I'm well aware of the point of the "gap"...

Space_Hermit · 2014-11-12T23:48:27+00:00

It's like trying to argue with a fucking cult; nothing you say, no matter how much sense it makes, will ever get through to them. Kudos to you for remaining civil though, despite how utterly obnoxious she was being. Whenever I get into debates like this with irrational people, I always remind myself that I'm not arguing for their benefit, but rather the quiet ones watching from the sidelines who haven't yet figured out where they stand. They're the ones who really matter.

reysol · 2014-11-12T23:29:16+00:00

I love how she chose to insult you instead of trying to argue against your points. That'll show you to try to argue against this socially accepted and widely propagated misconception with sound arguements, actual data, and sources! How dare you try to make her feel like less victimized by society!?

xNOM · 2014-11-12T21:33:17+00:00

When is work gap day? (the day of the next year women have to work till to accumulate the same total hours worked per year as men)

subzero_600 · 2014-11-12T23:48:03+00:00

I must be doing something wrong. Women I know regally out earn me. I personally put it down to my choice in a low paying part time job.

wazzup987 · 2014-11-12T23:16:34+00:00

[permanently deleted]

bsutansalt · 2014-11-13T01:38:48+00:00

Show her this as well as the Consad Report:

http://i.imgur.com/gQtnE.png

Remember, you're not convincing her but those reading the discussion.

Ryanami · 2014-11-13T01:48:19+00:00

people aren't apples and not all apples cost the same anyway

No-fucking-DUH. A clear sign that the discussion won't be rational is when they decide to get hung up on your metaphors. To give her the benefit of the doubt, being Swedish she may have been unfamiliar with the term, but I've seen it so many times where they'll ignore the basic premise and criticize a visual example you used.

DavidByron2 · 2014-11-13T00:01:24+00:00

The purpose of the wage gap is to spread hatred of men by popularizing a conspiracy theory that states men deliberately choose to pay women much less money than other men. Why would men do such a strange thing? because all men hate women and love to oppress them of course.

The Nazis spread similar lies about the Jews. it's typical of hate movements.

nathan1942 · 2014-11-13T03:49:38+00:00

I love how you include multiple sources from news sites for your position and she implies you haven't done any research and provides a single source with a heavy agenda bias. Then she makes personal attack with no provocation when she cant back her position.

Stephen1985 · 2014-11-13T03:22:47+00:00

I had a similar conversation the other day except mine was totally unexpected.

Someone from my facebook commented about the gender pay gap and some other womens issues.

I replied as nicely as i could and said i could not sit back while someone spreads the pay gap myth, she agreed that she would not quote those numbers again until she had looked at the data.

I had much respect for her.

icculushfb42 · 2014-11-13T07:39:06+00:00

I have worked in many offices and had both male and female bosses and from my personal experience (granted personal experience does not equal study - worthy data) employers give the highest pay to the people who consistently show up and contribute the most to the company. They don't give a shit about your gender, only the bottom line. If you aren't making as much money as someone else in the same job or are being passed over for promotions, you should examine your work habits and figure out what you're doing wrong.

jonipetteri · 2014-11-13T02:20:26+00:00

There has long existed a gold standard to determing equal wages: ILO 100. Just about every country except the US is a signatory. It's not just about the job title, but the hours worked and the type of work (overtime/night shift/etc). For example, here in Finland (2013, Eurostat) men work on average 39 hours per week, while women work only 34.8 hours. 39/34.8 ~ 1.12, so naively you would expect men to be paid %12 more in aggregate, or in other words women to be paid %89 of what men are. And Finland is hardly a cherry-picked example: in the UK men work 40.9 hours per week and women only 31.5 hours (%77), in the Netherlands men work 34.8 hours per week and women only 24.4 hours (%70). If Dutch women earned more than %70 of what men do, that would strongly suggest Dutch men get paid less for equivalent work (as defined by ILO 100) than women.

enjoycarrots · 2014-11-13T02:44:36+00:00

I like the part where you provide several well cited links expanding on your argument, so she called you uneducated and gave you a single, poorly supported link and demanded you do the rest of the research yourself.

EmirikolWoker · 2014-11-12T21:21:44+00:00

I'm Blue, Red is a friend of Purple, a Swedish friend of mine.

eletheros · 2014-11-12T23:52:00+00:00

How can women be working free due to the gap when the gap exists only because women don't work (as much)?

Women earn more per hour worked. That they don't per year is entirely the woman's fault for not working enough hours.

theskepticalidealist · 2014-11-13T01:35:29+00:00

You need to get to the point faster and not allow them to dance around.

What you need to do is say that the "pay gap" statistic they keep throwing around is not comparing the same jobs, its comparing ALL jobs. Tell them that unless they believe a part time McDonalds employee working 4 hours a week should get paid the same as a 60 hour a week surgeon, then it makes no sense to say women are "working for free".

Invariably they will always move goal posts to "women just feel more pressure to go into less well paying work". Don't even begin to debate that unless you can first get them to acknowledge that this is totally different from the initial claim, and admit its dishonest to use the statistic the way they/feminists use it.

crinklecutter · 2014-11-13T10:45:55+00:00

It's ridiculous, I had an argument about pay gap two female friends of mine brought it up and I said 'oh yeah I agree it's completely terrible but in the public sector (where we all work) women generally earn more than men and are promoted quicker' they called bullshit so I showed them the corresponding bbc article and talked about the next three people above me are all women . I then showed them another article about how that the kids who go to public schools (less than 1%) make up 60% of senior civil servants, barristers and army officers. They are all male dominated positions. It's the ruling class that are sexist and elitist. Though this didn't fly very well and they told me it's not just down statistics and then started their other favourite topic being groped in bars. I'm not senior management, I don't earn a great wage and I certainly don't grope women in bars yet I was still berrated because of well reasons...

2014-11-12T22:43:05+00:00

Very well put. I'll have to save this!

headless_bourgeoisie · 2014-11-13T08:40:52+00:00

What the fuck is she even trying to say? I cannot make heads or tails of that first post.

EmirikolWoker · 2014-11-13T05:51:48+00:00

What are they talking about "working for free for a week"? Do they expect a paycheque at the end of every day or is there some bullshit in the UK I'm not aware of?

2014-11-13T08:36:38+00:00

Hitchen's razor; I like that.

mechdemon · 2014-11-13T22:58:17+00:00

you handled that very well. Good job!

danpilon · 2014-11-13T01:05:25+00:00

Obviously feminists are wrong about the wage gap, but I don't think mra's have it totally right either. The wage gap is indicative of sexism...

Wait wait! Let me finish!

I mean, it is, just not in the workplace. Feminists take issue with businesses and government when it comes to the wage gap, but it has nothing to do with them. Women doing the same work get the same pay. Women are paid less on average because they don't do the same work. At this point, too many mra's just say, "there you go, no sexism!"

But think about why don't they do the same work. Because of their place in society and the family. Many women leave work to be homemakers and to raise their children. They may get part time jobs, or enter full time employment later than men, and thus earn less.

So the issue is society's expectations of both genders. It's skewed against men who want to stay home to take care of the kids and manage the household, and it's skewed against women who want to create a full career for themselves. There's a wage gap and a work gap, and both genders get the short end of one straw.

Society's idea of men and women's place within the household is what needs to change to close the wage gap, not government or business policies.

Family-Duty-Hodor · 2014-11-13T07:30:18+00:00

You also could have cited the 'single-women-under-25-without-children' statistic (assuming she falls into this category) and calculate for her the days that she gets paid double.

EmirikolWoker · 2014-11-13T09:57:09+00:00

[permanently deleted]

AnthonyUSA · 2014-11-13T10:28:10+00:00

That was fucking amazing. God bless you

Chulda · 2014-11-13T11:34:26+00:00

TIL that people aren't apples.

dude21862004 · 2014-11-13T12:53:13+00:00

You have an inferiority complex! I say as I argue to keep my inferiority complex.

dungone · 2014-11-13T14:05:07+00:00

I'm already working for another organization for free until the end of the year. I refuse to work for free for you as well.

I don't doubt that feminists would consider the burden of proof for all the nonsense that comes out of their mouths as "unpaid work."

xdrunkagainx · 2014-11-13T14:16:18+00:00

This sub would be so much better if it wasn't filled with winy posts, and and champion facebook arguers.

shaolin_cowboy · 2014-11-13T15:30:15+00:00

How about the fact that my work had to change health insurance companies and rates went up for all employees due to women having more pregnancies? How is it fair for men to have to help absorb this cost?

AirNova · 2014-11-13T17:53:16+00:00

Can we get the links you use in the picture I'm to lazy to type them out myself

2014-11-13T18:15:03+00:00

LOL UR SO INSECURE?

Uhhh... You seem insecure because he destroyed your argument and you can't think of anything else to say in response to it.

red_tux · 2014-11-13T20:08:37+00:00

FEELINGS!!! YOU MUST ARGUE WITH FEELINGS, NOT LOGIC!!!!

2014-11-13T15:45:53+00:00

It was somewhere on reddit where I first saw it:

You can't reason someone out of a subject they didn't reason themselves into.

Electroverted · 2014-11-14T19:10:52+00:00

No counterpoint.

Better revert to personal attacks.

Title	I'm well aware of the point of the "gap"...
Author	EmirikolWoker
Upvotes	440
Comments	150
Date	November 12, 2014 9:21 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2m41o0/im_well_aware_of_the_point_of_the_gap/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/im-well-aware-of-the-point-of-the-gap.993506 https://theredarchive.com/post/993506

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