If evolutionary psychology is wrong, than why do straight women find muscles on men more attractive than vice versa?

DanlexTheKnight · 2021-04-12T14:11:32+00:00

Look at how men are portrayed in women’s magazines, they aren’t showing off their muscles, they look more approachable and sort of warm? Look at this comparison between how the same actor is portrayed in a man’s magazine vs a woman’s: here

Ignore the article just look at the difference there. Edit: found the pictures in reddit, decided to leave that here instead

Women certainly like muscles! Because they look healthy and indicate the person cares for their appearance and health, not due to that “macho” attitude (though I suppose some might like it since there are always exemptions to the rule). That is why celebrities like Tom Holland or Henry Cavill are seen as such attractive men, they have that “delicate/nerdy” side to them, plus the muscles. But big muscles aren’t that attractive when compared to slim but defined ones, at least in my opinion.

zoemondo · 2021-04-12T14:10:24+00:00

I just want to point out that 160 women is a ridiculously small sample size. It would be nice to see the actual study.

RedPillDetox · 2021-04-12T14:14:06+00:00

People will simply tell you it's a learning through socialization mechanic.

Eitherway, a few key aspects:

Not everybody here thinks evolutionary psychology is wrong. I, for instance, have used evolutionary pscyhology itself to disprove some red pill aspects.
Generally speaking, people don't disagree with evolutionary psychology on these "common sense" bits of knowledge. Hardly anyone would disagree that muscularity isn't, on average, attractive to women, and many people would agree it's because of it being a genetic cue of fitness.
Most people just have issues with the most fringe, folk science theories of red pill, like hypergamy, female nature, etc. Which, by the way, have nothing to do with actual evolutionary psychology. Red pill isn't rooted on evolutionary psychology or any other science, past the ocasional cherry picked, misinterpreted media article they stumble accross.

zoemondo · 2021-04-12T14:23:49+00:00

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allusivecat · 2021-04-12T14:15:03+00:00

I think you need to hang out with more people. In my experience, those stereotypes don't always hold true. I think in general most people want someone who is at least taking care of themselves, but what that looks like is very dependent on each individual. The typical "oh all girls like guys with muscles and guys don't like muscular girls" is a stereotype of straight people that I don't even think most mature straight people follow.

People are attracted to what they are attracted to and I know plenty of straight guys who find muscular girls attractive and others who don't. I also know plenty of girls who prefer twinky guys and also some who prefer muscular guys.

Plus, your first link is a poll of 160 women who looked at pictures of bodies and strength was the highest indicator. That really is not an intensive study at all. And I think their is also a difference of "this is attractive" vs "this is my type and what I'm attracted to". Like I can say "Chris Hemsworth is an attractive man" but he is not my type and I would not date someone of his type either.

I don't know what to say about your 2nd link but you also provided no evidence that men aren't attracted to muscular women so I am assuming that is your own opinion (which is fine! You like what you like) but then please be aware that is your opinion and its not necessarily shared by all men/women/people who are attracted to muscular women.

zoemondo · 2021-04-12T15:05:24+00:00

One more thing I want to mention that is often forgotten when TRP'ers bring up scientific studies: trends are just that. Trends. They don't speak for all people, assuming the trend is actually true in the first place. A trend is not the psychology equivalent of a law in physics, where nothing goes against the trend.

A conclusion like "70% of women in this study liked the muscular guys" is often taken to the extreme that basically says "All women only want muscular guys, therefore if you're not buff, you're fucked." The anger and insecurities of these guys makes them jump to incorrect and wild conclusions.

In it's worst form, these wild conclusions are occasionally used by redpill/blackpill guys for them to say things like "you're a woman so you automatically like XYZ, you don't know what you want." This is not only false, it's offensive, and it's one of the dumbest things you could do if you're looking to make connections with women.

lavicat1 · 2021-04-12T14:15:38+00:00

I can’t tell you what men find attractive, but as a woman, I find bulky muscles like the guy in the pic hugely unattractive. Like, actually would never get with a guy like that at all. I would rather a “dad bod”, though I prefer a lean, lankier guy.

I am not alone in this sentiment. Many people I know feel the same. If you don’t believe me, take a look at the current celebrities women in my age range (20s) are failing for. It’s people like Timothee Chalamet and Harry Styles.

Sure, many people like muscles, but many also do not.

lilycamilly · 2021-04-12T14:29:30+00:00

I'm a straight woman, and my opinion is that, simply put, being "fit" shows that that person knows how to take care of themselves. Being in good shape indicates that you know at least the basics about nutrition and fitness, and that you care about your health. The vast majority of women aren't into fit guys because of some primal need for protection, but simply because it shows that they know how to take good care of their bodies and have the dedication to actually do it.

Also, there's a lot of ladies like me who like some meat on their fellas! I very much prefer men built like powerlifters over bodybuilders. As others have already commented, I don't think there's really all THAT many chicks who are super into the hyper-lean, super ripped men that you might think is the "ideal" male form. I'm a bit of a chubby chaser, not for men who look like all they do is eat and never move with weak, doughey bodies, but for men who take good care of themselves and exercise but don't make it their whole lives and can eat burgers with me from time to time!

In short, being in good shape is like having a clean house or a stable job; it shows that you're a responsible adult who can take care of themselves and doesn't need to be mothered.

ciopink · 2021-04-12T15:10:34+00:00

I think this is one of the times when RedPill could be right, but instead concludes useless things.

Yes, muscles are attractive and are likely to get you lots of sexual partners* (But maybe decrease your chance of a long-term partner) if you know how to combine them with a good personality. But not because they make you an aggressive alpha male (!). But because muscles indicate health and, for women who are more insecure about themselves, they can be a sign that you will protect them (instead of attacking them) from other people or dangers.

Being aggressive does not have to be part of the equation (do not confuse assertiveness and limits, or having disagreements with aggressiveness). And if it is, chances are the girl you're attracting has some mental/emotional problem or is staying by your side because she's scared you're going to do something worse to her, if you're aggressive with her.

*That doesn't makes you an Alpha because Alpha/Beta doesn't exist.

Inareskai · 2021-04-12T16:23:14+00:00

I am a straight woman, I'll pass on the muscles thanks. I prefer toothpick skinny or bear chub, muscle implies a lifestyle that I'm not interested in. Why bother?

People have mentioned it in other comments, but to be clear, even if evolutionary biology is correct that muscles are generally seen as attractive. This is not a 'law' like physics, it's a trend or a majority. It does not mean that men must have muscles to be attractive or that women are only into such things. It's not a damning nail in the coffin for someone who does not have those features.

It might be a preference, it is rarely a deal breaker.

reggae-mems · 2021-04-12T15:09:41+00:00

Being fit takes disipline, good habits and some self care. These are all very good qualities in a partner bc they are likely not only going to put effort in the gym, butin other aspects of life. Its not about the muscles but what they represent. They mean a man is healthy, fit and not prone to some illnesses seen in overweghtor sedentary people. They arent atractive bc they invoque the "macho man" look, but bc they are a queick and effectiveway to comunicate positive qualities in a man. Means the guy cares about his body, and he wont be a slob, means he knows how to work hard, and it means he is most likely healthy. Plus people who exerveise tend more often to have more enregy than those who dont, this is also desirablein apartner.

Plus if he is strong means he canopeanhard sealed jars for me :v intsnt girl bonner right there

But trust me, im more i to lean nerds than muscly gym dudes. Why? Gym dudes in my experience, tend to be full of themselves and somewhat duchey... unlike cute nerds. Ofc its not a rule, but more often than notthis has beenmy experience

Edit: exercise is super good for mental health too, also very desirable in a partner

onlyforsex · 2021-04-12T16:25:24+00:00

Some evolutionary psychology can be reasonable, but TRP treats their cherrypicked version of it like dogma.

sgtmattie · 2021-04-12T14:10:37+00:00

I (a bisexual woman) can actually give you some insight into this. First of all, overly muscular men are not nearly as attractive to women as commonly thought. So right there is a huge misunderstanding. Women would generally prefer someone with "practical" muscles, like a construction worker, than someone who has more "performative" muscles, like people who go to the gym all the time.

The other thing is that men do like muscular women, just that "muscular" on a women looks very different than you would expect. A 6 pack on a woman like infinitely more difficult to achieve, because we naturally carry more weight around the stomach (to protect the uterus).

The other thing to remember is that there could still be more innate psychological tendencies to people's choices of partner, without it dictating our entire behaviours. It's still beneficial for a women to have a "strong" man, because it's useful to have someone to open pickle jars for them. I've had jars of pasta sauce that sat in my cupboard for months because I couldn't open them. Men (generally) aren't in need of supplemental physical abilities, so it doesn't concern them.

If I'm looking for a woman, I'll still admittedly probably like a woman who is bigger or stronger than me because I have tiny hands and it's useful. Dating is emotional, but it's also practical. But also some people, more and more these days as we modernize, don't care nearly as much if they're partner provides these more "basic practical" needs. Most of the guys I've dates haven't been particularly large, but it can come in handy.

Anyway I hope this helps you just a little. Feel free to ask more questions.

xvszero · 2021-04-12T17:38:40+00:00

Muscle can mean all kinds of things, a lot of them social and cultural.

There was a worldwide attractiveness poll a few years back that had like hundreds of thousands of votes (maybe millions?) and the #1 and #2 spots were Jungkook and Jason Mamoa.

Mamoa is a typical "manly" man with muscles, sure, but Jungkook is a skinny Korean guy with no muscles that, at least by Western standards, is more "feminine", and girls go WILD over him.

If attraction was purely evolutionary how would two very, very different guys end up in the top 2 spots? I think there is a huge social element here.

But yeah, of course a lot of women are attracted to muscles. And a lot aren't. Some of them like us skinny dweebs.

LadylikeElectricland · 2021-04-12T14:14:11+00:00

I'm a straight woman who doesn't find muscular men particularly attractive. Checkmate evolutionary psychology!

On a more serious note, what we find 'attractive' is largely culturally determined. It is what glossy magazines and TV sells us as 'attractive.' Not everybody buys into it, plus people have different tastes. I might like my tall, lanky guys, somebody else is into gym rats, and a third person doesn't care about physical looks at all. It is also perfectly possible that you can find a muscular physique highly attractive and still love your partner even if they do not have it. You rarely fall in love because of one thing, let alone one physical feature. Only superficial people do that and it's a relation that's doomed to fail since we all get old, wrinkly and bloated.

Soft-Neat8117 · 2021-04-12T14:53:14+00:00

I like muscles on women.

niceguycoach · 2021-04-12T16:25:54+00:00

Stop buying into your self-limiting belief: Women will only be attracted to me if I'm lean and muscular. "Some truth" is not a valid basis for reality or a predictor of your individual dating experiences. Stop following studies and start meeting people.

Pale_Difficulty_6631 · 2021-04-12T16:36:26+00:00

I think we forget about the constant drumming into our subconscious all the media crap since the day we were born. The whole ‘men like big boobs and women like muscles’ thing, where as most people are attracted to lots of different things in a partner, confidence, intelligence, humour, feet, submissiveness, happy go lucky attitudes, reservation, integrity etc. the list is endless. It’s not black and white, it is far more complex than that and that’s not even mentioning cultural, political or religious influences.

RunThroughTheWoods · 2021-04-12T17:25:00+00:00

In my experience it's more that a lot of straight men feel insecure when it comes to muscular women. Again this is just my experience but there always seems to be some conversation about whose stronger, whose more muscular, who can lift more etc., My ex and I, for example, used to box and he'd constantly chalk up my strength to hormones or something rather than just me being a girl, who is stronger (or at least as strong) as him. What I'm saying is I don't think it's about straight women mostly being attracted to muscular men (because in my experience they aren't any more attracted to muscular men than another other man), I think it's about a lot of straight men avoiding muscular women despite whatever attraction they feel towards them, because of insecurity.

imhereforthemeta · 2021-04-12T15:28:48+00:00

you know when people drop bad/junky studies with meh sample sizes and minimal nuance about how men are rapists/monsters and try to use it as some sort of checkmate? thats what this feels like.

Men don't like women with muscles because yall aint socialized for it. its the same reason men wore "shirts" for hundreds of years and all of the sudden, it was considered unattractive/feminine/not cool to do it. You underestimate how so many of our preferences are based on socialization alone. Do you ever see those studies about how black women are constantly stiffed on dating apps? It's not because black women are ugly- it's because, in America, there's still a lot of social bias against black women.

Not everything comes down to what our inner wolf thinks. A lot of it comes from the stupid shit that is burned into your brain as a kid. If chubby dudes and beefy women were treated as the peak of beauty in society, that's what society would find attractive.

SnowyLex · 2021-04-12T16:45:45+00:00

I don't think all evo psych is wrong at all. It's more like, some evo psych is done the wrong way (scientifically speaking). Like this:

Look at behavior of men and women.
Come up with a hypothesis to explain it.
Look for examples to confirm the hypothesis.

The scientific method is supposed to do a lot of work trying to disprove theories. So a more scientific evo psych would look like this:

Look at behavior of men and women.
Come up with multiple hypotheses that could explain it.
Look for examples that confirm AND go against each hypothesis. Do a really good job looking for the contrary evidence in particular. That's partly to make up for the natural human inclination to cling to the first hypothesis that "feels right."
Eventually decide which explanation seems most likely based on all the data while also recognizing that perhaps that explanation will be proven wrong.
Remember that, in every area related to psychology, you're going to have outliers. Even if you arrive at a completely correct evo psych explanation, there will always be members of a population for whom the hypothesis does not apply. For instance, millions of years of evolution have created humans who flinch away from pain in order to survive... but we still have outliers who get excited from pain.

I'm sure you can see how the first process leaves out certain important features of the scientific method. It's especially common with laypeople.

Laypeople, and even educated scientists, are sometimes guilty of doing that sort of thing in areas other than evo psych. Evo psych is especially ripe for it, though, since psychology in general is ripe for faulty application of the scientific method. Much of psychology is conjecture, and a lot of famous psych studies have turned out not to be reproducible.

So I think it's fair to respect that evo psych can arrive at correct conclusions as long as you remember to:

Keep your skeptic hat on
Read what the studies actually say
Read alternative explanations and consider those
Accept that there will be exceptions even to true hypotheses

TheseNthose · 2021-04-12T14:26:05+00:00

Curves are attractive. It's not rocket science.

bathwizard · 2021-04-12T14:35:15+00:00

Two things. Psychology itself is not a science, it's like you read a description of a hypothetical person and then try to fit who you are dealing with into those guidelines. Evolution does not have a specific purpose in mind for why it does things either, human beings can only guess. This leads to attributing things to it that are meaningless.

Combining the two is simply switching the genre and source of the hypothetical behaviors.

What does this lead too? A lot of educated clinical opinions, also known as assumptions and telling people what they think.

2021-04-12T21:18:51+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	If evolutionary psychology is wrong, than why do straight women find muscles on men more attractive than vice versa?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	4
Comments	120
Date	April 12, 2021 1:50 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/mpe9o7/if_evolutionary_psychology_is_wrong_than_why_do/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/if-evolutionary-psychology-is-wrong-than-why-do.1188793 https://theredarchive.com/post/1188793

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