well, I guess you could say that we're "scared" of entering a situation in which our personal, financial, and often professional and social futures are under the direct control not only of a person other than ourself, but a person who, with the complete and utter backing of law enforcement and the family court system, can destroy them all for any reason they see fit, or for no reason at all.

[–]SuperPCUserName 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This is what scares the living shit out of me. I have seen it with friends and family members and I'm jaded as can be. Also it seems like I'm in this weird middle ground of an age where I can date women my age or younger who want nothing but sexual freedom without any of the relationship strings or date women who want to settle down and marry and have kids before the check has even arrived. I'm a bit lost right now.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

or date women who want to settle down and marry and have kids before the check has even arrived.

When I was dating, I remember a first date where the woman asked me straight up 5 minutes into the date: "So, are you just window shopping"? I noped the fuck out of there.

[–]SlashSero 11 points12 points13 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Men aren't scared of commitment, they are scared of hypergamy. Scared of that one day, no matter how good you treat your wife, a guy that seems more attractive than you will come to pass and replace you. I would love to commit and marry someone that I could trust, but my rational mind tells me that this is simply not realistic any more. You can thank no-fault divorce for that.

[–]Lethn 44 points45 points46 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Yeah that pisses me off, these journalists always fall back to "It's the man's fault" in some form or another, even when it's blatantly obvious what the problem is.

I'd love a relationship, but in the western world where a woman a year younger than me actually walks around with fucking dildo's in a university as a form of 'serious' protest against gun control? There's no way I'd stick my penis in someone like that, especially if I was planning on having children because I'd be worried my kid would grow up a moron because of her.

That's just an example of the kind of girl that's steering me away from going after women in the west obviously for those that tend to jump to conclusions when reading my posts :P.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 22 points23 points24 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

When discussing male/female interactions it's always posited from the female perspective: what she wants is normal and the guys are either in agreement or they're aberrant.

[–]throwwaway2057205 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

Eh, you could always find a girl in a country with stronger family values and, more or less, a cap on this type of behavior. I dunno, I did this by chance when I travelled to Japan on business and met a girl there about 2 years ago now. I really went back and forth for awhile on what to do about her, but I'm glad I made the choice to bring her over here. It's hard to explain how different it is being with someone from Japan vs. America. The women just treat you better (obviously YMMV).

I probably could have found a decent girl in America. I've never had a problem dating, but a lot of women in my early 20s gave no hints of wanting to settle down, or have a meaningful relationship. I had a number of friends with benefits, ONS, and been cheated on when in a relationship, so it's like, fuck it I give up.

I guess I probably also developed some insecurities along the way. For some of the women I've dated my height (5'9'') has been an "issue." I don't really want to be with someone long-term that views this as something negative and important enough to point out/criticize. How you can reduce the worthiness of dating someone to a single physical characteristic is beyond me, but that's just how it works in the West. I can't imagine how different my life would have been if I had been above 6' with a mug like this. The only thing I can compare it to is being extremely popular in highschool and early college years (but then I stopped growing), and going to Japan. Being a bit taller than average and foreign in Japan, the amount of sexual attention I got was surreal. Just completely unbelievable. To date, in America asian and latino girls fucking love me and have had huge success in that dating pool. Although I have dated white women in the past, lately I feel pretty invisible to them.

So yeah, here I am now with a Japanese wife that looks great and has shown so much love and affection for me that I didn't think was possible. I figured I can't and don't want to compete with a fantasy that has settled in the minds of enough American women to put me off from pursuing them any longer. At 28, I'll probably just end up with crap and used goods at this point anyway.

I admit, it does give me a bit of schaudenfreude that I am one of these eligible men that is ducking out of the market because of spoiled goods. I'm pursuing my Ph.D in a prestigious program, will probably find a decent job afterwards, and have a kick ass body from working out consistently for a few years now.

[–]HaberdasherFetishist 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

If western culture is the problem, is moving her to a western country really a good idea?

[–]throwwaway2057205 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

It's growing up in Western culture that's the problem. She's a few years younger than me, but not young enough that her character would radically change. We've met a number of Japanese people in the area so far to make international friends. Those mens' wives aren't turning into sluts just because they've been here for a year or two.

Besides, I should hope I've had enough experience dealing with women by now to be able to handle her. I've had a few long-term relationships and had the experience of living with someone, so I've learned quite a bit.

[–]HaberdasherFetishist 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I hope you're right. Best of luck.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

YMMV is right. My current Japanese GF right now pretty much worships the ground I walk on, but I also dated Japanese chicks who were narcissistic pieces of shit before her.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Non-sequitur. There is no "commitment" in a marriage under no-fault divorce laws. Men are willing to commit. Women aren't. Men are not willing to agree to "commit" to a "while you make me happy" arrangement.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

men are not "scared of commitment." They are scared that their would-be wives value and understand commitment.

There is no "commitment" if you wive can willy-nilly leave you.

I wish the idea of contract marriages would gain more ground--i.e. people entering into contracts where they disclaim no fault divorce and agree to stiff penalties (liquidates damages) for breaking the contract. Really no different than entering into an arbitration agreement.

[–]fullhalf 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

what was the basis of marriage anyway? it was so men could have sex with women. then for a while there, in the middle of the transition into a post feminist world, men were just following tradition. they didn't think about what a marriage was really for. they came to believe it was for commitment and "locking" in the woman. then it turned out that women were divorcing their husbands at an alarming rate and taking all his money.

it was only in the last few years that men have realized that the marriage is dead. before women gave sex away so easily, men were dying to marry women. now women are dying to get married in their late 20s and early 30s so they can lock in that lottery for later.

it's funny though. women have all the same opportunities as a man to make money so why are they so afraid of not being able to support themselves? they don't have the same drive as men but can't stop mouthing off about men not allowing them to succeed.

when i was a boy, my plan was to marry at 26. i'm 30 now and don't even want a family.

[–]tallwheel 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

This exactly. Society still tries its damnedest to keep up the charade that traditional marriage is alive, and that when you marry it's "till death do us part". But when you look around, this is clearly not the case. People need to stop listening to their parents and grandparents who have been fortunate enough to have lasting marriages. They should be looking at the marriages of their peers and slightly older relatives and just look what happened to the marriages that were given their fair shake. All too many of them didn't survive, and the men who were in them are not better off for it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

No doubt things are bad, but it is possible to have a fulfilling marriage. I married someone of like mind, education, and values. It isn't perfect (nothing is), but it works. We support each other and have a wonderful son. Yes, we have had rough spots, but we have weathered through them so far.

So, while I completely understand the aversion to marriage, it is not impossible to find someone with whom a marriage will work.

The key in my case is that I did not meet my wife online, by friends, or in a bar. We met at work; were raised with similar values; and have very similar personalities.

As much as I can say I would never marry again if things don't work , I also cannot fathom the thought of "playing the field" at 40 years old while working a 60-80hr a week job with a kid.

[–]Frobenioid 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

So, while I completely understand the aversion to marriage, it is not impossible to find someone with whom a marriage will work.

Don't mean to be a downer but your marriage hasn't "worked", it just hasn't failed (yet). She could still divorce-rape you and get full custody of your kid if she wanted to and there's very little you could do to stop her from destroying your life.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

My wife makes around what I make, so If there was a divorce, yes, I would lose a lot in the separation of assets, but I would not wind up with huge maintenance payments. My wife and I are both busy professionals and work within walking distance of each other, so there would be no reason not to allow for a 50/50 custody split. I also kept all of my premarital accounts separate and have not spent any of the money in the accounts since we were married, so I would get to keep those (as the funds were not used "in furtherance of the marriage"). Also, while anything is possible, my wife is kind to a fault, not obsessed with material things and if there were a divorce, she would not try and "screw me." Any long protracted battle would be equally damaging for her career and she knows I fight dirty when hit.

So while I very much appreciate that there is always a risk things could go in the shitter, I believe I have minimized that risk to the furthest extent possible.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I also cannot fathom the thought of "playing the field" at 40 years old while working a 60-80hr a week job with a kid.

This is why I'm never having a kid in this environment. Too much risk for both me and the child if things don't work out.

Once in my forties, I can probably do without women at all if necessary, rather than "playing the field" so to speak. If more men could get by without the validation of women at all, they could easily be more happy without having to rely on a woman. MGTOW.

[–]Bluefoz 9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Of course they're scared of it, it is pretty scary to walk into something that could ruin your life at the behest of another person. Both emotionally, socially and economically is a divorce one of the worst things that could happen to a man, so there are clear, obvious reasons for men to be wary of marriage, as the only way to get divorced is if you first marry someone.

[–]TacoNinjaSkills 35 points36 points37 points 10 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

The infamous OK Cupid blog post: http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/

In an online dating study, men rating the attractiveness of women on roughly a bell curve. Women rated 80% of men as uglier than average!

[–]FastFourierTerraform 14 points15 points16 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Granted, it's no secret that there is a large gender imbalance in the user base of Ok Cupid. When you already have digital hunks clamoring for your attention, you probably feel ok rejecting everyone less than Fabio as "unattractive."

That's just one confounding variable, though. Men tend to have much higher diversity in the types of women they like, whereas women tend to go for one model, with very little variation (and a boatload of contradiction, i.e., he has to be a feminist, but he should earn more than me and treat me like a princess, he has to be sensitive, but I don't want to deal with his gross emotions)

[–]fullhalf 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

problem with online dating is, men can expend very little effort to get a woman into bed. so the top men will fuck even average women just to get off. it's not like that in real life. in real life, a man can spend a whole night and get just one girl so he's not going to dip below his league and waste time. so now all these average women are getting sex with top guys and think they're hot shit.

[–]boddah87 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I disagree. Online dating makes getting laid easier, and it doesn't take much effort. true! BUT the amount of effort isn't at all related to the attractiveness of the woman. The "top men" aren't dating down because they don't have to.

[–]fullhalf 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

so a 10 guy wouldn't fuck a 7? i highly doubt that. they also aren't dating down. they are fucking down. there is a big difference. obviously a 10 guy would never waste his time and resources to take care of a 7.

[–]FrigOffCyrus 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Most "top men" I know don't use online dating. Their status/looks/whatever do the work for them.

[–]boddah87 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I agree with that, I was talking about the top men among the online dating users

[–]FrigOffCyrus 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Okay, but I think this logic sort of falls on its face. So suppose the top 10% of men are not using online dating. That leaves just above average, average, and below average left. It makes sense that women would be more selective given the cream of the crop is not currently using online dating.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's not so different IRL for the top men. They will often fuck what falls into their lap to get off. They just won't commit to most of them. Then the women who fuck these "top men" mistakenly believe that they are in the same "league" as them, so they end up not bothering with any men who are actually in their "league".

[–]fullhalf 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

in real life, women who fall into your lap are near your social circle so it's not quite as blatant. god knows how many women these online dating guys go through in a month.

[–]TacoNinjaSkills 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I like to think the online dating user base factor gets balanced out. If one were to say that men on the site are only there because they can't get a date irl therefore are already the lower strata of attractiveness, then the same is true for the women on the site, thus still comparing apples to apples.

For the record, I do not think that is true, but it is a common critique people bring up.

I think I see what you are saying though. Many men find it easier to approach online as there is less cost of rejection. In real life, unattractive men are near invisible to attractive women unless they are being "creeps". If you place any stock in the 20% of men get 80% of the women (or was it 80% of the sex?) hypothesis, then women are used to seeing just the attractive men compete and not the entire actual pool of men, thus skewing their opinion.

[–]Kinbaku_enthusiast 33 points34 points35 points 10 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

"scared" of commitment? Or just not interested in it?

[–][deleted] 24 points25 points26 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

This is the telegraph. They have to make it about men being babies and scared.

[–]victorymonk 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Not fair. How many newspapers you know that have "men" sections? Especially compared to almost any newspaper having "women" section.

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points15 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"All sections of the paper are men sections" - feminist smirk

[–]xNOM 35 points36 points37 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

It's totally inconcievable why men wouldn't want to work their asses into an early grave picking up the slack for a low-libido-after-marriage "strong independent woman" with a low-stress "fulfilling career" who has a midlife crisis needing to "realize herself" and then takes half of the assets, and all of your kids, and continues bleeding your bank account dry from alimony. No sir, men are just scared of "strong independent women." /s

[–][deleted] 22 points23 points24 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Don't forget: After divorce the woman gets to keep the house and receives lifetime alimony payments all while fucking a new man in your old bed.

It just makes my blood boil thinking about that possibility.

[–]hyugafan 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Sometimes I think the muslims have the right of it when marriage is concerned.

[–]MRA-automatron-2kb 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Ironically the Swedes are importing them to make up for the declining birth rates of Swedes.

This boggles my mind.

[–]tallwheel 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

As long as they can learn to play metal like the Swedes do, they will be OK by me.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Islamic death metal?

[–]currentAlias 10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

They gotta' bludgeon us with that shaming language in the hopes we'll slink back to our assigned role of walking wallet.

[–]MRA-automatron-2kb 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Go back to the Plantation - slave ! (LOL)

[–]currentAlias 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes massa sorry massa.

(/s for those with no sense of humor)

[–]MRA-automatron-2kb 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

LOL !

[–]arnoldwhat 76 points77 points78 points 10 years ago* (39 children) | Copy Link

Women probably as a whole are too picky, but I think men are finally starting to realize that settling down is just a losing proposition. First, you have roughly a 40% chance of your marriage ending in divorce in the first 10 years. 60-70% of divorces in the US are initiated by women. So from day one the odds are stacked against you. So what happens after you get divorced? I think we all know what happens there. Best case scenario you get to keep some of your shit, see your kids occasionally and fork over half your pay check every month.

The tables have completely flipped from 50-60 years ago. Women have almost all of the power in a marriage. Child support, Alimony, the threat of arrest for domestic violence.

Men as a group are generally less emotional and more rational and are starting to see that it just isn't a good deal. There are countless potential downsides with very few rewards. Cohabitation with a women in most cases is a reasonable proposition, but marriage and children is just too risky.

edit: This isn't an attempt to call all women money grubbing whores, but rather a critical look at the unfair and biased system that largely men have created. I think while it may not be moral or "the right thing to do", its fair to expect a large majority of women to take advantage of this system. If they can leave a marriage with the house, the car, the kids and a check in the mail every month why wouldn't they? All of this speaks to how much society as a whole values men as husbands, fathers and providers - the only thing that counts is your checkbook.

[–]bertreapot 51 points52 points53 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree. Men used to be looked up to for working hard and supporting their families, now, no one gives a shit. If your wife wants to leave you and take half your stuff, everyone is ok with it. Then everyone looks down on the man cause he's now living in a crappy apartment and driving a cruddy car. Marriage isn't worth the risk.

[–]arnoldwhat 25 points26 points27 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

living in a crappy apartment and driving a cruddy car

Even that is ok compared to many men that have to move back in with their parents or a friend at 40-50 years old.

[–]fullhalf 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

literally know a guy who was a professional tax accountant. after his wife divorced him, he quit his job and now does like under the table tax preparation. he says he has more money now than when he had a real job even though he makes shit now. that's some real shit right there. he lives in a rundown house that i think he owns. this is a guy who told me about all the dirty tax loopholes and shit and there was nothing he could do in his divorce.

[–]blood4lyfe 28 points29 points30 points 10 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

Don't worry, they'll soon change it so that cohabitation counts as marriage.

[–]Hammy457 31 points32 points33 points 10 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Already does in Canada, it called Common Law Marriage. If you living with someone in a marriage like situation, after x amount of time as far as the law concerned you are married.

[–]hyugafan 12 points13 points14 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

As a canadian, this is one of the reasons I'm scared of commitment. I used yo be ok with just living with an SO, but now? Thanks for deciding for me, Gov't.

[–]GenesisRunner 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm hoping you did not vote for Trudeau's party. It's only going to get worse.

[–]MRA-automatron-2kb 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

AKA: Prince Mangina

[–]hyugafan 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I voted NDP.

[–]unbuttoned[🍰] 16 points17 points18 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Common Law marriage is in the US too, except for Louisiana. Woo Napoleonic Code!

[–]xNOM 9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It only exists in 9 states.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common-law_marriage_in_the_United_States

[–]EdinMiami 9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It is state by state and there is usually more to it than just living together.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thankfully no Common Law marriage in Michigan either.

[–]not_AtWorkRightNow 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think there's still more to it than that. I know a woman who got screwed on that cause after she split from her bf, she didn't get any of his stuff even though they lived together for like 10+ years and had 2 kids. I mean, she still gets lots of child support so I wouldn't say totally screwed, but just the thing about common law marriage was the point.

[–]fullhalf 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

holy shit. this makes me so mad. it's like you have no escape from it. what in the fuck? i'm sitting here thinking how i just won't marry and now i see this. it probably will come to the usa too once enough guys do it and women complain.

[–]girlwriteswhat 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

There are valid legal reasons for CLM to exist. Imagine if I lived with my bf for 30 years as if we were husband and wife. He gets sick and is in ICU. I can't visit him, because I'm not considered immediate family. I can't make medical decisions for him, because I'm not considered next of kin. When he dies, I am also cut completely out of his estate, and a distant nephew of his inherits everything. The house I've lived in for 30 years, contributing payments and upkeep, is sold out from under me by his nephew and I end up penniless and on the streets at age 50.

That's why common law marriage exists. If my bf dies, I'll inherit his estate. If I die, he'll inherit mine, and will have a better chance of becoming a legal guardian of my remaining minor child (I have no worries about him being able to be a cooperative and responsible guardian in conjunction with my children's dad and my parents).

There are other benefits to common law marriage, such as bereavement leave. This was a major concern among the LGBT community when fighting for gay marriage. Employers don't HAVE to give you time off to attend a roommate's funeral, after all.

Common Law Marriage is not the problem. The general treatment by the system of the marriage contract in general is the problem.

[–]Hammy457 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Not saying it doesn't have it uses. But all those things you mentioned could also be stated in your Will, and other legal documents.

[–]tallwheel 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Then he needs to make a will. What if he didn't necessarily want you to inherit his estate? The state shouldn't be the one to decide these things for an unmarried couple.

[–]HaberdasherFetishist 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's why common law marriage exists.

Or you could just get married.

[–]Mikeavelli 14 points15 points16 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I really strongly agree with you, especially the edit. I've been living with my girlfriend for over a year now, and we've been dating for three. Most people are wondering when we're going to get married, and while there's a variety of decent reasons we're holding off (we're both working and in grad school is the main one), the economics are a big part of that decision.

The economics of marriage are such that there's no benefit to couples with similar incomes (the intended 'marriage credit' to filing your taxes jointly actually turns into a 'marriage tax' if your incomes are close together), and the benefit to couples with unequal incomes isn't anywhere close to the potential cost of a divorce.

If we break up while dating, that's messy, but manageable. If we break up while married, that's thousands of dollars wasted, and I'd be paying alimony for years. Not because she's sacrificed her professional life for the sake of homemaking and raising kids, but because we're both working professionals and she chose a degree that isn't as lucrative.

Now, I say she's not like that, and mean it (I wouldn't be dating a woman I thought would be like that), but time, money, and kids change people. It's a huge risk that's not worth the benefits.

[–]currentAlias 8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Now, I say she's not like that, and mean it

None of them "were like that" right up until the moment they were...

[–]Mikeavelli -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Eh, you look at divorce rates, plenty of people have messy, money-grubbing breakups, but plenty of others don't. It's not a matter of avoiding marriage completely, just finding the right one.

[–]fullhalf 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

it's not money grubbing really. it's just the reality of it. when it finally happens, the women just realizes that she needs money to live now. she has to take it from where ever she can. she's not suddenly going to go out and work hard to make money.

[–]tallwheel 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Unicorn hunter. :)

But seriously, you were right when you said that "time, money, and kids change people." Even if you find "the right one", people change, and divorce can be costly and painful even if handled in the most civil manner possible by both parties. To me, it's just not worth the risk, even if you do find "the right one".

[–]not_AtWorkRightNow 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's a huge risk that's not worth the benefits.

This is the part that really rings true to me since I'm a little confused just as to what the benefits are for either party, man or woman. It seems like the main purpose for marriage now is for one party to lock the other one into an unbalanced relationship.

[–]arnoldwhat 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm glad that you have a positive but realistic perspective. As long as she knows why you don't want to get married yet (or ever) and is ok with it - you're golden, but don't underestimate pressure from her friends and family to get married. When her friends or family members bring it up in your company YOU need to let them know firmly but politely that you guys are more than happy with your relationship as it is, and only you two will decide when or if you get married.

[–]fullhalf 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Now, I say she's not like that, and mean it

you gotta look at the statistics. 50% of marriage where the woman has a university degree results in a divorce. would anyone bet the second half of their life on a coin flip? that's exactly what a marriage is. make her sign a prenuptial.

educated women are just too entitled and hard to satisfy. they want too much out of life when it's just not realistic. they think they're going to divorce at 40 and go out and find a decent guy now. maybe they know they wont but they just can't stand being submissive to their husband because they are too free and entitled now.

i just watched the godfather again and seeing those submissive women, it was such a turn on.

[–]ForeverIndex 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Do you have a link to those percentages? I'm not trying to question your integrity, I have friends who questions me about this subject all the time, and want proof to back it up.

[–]fullhalf 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

you made me look at wikipedia divorce rates and found this hilarious tidbit

A 2011 study at the University of Iowa found that a woman's loss of virginity before age 18 was correlated with a greater number of occurrences of divorce within the first 10 years of marriage.

are there even any teen girls today who haven't lost their virginity by 18?

[–]arnoldwhat 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There are lots of sources, some that are conflicting. My advice is to do what I did - do some Googling and interpret the data yourself.

[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

It needs to said: White folk aren't making more White kids. See Angela Merkel's commentary on replacing the European population with more prolific progenitors, namely from cultures that aren't decimated by this social disease. White people are going to debate themselves out of existence. No worries, I've got my downvote umbrella at the ready.

[–]arnoldwhat 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

What does that have to do with mens rights?

[–]Amorne3 8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Maby he read it as men's whites?

[–]arnoldwhat -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There may be some truth to the argument, but it is not at all relevant to our conversation. Personally, white people dying off as a race is so far down the list of potential things for me to worry about it might as well be non existent. I guess some people care about that sort of stuff.

[–]fullhalf 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

he just wanted to bring it up somewhere and this was the closest he could get to it.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's actually much more simple than that. Populations start having less kids as they become more affluent. It's shown across cultures whether they are white or not. Look at Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, and Korea. Less financially well off immigrants tend to have more kids. And if those cultures become more affluent, they will have the same "social diseases" as well.

[–]fullhalf -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

men used to have certain powers in a marriage like having sex when they wanted and being able to slap a woman to shut her up. women like to keep arguing forever and it drives men crazy. now they can withhold sex and mouth off. what's the point?

[–]arnoldwhat -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

deleted What is this?

[–]fullhalf 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

but blatant misogyny

shut the fuck up.

[–]ExpendableOne 19 points20 points21 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Funny how these lists of turn-offs and deal breakers often seem directly related to personal entitlements and gender expectations that women have about men, and standards that they often completely do not meet themselves. And yet men are called the "privileged" ones.

[–]TrialsAndTribbles 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

High value men are privileged, it's just there are very few of them.

[–]ExpendableOne 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

And, yet, "high value" men are privileged because women value them with very little to no diversification. Ironic that men are considered to be "privileged" by feminists, if not simply for the fact that all other men are invisible to them.

[–]fullhalf 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

seems the freer women are, the more they go right back to the caveman days. it used to be that alpha male and his buddies got to fuck most of the women in the tribe. then civilization happened and men cracked down on that. now women are free and the same shit is happening.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Most of those men had to work hard in order to earn that "privilege". It wasn't just handed to them.

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points18 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

There is a vast disparity between what men want and what modern women want. A modern woman wants a loving, caring, good-looking, successful, rich man that is friends with all her besties and that "brings joy"--i.e. feelz--to her life.

A man wants a semi-good looking, responsible, RESPECTFUL, non-skanky, FAITHFUL, TRUSTWORTHY woman to raise a family with and who will stand by his side in the long term when shit hits the fan; and someone who will fuck more than once a month after marriage.

[–]Upvote_To_The_Left 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

This is truth.

The myth that men are promiscuous sex crazied deviants is such horseshit. If a man was given a choice between having one trustworthy, respectable, smart, nurturing decent looking women who loves to have sex. Or multiple shallow short term partners with zero connection he will almost always choose the former.

Yet society refuses to think this.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I would agree to the point that there are a lot more men out there who are satisfied with this arrangement than society often gives credit for. But, let's be honest, men's evolutionary instinct is to spread his seed with as many women as possible. Married men will desire variety too eventually. Luckily most married men can keep their desires in check well enough to remain faithful.

[–]Upvote_To_The_Left 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think that biological need relies heavily on the environment. If a man is in an environment with few women, he will pair bond. if there are more women than men, he will lean towards promiscuity.

thats just my experience.

[–]fullhalf -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The myth that men are promiscuous sex crazied deviants is such horseshit.

it's not horse shit. it's true. it's just that it is very difficult for most men to get sex from a lot of women. so they just don't do it.

[–]skekze 13 points14 points15 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Money doesn't matter til it does. Everyone wants a barbie house. It's unsustainable.

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points15 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

A further problem for picky women is that “good” men who haven’t partnered off realise they are in a seller’s market, so they become commitment-phobic.

Or it could just be, strangely enough - that people object to being objectified, whether that be "you're a good provider and I look forward to spending your alimony checks three years from now" or "nice tits."

[+][deleted] 10 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]tallwheel 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

This is actually the trap that a lot of men fall into, though. Say he hasn't had a whole lot of luck with women in his 20's, he has a pretty stable career going at 30, and suddenly he finds himself getting more attention from the opposite sex. Women who wouldn't have given him the time of day suddenly want long-term relationships with him, with marriage definitely on the table. He can't believe his fortune! He finds a woman his age who still looks fairly attractive and eventually ties the knot. But is a woman who never would have given him the time of day in his 20's going to remain "in love" with him till death? I wouldn't bet on it if I were him. Hope he was at least smart enough to get a prenup.

[–]forscienceyeah 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

That's why you don't marry and you just date the mid 20's girls that like older men, unless you find that special unicorn.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Good advice, but unfortunately most guys in their 30's are not able to do this. There are girls in their 20's that like older men, but the men still have to be attractive, in shape, and have money. Usually girls who date significantly older guys will expect the guy to pay for everything. It's not a bad trade, though, if the guy can afford it, and still much safer financially than tying the knot with someone.

[–]forscienceyeah 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

if you've invested in yourself

Yes, I think its better than the status-quo.

[–]electricalnoise 11 points12 points13 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Once their youthful attractiveness starts to fade, they realize they're turning into their mothers, but they aren't mothers yet. Or they realize the reasons they liked their husbands 10 years ago when they were both kids are the reasons they can't stand them now because they went for the "cool" guy instead of choosing wisely, and now they'd like a do-over. It's a real wake up call to a lot of women.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Or they realize the reasons they liked their husbands 10 years ago when they were both kids are the reasons they can't stand them now because they went for the "cool" guy instead of choosing wisely

But the reverse is also true. Around 40, wives who "chose wisely" and settled begin to cheat on their "boring" husbands with the nearest Chad at the gym.

[–]FastFourierTerraform 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Grass is always greener.

And that transcends gender, it's just that the cards are stacked so that women can act upon that urge with impunity.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Men rarely leave because "the grass is greener."

I swear, some women look at marriage as just an excuse to have a big party and achieve status. The actual vows/promises have no meaning. Or, they may mean something AT THE TIME, but it seems the vast majority of women are quite fine with saying "oh, I don't feel that way anymore, I am leaving."

Do people even contemplate that marriage is supposed to be an irrevocable bond for life?

[–]currentAlias 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

marriage is supposed to be an irrevocable bond for life

Ignore what it was in the past, by the current rules it isn't and there's no point pretending otherwise.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I am interested in exploring legal mechanisms by which 2 like-minded people can contract around existing law and legally bind themselves to a lifelong marriage, with whatever opt-out terms they want (infidelity/abuse, etc.)

[–]CK_America 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

This made me feel better. Because I've been aware that it's not until 40 (in America) that the gender balance flips back in favor of men.

At the same time, I've turned into a cynic, believing that most women are useless scum. They aren't going to be there for men, they just work against them to take things. Nor have any useful/attractive traits because they've never really had to compete or try. Those garbage frames tend to sick around too. Male disposability, solipsism, active avoidance of objectivity to validate a subjective perspective. The quality is still poor, even though the quantity is starting to level out.

What do you think about all this Mr. Science?

[–]Bluefoz 11 points12 points13 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

"... I've turned into a cynic, believing that most women are useless scum"

That's sad. I get why you ended up there, but you have to believe and trust in the fact that "scumness" is something that transcends gender, race, social and economic stature. How many times havn't you been treated like dirt by your fellow man, and how many times have a woman not shown kindness towards you.

I'm not saying there aren't real, structural factors at play here, but women aren't worse than men and vice versa. Either we are good people or not, regardless of gender.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm going to have to disagree that the ratio of "scummy" people belonging to either gender is equal.

The fact is that women have been systemically coddled and pandered to for decades now, while also being told that they are somehow uniquely oppressed for lacking a penis and facing similar challenges that men have always faced. So instead of recognizing the social and economic upper hand they have been dealt; they take the "obvious" stance that due to oppression and systemic disadvantages (lol), they are justified in worrying only about themselves.

The effect of these actions and attitudes on a macroscopic scale has resulted in women being generally more narcissistic and less able to relate to the struggles of the average man, since, after all, what problems could men possibly face that compare to the daily struggle of being a womyn.

We have essentially made women the golden children of our society and they, in general, suffer from the same personality disorders that most children who are given their every wish and told they are the most special person ever develops. Women, to a lesser but non-negligible extent, have adopted similar traits to the children of the uber wealthy, such as Alice Walton who expected and received a slap on the wrist for fatalities from her DUIs and Saudi princes who can sexually assault women in the US with near immunity. Namely the arrogance and audacity of their actions from a lack of meaningful consequences (eg. violence with immunity), the gross sense of entitlement to the fruits of others labor (alimony, female quotas), and a total disconnect or lack of empathy for those who are less privileged and lack the support to get back on their feet.

Now that's not to say that women are inherently worse people than men, in fact I'm of the opinion that we would see a similar uptick in male narcissism if the current gender biases were flipped. But the biases are not, so the average guy who expects what many women do must either make enough money to buy that sort of special treatment, or can expect to be derided and ignored. So men learn that they must either become self-sufficient or learn to get along, while women learn that the world owes them a comfortable existence on their own terms and to scream misogyny whenever someone points out their privileges. In short, women tend to adopt self serving and manipulative attitudes that make them poor companions simply because there is little incentive to change.

TL;DR: Women are no inherently worse than men, but our collective actions and attitudes as a society poison the well during their development and creates emotionally stunted adults. This leaves a relatively small but constant cohort of awesome, egalitarian women and a large cohort of increasingly shitty women with mainstream attitudes.

[–]CK_America 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I would say you nailed it. Thank you for articulating this.

Funny, I spend my time fighting oligarchy, not this paradigm we're talking about. It's just been catching my attention the past few years. Yet I never made the correlation between the attitudes/behaviors I've seen from the rich and women. Seems obvious now.

I agree that it would be a very similar if the roles were reversed, but that's still a tough call for me. The details would be different.

How do you think men should progress forward knowing this perspective? Simmering in bitterness is a waste of my time, and as you said, there isn't any incentive for women to care. So it makes no sense to have any faith in them changing things. Do you have any advice? Or additional perspectives? What do you do?

[–]MRA-automatron-2kb 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

A woman once stopped her soccer mom van to ask me if I needed help getting my car out of the snow on the road. (I'm in Canada).

That shut up my complaints about women for a year LOL.

[–]Bluefoz 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

We must not allow the bitterness that infects the vast majority of the feminist movement to similarly plant its seeds in our cause too. We have to be better than them. So yeah, small acts of kindness can sometimes really clear things up.

[–]CK_America 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You're describing a framing issue. One extreme being that because of some metric like race, gender, etc, people are a certain way. Both everyday stereotypes and statistical/scientifically verifiable traits are found here.

The other end being that these precursor traits don't effect people and we're all individuals. It's just choices that happen to stem from specific groups. So therefore it's unfair to treat groups certain ways or hold certain perspectives against them because of the actions of a few.

I'm not blindly following either. I'm very conscious of how I frame my perspective on the world. I've also tended to be on the equallity non stereotyping side most of my life, favoring it for it's moral value. Even when challenging that, I try to hone in on data, or an understanding of where those steriotypes come from, and why they exist. Empathy, different perspectives, and understanding what causes behavior is really important. So don't assume that ignorance is what's driving this. I recognize the issues with this shift toward hate, and don't particularly favor it.

None the less, this is where I've landed, and I haven't exactly seen any evidence that puts women in a positive light. Maybe it's because there are so many women that only put men in a bad one. Maybe precursor traits, genetics, and the environment dictate a lot more of our behavior then we'd like to believe. Maybe it simply was bad luck with personal experiences. Maybe I'm being too emotional about it, idk, I'll keep thinking and working on it, but so far that seems to only be validating my perspective more and more.

[–]Bluefoz 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Thank you for your eloquent and well thought-out reply.

I didn't want to assume anything about your motives or reasons for harbouring this kind of ill-will, but I did feel the need to speak up and point out to you, that feeling this way is, as you say, arguably both illogical and immoral. Again, as you say, it is difficult to control how we feel about certain issues, and as I said, I think I understand where these emotions of yours and your "shift towards hate" is coming from, but I implore you to not let the bitterness and anger shroud your obviously wonderfully intelligent mind.

I also believe that you, of course, are familiar with the logical fallacy of confirmation bias, and I am also sure that you are aware of the fact that this can lead to a particularly nasty and incoherent conclusion - not unlike the ones we denounce feminists for making time and time again. I again implore you to not be narrow minded and to continue to look at the data, and not introduce anecdotal evidence of your own.

I firmly believe that a sound and empathetic discourse is the way for men to receive equal treatment. We must divert from the path of so many feminists and base our argumentation on what hurts the most their shrill and hollow cries that try deafen the sound of the increasing number of men who feel violated and placed at a disadvantage because of their gender, that is, to base our argumentation on data, logic, sympathy, and a need and want for equal treatment.

Keep trucking, my friend!

[–]CK_America 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It is an immoral frame because it adds negativity to the pool, but that's all a relative spectrum anyways. Some would argue that it's moral. I'm not, I would not say it's illogical though. In fact the opposite. It's the result of viewing things as they are with a clear mind, and I'm being enraged by what I'm seeing. Women are not egalitarian by any measure, a pocket of them say they are, and a pocket of those actually put in the effort to be egalitarian. It's a surprisingly difficult thing to achieve. Most just take without any real regard or thought it seems. Validating their actions based on how they feel. Though it is demanded of men to be equal if not subservient under a stricter frame of fairness. Rarely would that be known to women, because most women only research their own side, but will claim to fight for equality. Garbage people with garbage ideologies, that's what I find when I try to find any moral substance with women. Facts and fairness are not found. Hypocrisy and biases are.

Confirmation bias is relavant and I do what I can to keep an eye on it, but it is also dismissive to my perspective, to elude to that being the cause. It just assumes that I have deluded myself. Which all in all, is a pretty fair assumtion considering, so I just wanted to get that out of the way. This isn't a framing issue. I'm fed up about what is actually going on, and I'm not to sure what to do about it just yet.

You seem to want the perspective your defending to be the right or correct choice as you think I do mine. Have you taken the time to consider your own biases? I'm sure you have since you brought it up earlier, but I thought it wise to mention. Also I would say that data isn't everything. It's a foundational piece of having an accurate perception of reality, but you need anecdotal evidence/personal experience to formulate theories and understand the different ways to look at the world/data, it often helps with context, and learning the nuance of the impact that things have. Seemingly small things can be big, and vise versa. Then you use that data to validate one theory/perspective you have over another. There's just to much going on in this situation to try to quantify everything. This is about the human condition in a complicated and new environment after all.

As for the discourse, I'm pretty sure they don't care. They don't have any incentive to, and what I've gathered is that women will regularly scoff at the very thought or mention of mens rights. If they actually care at all rhat is. Try it for yourself, I bet you'll change your perspective pretty quickly through that experiment.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"Picky" - is today's euphemism for "spinster"?

[–]Dnile1000BC 15 points16 points17 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

I don't understand, why is this a crisis? Men are not getting laid? There's now porn, various toys and hookers. A much more cost effective solution than maintaining a girlfriend or a wife and much less risk.

If women are picky that's their choice to make. Don't pretend it's a crisis though. There is no crisis, women say they don't need men? Men will just walk away.

A woman needs a man like fish needs a bicycle right?

[–]TheLonelySnail 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Not advocating the lifestyle, but I remember someone asking Charlie Sheen why he paid for sex (with prostitutes) , he said something like; "I don't pay for sex, I pay for them to leave."

Unfortunately this is where a lot of men are at. Your life can be torpedoed by a woman who steals your used condom and impregnates herself! It can be ruined by a wife of 12 years who just decides she isn't into you anymore. It's dangerous to be in that position.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

A lot of MGTOW men are happy to live that way. The problem is that the majority of men are not like that, and quickly become lonely and depressed without the validation of a woman in their lives. That's why so many of them either end up committing to a woman who he is better off without, or end up living a life of misery wishing for attention from the opposite sex that will never come. It's sad. I wish more could find MGTOW and learn that a man doesn't necessarily need a woman to be happy - especially after he gets older and his sex drive goes down.

[–]MaestroLogical 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Birth Rates are declining significantly

If this trend continues, and it shows no signs of stopping, the US will be facing a generational imbalance.

[–]Dnile1000BC 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

If this trend continues, and it shows no signs of stopping, the US will be facing a generational imbalance.

All this is true. However, I don't see any solution to this problem. Men and women shouldn't be forced into relationship with each other if they don't want to.

If this means the collapse of western society then hopefully we have recorded enough information to prevent the next civilisation to rise from our ashes from going down the feminism road again.

[–]CivilEntgineer 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

That's fine and all for our generation.

That's a terrible thing for our species.

[–]Dnile1000BC 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

That's a terrible thing for our species.

Our species will be fine. Remember when Rome fell? The rest of the world still lived. Sure it plunged western civilisation into 500 years of darkness but other cultures and other societies survived.

Hopefully we keep enough records of what feminism has done that other societies won't repeat our mistakes.

[–]CivilEntgineer 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

True, at this point we are pretty much the guinea pigs for our future.

Time to sit back and watch the world burn.

[–]MRA-automatron-2kb 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The wild animals will be happy.

[–]CivilEntgineer 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's true, maybe feminists are starting to realize how badly humans are destroying our planet so they figured the best way to fix it is to remove the humans.

thisiswhyineedfeminism

[–]herewegoaga1n 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

I outsourced, and I gotta tellya guys. It's wonderful.

Let'em be someone else's pain in the ass/cuck/divorce rape.

[–]Upvote_To_The_Left 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I had my first foray into this recently, and it was great. But you have to have the resources to be able to afford a $300/hour appointment ;)

[–]herewegoaga1n 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Mine was free. Weird how that works out. Never pay.

[–]Upvote_To_The_Left 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

wait are we talking about escorts here? because I was.

[–]alclarkey 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I was under the impression he was talking about foreign/non-western women.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What do you mean outsourced?

[–]throwwaway2057205 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Me too bro, happy as a fucking clam.

[–]Hasmond 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

cuckqueen

A cuckqueen isn't a woman who cucks her husband, a cuckqueen is a woman who gets aroused from having her husband fuck other women.

[–]Ovendice 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This means you hate women. Anything that is critical of women instantly means you 'hate' women. Playground banter, that's how Feminists roll.

[–]poloppoyop 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

MGTOW send their regards.

[–]Alkomb[🍰] 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

& if a guy gets a "Prenup", the woman will be like: "Oh, so you don't trust me?", or: "You're having doubts about your marriage?". (Or whatever.)

[–]TheLonelySnail 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

Or the judge will disavow the prenup because it was 'under duress' or some bs.

[–]McFeely_Smackup 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I have a friend who is a family law attorney, he says the thing with prenups is you HAVE to give them the right amount without giving too much. If you don't give enough, the judge will throw it out as an "unconsionable agreement" (I have no idea how to spell that word). So they try to figure the minimum amount to pay the little woman for the right to support her, then tack on a little more to make the judge happy, and just hold your nose and take your medicine.

Knowing that, I can't imagine why any...ANY man would go through the prenup process and still agree to get married. Here's the doc that shows how fucked you will be at divorce...why would you sign that?

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Fascinating. So you're saying that any prenup that gives enough to the woman in order to be not thrown out is already a pretty raw deal for the man?

[–]McFeely_Smackup 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

That's how I understand it.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's depressing as hell, but good to know. Another reason why "Just get a prenup and you'll be fine" is bad advice. Like you said, though, at least you know how fucked you are before you agree to get married.

[–]Alkomb[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So true, it almost hurt.
59 minutes ago, neat.:o! (Sorry.)

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

This is why "Western society" with the current gender set up is doomed. Look at Japan, Hungary, Singapore, South Korea, Germany etc. All have birthrates around the 1.3 mark. All have contracting populations which over the next 20 years will be amplified.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

There is a portion of guys in Japan who are considered just plain unmarriageable (and undateable too, for that matter). There's a similar group of men in Western countries too, and they are becoming larger and more noticeable. Women have certain standards and men do not meet them either because they can't, or they're finding it too much trouble to be worth the effort.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

The gender dynamic and social problems in Japan are quite different to what we have in the West. There are some superficial similarities but I would be wary of lumping Japan in as a "western" nation and drawing any meaningful parallels.

Sarkeesian(?) was right when she said that feminism doesn't exist in Japan. But they certainly have a set of problems of their own.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

IMO, as far as the issue of "unmarriageable" men goes, Japan is a similar situation to the West. Biggest difference is Japan is further along in the progression. The dating market in the West will come to look more like Japan in the coming decades.

Feminism isn't even a necessary element in the equation. It makes women have a more entitled attitude, sure, but it doesn't really change the fact that women are all hypergamous. And they don't want anything to do with men who sit at home playing video games all day.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You could be right that it's just further along the same process, but I'm not totally convinced of that.

Japan has cultural issues with women being discouraged from continuing to work after marriage, much moreso than in the West, to the point where I've heard stories of newly married women being quietly let go from their jobs for that reason alone. It's not seemly to have married women working for you.

That wouldn't be all bad necessarily, but the economy there is stagnant and has been for years and years so work that pays enough to support a family on a single income just isn't attainable for the vast majority of men there. If you feel that all you'll be able to do is let your family down time and again, maybe it's better not to start one, right? And if that's off the table, might as well focus on your own hobbies and resign yourself to it.

You could just as easily be right though - it's possible that even if the cultural reasons are different the result will be the same. Guess we'll find out soon enough, huh? :/

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

gruffbillygoat: i think you are right. The fear of culture change and foreigners is huge in Japan. Females are so well protected, you are not allowed to have a depiction of a virgina. I think Japanese women are so well protected that it has held them back and they have not embraced feminism as seen in the west. My guess is that Japanese men and women are both shunning relationships and children.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/15/vagina-artist-arrest-japan_n_5588664.html

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You ,may be right but the position of the female in Japanese society is very much one of supporting a husband. Culturally women are seen as carers more so than the west

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Traditionally speaking, I'd agree with you, but as you know there are quite a few women who end up staying unmarried here now and working for life. Attitudes have already changed a lot by necessity.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Totally agree. Japan is very strange country.

[–]Rtg327gej 8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Stay single. Marriage is a dying institution.

[–]Ovendice 12 points13 points14 points 10 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Over half of the reason women used to marry a man before say, the 1980s-90s, was to have a provider and most likely she wouldn't have to work a job. Now women just rely on the government for food and shelter and pays all the bills. Even most single women who work are still supplemented by some form of welfare. So instead of having to charm a man and be nice to one, they just have the government FORCE men to pay women to live for free. (Men pay 75% of taxes).

[–]fullhalf -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Even most single women who work are still supplemented by some form of welfare.

this isnt true in the slighest.

[–]Ovendice -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Yep, it is. You're just ignorant.

[–]tallwheel 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

OK. Enlighten us. How is this true? Do most single working women have children? What sort of welfare are "most single women" receiving?

[–]Ovendice 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Free food, utilities paid for, free housing, free college, free healthcare, free cell phones, and then of course 'disability.' And then her little part time job at Walgreens pays for all her clothes and meals at expensive restaurants, vacations, car, etc. Just type in 'Government aid for women' into Google and learn all about it. Men need not apply.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm skeptical. I googled like you said, but I only found aid for female business owners and single mom's. I'm gonna need some proof that any able-bodied adult can apply for these things just by having a vagina.

[–]Ovendice -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Haha Whaaa? "I'm gonna need some proof that any able-bodied adult can apply for these things just by having a vagina." You just found two examples of female only government aid. And anyone without a vagina need not apply. And you only found aid for "single mothers and female business owners?" That is HUGE. Over half of all mothers are single and if I could get aid for starting a business that would make a tremendous difference in my life like it would for millions of men. You act like it's nothing. Keep looking, you'll find plenty more aid for women only.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I am well aware that there are lots of aid that only women qualify for. What I am skeptical about is whether "most" single women are receiving aid, and you haven't provided any proof of that. I would be more than willing to admit you are correct if you could provide evidence.

[–]fullhalf -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

lol. what a fucking retarded response. good job.

[–]Ovendice 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

No, not knowing that most single women are supplemented by some form of welfare and government assistance is fucking retarded.

[–]fullhalf -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

uhh. no you fucking idiot. replying without supporting your semi-hyperbole statement with sources and simply claiming the other part is ignorant is the stupidest fucking shit. you are infinitely more stupid by not realizing this.

[–]Ovendice -4 points-3 points-2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Hahaha Silly retard. More than half of all mothers are single and virtually all of them are on welfare/subsidies/free rent/free food/free utilities/ and then the rest of single women are either on disability or some other 'women only' programs and that isn't even including all of the billions in charities that are strictly for women. Everyone knows that, where in the fuck have you been? Living up your ass?

Feminism failed. Women aren't willing to work hard enough or choose jobs that can pay all of the bills so they depend on the government. Try investigating the actual world you live in sometime and turn off the TV, it's making you stupid.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Holy fuck id love to live in your world. Just making up statistics to prove your point regardless of reality

[–]DillipFayKick 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I actually think this might be good for men. It might force us to find other means of attaining a positive image of ourselves (besides how valuable we are to women). I think legalization of prostitution would go a long way in terms of the sexual side of things. That might actually stop a shooting rampage or two as well.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

More men need to find MGTOW and realize that they can be happy without a woman.

[–]Trail_of_Jeers 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Seems to me that article is heavily loaded against men. See, men are lazy and disheveled, it's not that women are too picky!

Or maybe he just buried the lead. I stopped reading when it became a man-bash.

[–]ThePigmanAgain 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I just read a similar thing in the GaGa and, of course, the education gap was seen as a problem not because less men are getting access to high-paying jobs, but because women can't find educated husbands.

You made your beds, girls. Now sleep in them -- alone.

[–]TheDude41 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Good.

Screw 'em.

Chivalry is shit.

[–]Ovendice 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Meanwhile it's women in the U.S. and U.K. who have gone horrendously downhill. Butch, tatted up, overweight, insanely whorish- fucking everything that moves, drunk, ignorant of everything, all the charm of diarrhea, mentally ill, completely unaccountable, lazy, confrontational, hate men, amoral, in debt and only working part time with a worthless degree in some social science and no future at all. And the irony? Fifty years of Feminism made them that way! GRRRL POWER! The World's Biggest Fucking Losers.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They've tailored themselves to be attractive as pump-n-dumps, and then act surprised when they can't get commitment.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

"Crisis." What's in crisis, exactly?

[–]McFeely_Smackup 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

the gravy train.

[–]stopyourBull 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

round and round they go until they hit the wall

now that her pretty face is gone she wants to wash your draws

your draws she said your draws she said she wants them to be nice and clean

the one condition that comes with that is you have to buy a ring

a ring she wants a ring she wants now that she's big and flabby

but a father she said you must play because her kids need daddy

[–]SupremeAuthority 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No. I'm fine with letting them all die alone.

[–]Rockbottom503 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Just about every woman I know is like this! 'Don't mess with me, I'm a strong, independent woman who earns her own money and pays her own way! .......what do you mean, you want me to pay for myself on a date - don't you know how to treat a lady! You obviously wouldn't be able to take care of me' guy doesn't call - 'he was obviously intimidated by me'

[–]Riddle0219 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm from southern Europe, so marrying and having kids is the norm here, it's hard to find a woman who eventually doesn't want to get married and have kids - I think couples make many mistakes that lead to failure, namely marrying too soon and picking the wrong partner. It's hard to find a good woman these days, but they're still out there. Women are indeed very picky, it's like they want to be independent and strong but at the same time they still think men should do this or that part of the work and come in handy.

[–]njskypilot 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

My hand is as good as ANY woman! it does what I say, and it doesn't talk back!

[–]hyugafan 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

except on meth, then it tends to want to discuss the duality of good and evil while telling your feet to shut up about how cold it is down there.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Also, it doesn't require foreplay, and can become any woman you can imagine or display on your computer screen!

[–]njskypilot 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

you get it! : ) : )

[–]Lrellok 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

http://i.imgur.com/SY1FWbj.jpg

And whose fualt is it that mens wages have cratered? Seriosly, if you hammer mens wages into the ground for five decades then sit crying into your martini's that there are no highly paid men to marry, your either a hypocrit or a dumbfuck.

Also, what happened to all those women who wanted house husbands... Where did they disappear off to...

[–]ttnorac 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

They can be as picky as they want. I don't mind uping my game. Technically speaking, a smarter, stronger, and more attractive male obtaining a mate is better for our species. It's the other half evolution.

That being said, men are dropping out of the game because most of the women are getting remarkably lazy on their end. That combined with the broken family court system creates a world of lonely women and men.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Technically speaking, a smarter, stronger, and more attractive male obtaining a mate is better for our species. It's the other half evolution.

We're turning to a tournament mating system, where 20% of the males are fucking most of the women. Traditional marriage was instated to keep the other 80% happy, but now that traditional marriage is dead, the bottom 80% is just getting burned, and most of the women aren't getting the commitment they desire either.

[–]ttnorac 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Got to say, that works for me. We just need to make sure only the top 20% of women are having children.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

That's not how it works. Women can get laid more easily, so the majority of women will keep having children regardless of what "league" they're in. Men are the suitors and women are the choosers. Men are the genetic wildcard. That's how it's always been.

[–]ttnorac 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Not exactly. Let's say the top 20% of men have their pick of the litter. They would not waste their time with the bottom 50%. So, women won't advance as fast but advance none the less. How often do you see a handsome man with an ugly woman?

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

For hooking up, not "relationships", a man will often fuck a woman who is below him in attractiveness. You may not ever see them together, because it is not a lasting relationship. He doesn't want to be "seen" with her. He just wants to meet her at his place or a hotel, at night.

[–]ttnorac 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

An accidental baby? They'll settle down with the good stock, and use protection/abortion with the lower half.

[–]gta0012 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's not a "trade down" a lot of women, even men, think way to highly of themselves. Friends and family telling them how perfect and amazing they are, don't settle for a 6 your a 10! When in reality they are a 6 themselves. No one wants to recognize that they aren't exactly top shelf.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]ConvertsToMetric 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Mouseover or click to view the metric conversion for this comment

[–]FrigOffCyrus 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Alright boys, back to the pile

[–]apullin 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You should visit the SF bay area, where the pickiness is entirely justified. There are many hundreds of thousands more men here than women. OKCupid profiles openly state that people who are < 6ft tall shouldn't even both responding. Women are all generally polyamorous because there are just so many men available.

[–]EdinMiami -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I'm a bit of a romantic so I do think there are perfectly fine women out there for me (and for all of you by extension). The problem is finding them.

I don't think online dating is the answer. Women have too many choices and their expectations become ridiculous.

I think the best way is to just try to get involved with your local community in whatever form that takes. Grow your network of people.

And of course, protect yourself if you ever decide to get married.

[–]throwwaway2057205 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Some of us don't want to be that social all the time. I'd say I'm half way between being an introvert/extrovert, but I think it's exhausting going out and drinking all the time. Maybe it's because I'm getting older, but I just want someone to come home to and do things together or with a small group of people on the weekends. I'm busy enough as it is, I don't have extra time to bend over backwards and kiss some entitled woman's ass.

I think it's obvious from this article that what women want is commitment from a very small percentage of men that fit an impossible set of criteria. With studies showing that 80% of women chase 20% of men, that's just baseline physical attractiveness. If you throw in their education, salary, and prestige, the number of eligible men falls off the charts.

[–]EdinMiami 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Well the first rule is always go with what works for you. I've had some success getting dates online but the problem I find is that I'm having to lower my standards just to get a response. Even where I try to interact with those few women, I get this feeling that they are doing me a favor.

So for me, I've just decided to try and go old school. We'll see how it goes /shrug

[–]throwwaway2057205 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah, I won't lower my standards and it has been fine in the past. Not like I was looking for a 10 at the time, but I reliably got attention from 7s and a few 8s. I've been lifting weights for years and have a low BF%, so I'm not into fat chicks or anything like that.

Hope it works out for you.

[–]EdinMiami 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And for you o/

[–]speedisavirus 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

online dating is the answer

How is increasing your pool of potential candidates a bad thing. Most would argue finding "the one" is a numbers game. You could never meet them if you miss opportunity. You can use online dating in conjunction with building social circles in your life.

[–]EdinMiami -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm pretty sure I answered that with the very next sentence.

[+]bougabouga -7 points-6 points-5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Who cares if some women are picky?

[–]FastFourierTerraform 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

feminist journalists, apparently

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