Should male feminists just shut the hell up?

KrisK_lvin · 2015-06-08T10:39:05+00:00

This must be more of that evidence that 'Feminism helps men too' I keep hearing about ...

scdi · 2015-06-08T11:44:55+00:00

More like male feminists should seek treatment for their Stockholm Syndrome.

Blutarg · 2015-06-08T13:12:26+00:00

So, does it? Are men's voices as equally important to women's in feminism? And can men even be feminists?

No, says newly retired gender politics academic Sheila Jeffreys, a leading figure of 1970s-style radical feminism.

She says men can be "pro-feminist but not feminists".

"Men do not like to be left out and many think they know better than women even about distinctively women's issues," she says. "Women daring to organise around their issues without men does actually threaten the power relations of male dominance, and this is why it is crucially important."

Professor Jeffreys likens this to trade unionism, saying members of "oppressed" groups must be able to meet and articulate their concerns without fear of being surveilled or interrupted.

If you believe that men have been the oppressors of women throughout history, and that sympathy and mutual appreciation between men and women is part of false consciousness, then you have to conclude that feminist women should be constantly renewing their suspicions of male colleagues lest they get used to them and end up liking them, and that men in the movement should spend much of their time renewing their guilt in self-criticism sessions.

These feminists are playing out their hatred of the entire male sex on the men who happen to be in the room with them. And those men are confused because they thought that being feminists would either make them one of the good guys, or would allow them to project their individual badness onto all men instead of having the badness of all men projected onto them.

Funny to watch, though. Couldn't happen to nicer guys...

I fully expect Mr Merryweather to spend the next decade of his life agonising over whether he is a 'feminist' or an 'ally'."

And then finally realise that feminism doesn't accept allies. Alliance is a reciprocal thing. You couldn't even call it serfhood or vassalage, because in the feudal system lords had some reciprocal obligations to their serfs and vassals. What feminists demand is unconditional surrender. Anything less is oppression.

rottingchrist · 2015-06-08T09:58:13+00:00

It's really cringeworthy to see men still so desperate to be feminists even after told in no uncertain terms, multiple times, and over a long period of time by prominent feminists that they aren't eligible to be.

Ted8367 · 2015-06-08T10:33:34+00:00

Professor Jeffreys ... has a suggestion for men who would be feminists ... they should "discuss" ... "why, for instance, do some men find it hard even to imagine being attracted to women who do not depilate".

Seriously, male feminists! What are you waiting for? This very important topic needs immediate discussion!

"This is an excellent question

sez the good Perfesser

and men need to talk through this on their own. Women should not have to listen to it."

That's either an elaborate fuck off, or it's serious academic feminism as usual. Difficult to tell, really.

Inertbert · 2015-06-08T12:19:25+00:00

Is this where they tell us that feminism is about equality of the sexes?

chavelah · 2015-06-08T09:29:08+00:00

Feminists only respect men who don't respect them.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2015-06-08T14:47:06+00:00

Professor Jeffreys is cut from the same cloth as Dworkin. The fact that Third Wavers, who once tried to claim Dworkin and co were "the radicals, don't listen to them" are now totally accepting the legacy of that kind of feminism, truly says everything.

Leinadro · 2015-06-08T13:54:57+00:00

Honestly I feel sorry for male feminists. Female feminists often say "if you believe ib equality then you're a feminist" when met with people saying they dont ID as such.

But as we can see there is more to it being a feminist than what you believe.

Simply out feminists want to have it both ways. They want the credit for the work men do by claiming they are male feminists but dont want the men themselves.

Its a lot like how some white people want every part of black culture except for the actual being black part.

rg57 · 2015-06-08T10:25:30+00:00

This is where feminists and I can agree. Male feminists should "shut up and listen".

Of course, I prefer they listen to MRAs, but ....

v573v · 2015-06-08T11:53:09+00:00

According to #HeFor#She, feminism was "originally conceived as a struggle led only by women for women".

History tells a different story. it has both men and women fighting for women's rights.

Lrellok · 2015-06-08T19:29:24+00:00

"Men do not like to be left out and many think they know better than women even about distinctively women's issues," she says. "Women daring to organise around their issues without men does actually threaten the power relations of male dominance, and this is why it is crucially important."

"Women do not like to be left out and many think they know better than men even about distinctively male issues," she says. "Men daring to organise around their issues without women does actually threaten the power relations of female dominance, and this is why it is crucially important."

She has a suggestion for men who would be feminists: they should form groups of their own. Unlike Doug's feminism club, however, Professor Jeffreys suggests they should "discuss and problematize their own experience".

What a wonderful idea! I can't believe we did not think of it...

"When you say that women shouldn't be beaten by their partners, or when you actively ask a woman's consent before a man puts their penis inside her, you are not practising feminism – you are performing the most basic, bare-minimum actions required to participate in society without being a criminal."

"When you say that men shouldn't be beaten by their partners, or when you actively ask a man's consent before a woman puts his penis inside her, you are not practising feminism – you are performing the most basic, bare-minimum actions required to participate in society without being a criminal."

"But, you know, I wonder how far someone can go in their readings of feminism without realising that as a man, it's not really about you."

Actually, you really do not need to go very far in any research before realizing that as a man, it is entirely about me.

_olas · 2015-06-08T19:04:55+00:00

I just noticed I was banned from r/feminism :(. I posted one thing.

"I think it's unfair to say men's rights activists should stop. Any hate speech won't further their goals and that seems to be a common criticism against them. But, seeing killallmen and maletears trend in feminist circles, I have to wonder if either group should have a monopoly on the idea of equality."

I could have presented my point better, but it's hard to believe it should justify a ban.

rodrigogirao · 2015-06-09T07:28:33+00:00

"Male feminist" is as dumb as "black klansman". Why join a movement that's devoted to oppressing you?

2015-06-09T07:50:43+00:00

She sympathises with Carson and other men who are frustrated at not being welcomed into feminism's inner sanctum. "But, you know, I wonder how far someone can go in their readings of feminism without realising that as a man, it's not really about you."

If feminism would just admit this and stop claiming to be about equality, I'd at least have some level of respect for it. It just keeps trying to claim gender equality for itself and that "feminism helps men too". It's not about helping men at all.

Sorry, but attacking the boogieman Patriarchy isn't helping men or women. It's a waste of time and effort for everyone.

though I would imagine the reasoning behind those words is something to the effect of, "Men have it all already, so women need more to catch up! That's why feminism is about equality, since it's helping women get there!" To which I give a huge eye roll.

Lucidswirl2 · 2015-06-08T13:14:27+00:00

This isn't a mainstream view of feminism tbh. Most feminists I've met have no issue with and actively encourage men to identify as feminists.

2015-06-08T14:40:38+00:00

I've never seen a black person tell someone like Tim Wise to shut the hell up.

ExpendableOne · 2015-06-08T14:44:08+00:00

Sooner or later, every male feminist out there has to realize that feminism never had their best interest at heart, and that all that superficial female approval they might be getting from associating with feminism really isn't worth the moral/personal price they are paying.

chocoboat · 2015-06-08T18:40:57+00:00

Should Hispanic equal rights activists just shut the hell up? Should female CEOs just shut the hell up? Should black politicians just shut the hell up?

Oh look, it doesn't sound so nice when you say those things, does it.

ashlaaaaay · 2015-06-08T23:36:35+00:00

Now that's a headline I can get behind.

Erociter · 2015-06-08T19:30:23+00:00

Grow up male

grow up around males

still believe males don't need their shit checked for generally every kind of behavior that circumvents freedom, agency, the laws of man and nature, etc.

Haha, you wanna talk stockholm syndrome? Poor motherfuckers.

Title	Should male feminists just shut the hell up?
Author	thrway_1000
Upvotes	49
Comments	50
Date	June 8, 2015 9:16 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/390cjb/should_male_feminists_just_shut_the_hell_up/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/should-male-feminists-just-shut-the-hell-up.978216 https://theredarchive.com/post/978216

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