What is a "nice guy" exactly?

HelloSilverTongue · 2023-02-20T13:39:53+00:00

A friend and I were just talking about this the other day. Here's one of the articles we were talking about that does a decent job of explaining big parts of it:

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/love-sex/nice-guy-syndrome-dating-tactics-persona-men-women-relationships-a7476651.html

My TL;DR take from personal experiences:

One does kind things for you because they genuinely like or love you. They see you struggling and want to help because they can and want to a majority of the time (because we're not perfect and all have off days).

Then there are people who do kind things because they always expect a payment of some sort of 'payment' afterwards, like sex, money, or favours a majority of the time. The moral of the behaviours are corrupt.

Longish take:

There are emotions and behaviours that we have naturally, both men and women, that are normal for us to emote occasionally based on normal stressors of life (barring any debuffs for mental health issues like anxiety and depression, cultural differences, religious obligations, etc.).

'Normal' people that are generally good that are agreeable, compassionate, and vulnerable for a majority of the time. We all have off days and I'm not talking about those. They'll help those they love just because and don't require any pay back or that you'll owe them later. That kind of stuff.

Then we have people, both men and women, who fake being kind for a means to an end, to use people for what they have like money, or are known to be manipulative, unfaithful, disrespectful that encompasses most of their personalities. They leave a long trail of destruction and hurt behind them.

People who have known them their entire life or have been discarded by them can tell you that they have a reputation of being like that (exceptions for the ones who are only known to be like that around abusers), they rotate people regularly and only keep the agreeable people for their disposal, etc.

creamerfam5 · 2023-02-21T01:18:38+00:00

From Dr Glover's book No More Mr Nice Guy, the nice guy is dependent on approval from others, especially women, to maintain his sense of self. He is often more concerned with keeping up this image of being a nice guy than he is with actually being kind and good hearted. He buys into happy wife, happy life often to his own detriment. He cannot handle even the merest suggestion of criticism. He hides unfavorable behaviors and pretends that he is perfect. He's prone to covert contracts, aka giving to get.

The r/niceguys sub family is about the guys who will be all complimentary to a woman until she turns him down and then immediately calls her a cunt or bitch or tells her she will die alone and he never wanted to date her anyway.

beansmuch · 2023-02-20T14:12:30+00:00

Yep. Everyone has a different sense of what a nice guy is. At the end of the day, being a "nice guy" seems to just be a general, pretty vague term for an archetype of a guy who has such and such red flags in the dating market. It can be applied to many different traits or behaviors, etc.

Most people are going to talk about how nice guys want to trade niceness for sex... but that's not really going to help change the perspective of any nice guy. I would say don't be a "nice guy" for your own sake and sanity. In my sense, a "nice guy" puts a girl's small needs before his own big needs. That could be fine in some cases when she's your life partner, but not when you've known her for 2 weeks and all you've done is stared at her in biology class. Not all nice guys are the "fuck you bitch you not friendly so rude entitled slut" after she didn't respond to your "good morning" text.

As I've gotten older, I've started to understand the "nice guy" as a red flag because it's a symptom of someone who doesn't have any self-esteem and this lack of self-esteem manifests as being a doormat, ie: someone who will let themselves be or even volunteer themselves to be exploited in virtually every interaction, and that's always a ticking time bomb... no one can nor will live like that forever, especially when they're health starts declining (ie: someone might run into health issues at 30 and they no longer have the energy to be a "nice guy"). Any nice guy has to learn to navigate and start to feel comfortable not being a nice guy. The nice guy will drop his plans with his friends to engage in a dry text conversation with the girl he's had feelings for for 4 days. The nice guy will voluntarily turn into an insomniac to help this girl study for her classes. And so on.

Okay, but the danger of this is also the health of the relationship itself. If such and such relationship can only be sustained by you being a doormat, then that relationship was doomed from the start. Nice guys' serially fail in relationships for reasons like this. Being exploited prevents any relationships, whether romantic or friendship, from actually properly "blooming". You'll never have a proper meaningful relationship with someone if you let yourself be exploited in it. That doesn't mean be a selfish asshole, it just means we have to properly evaluate our respective needs. ie: don't sacrifice a medium or big need of yours for a small need of someone else.

tinyhermione · 2023-02-20T14:28:49+00:00

It's men who think they should be paid back in sex for being nice.

Instead of just thinking being kind and respectful towards everyone is the default and doesn't deserve any payment. And that relationships or hookups have a higher threshold than someone just being nice to you.

ginzing · 2023-02-20T14:26:15+00:00

a guy who whines with thinly veiled or not at all veiled hostility and entitlement that women always go for the asshole and never pick them even though they’re a “nice guy” - inherent in what they’re saying is that all their “nice guy” attributes make them deserving of sex. they tend to express frustration and anger with women for not seeing what a great guy they are and choosing someone else over them. it’s a very entitled stance that they’re deserving of attention from women.

a call in radio show guy i heard took a call from a teen guy complaining that girls never picked him to be with and what a nice guy he is and how wrong women are for choosing assholes over him. the host said “women don’t love assholes they hate pussies” meaning that the when someone whines that they deserve something it isn’t appealing to anyone.

Exis007 · 2023-02-20T16:48:43+00:00

We need to define terms.

Kind people are kind because that's a personality trait. They receive pleasure for themselves simply by existing in a state of kindness towards other people, provided that people haven't given them a reason not to be kind. It's their natural set-point to be pleasant, generous, and helpful.
Nice people, as we're using the term for this example, are nice because they expect to get something in return. They expect that if they aren't a dick to people, people owe them something in return. The point is that the kindness is transactional, but they haven't set the terms beforehand. They just assume that you'll feel indebted to repay their kindness in the manner they are imagining.

No one has a problem with kind people. Everyone likes a kind person. That person is doing what they are doing because that's how they are and how they like to operate. If you're a dick to a kind person, they'll just either try to kill you with more kindness or set boundaries to leave you alone. Kind people often are kind because they have strong boundaries as to whom they entertain because they often recognize unkind behavior in others and are quick to dismiss unkind people from their social circles. They aren't pushovers at all necessarily.

Almost no one likes nice people, as we're using the term nice. The mental setpoint for nice people is that they are only doing the things they are doing to get what they want out of people. Sometimes that's sexual, but it usually extends beyond that. Your nice friend is the friend that only calls you to vent about all their problems and talk about all their drama, but otherwise ignores you when things are going okay. They aren't interested in your issues, they only use you to vent. And they say, when they do call, how great of a friend you are and how much they like you, but what they mean is that they like what you give them. Nice friends want to hang out with you because you always drive so they can get pretty drunk and not have to worry about a ride home.

Nice guys in relationships think that they are owed something romantic or sexual from someone because they showed up, weren't a total jerk, and that must mean you want to fuck them. They think playacting kindness was a service they provided to you and they are entitled to compensation because of it. What they are really communicating is that their base self is someone who is a jerk, who has no inclination to kindness, but they pretended to be kind for your benefit and you failed to appreciate it. And so when refused sex or a date, they call you a fat, ugly bitch and whine that you must only date assholes who treat you like shit, because you obviously can't appreciate the faux kindness being offered in this interaction. Nice people view all interpersonal relationships as transactional....what do you get, what do I get? Being nice is a means to an end.

"Nice guys finish last" is the lament of the nice guy. It's the sad song he sings when he realizes that faking transactional kindness doesn't necessarily endear you to anyone. Kind people never really say that, because kind people are kind because of their own intrinsic motivations and they aren't blind to the fact that there are a lot of jerks in the world. Kind people are being kind because that's who they are and how they want to operate, and they don't think it entitles them to any particular kind of treatment. They use kindness to sort people they encounter and to keep the people who value it and respect them.

Remandergrowth · 2023-02-20T16:03:06+00:00

I am not sure if I can make a very good definition here, but let me list some characteristics that need to be in the definition.

Ultimately, the idea that service can compensate for a lack of attraction. So most nice guys implicitly believe that if they are the perfect emotional partner, physical attraction will naturally form, ignoring the fact that attraction is necessary and is often something we can not control. They believe that if I am always their and I am the perfect friend, she has to fall for me. If I am always present, my usefulness will transcend her attraction. Which is not true. In the same way a man can't buy his way to being my best friend, people can't buy their way to attraction. Women do the same thing at times when they make themselves door mat to men they have feelings for.
A nice guy is afraid of communicating his true desires. Most nice guys would not exist if the nice person simply went up to the person and expressed their true intentions. However, most nice guys want to move covertly in order to not raise alarm bells. Rather than simply actually try to get with the women they want, they will suggest it, hint at it, etc, all while being a lapdog to the woman or man in question. They won't be upfront and show their hand, so to speak for fear of rejection, which motivates this. They will buy you flowers but never ask you out on a date.
Lack of self pride or an inability to put themselves first. There are many relationships where men and women will intentionally take advantage of nice guy behavior. Simps do exist. However, most people are not simps because they have enough situational awareness and self-respect to avoid unfair relationships. They notice the trends that exist in them and act accordingly. However, nice guys do not and are often willing to over extend incredibly. A self-respecting person would not give without ever receiving in a friendship.

Nightchanger · 2023-02-20T16:21:53+00:00

Literal definition but sarcastic

waffleznstuff30 · 2023-02-20T16:29:51+00:00

It's a very manipulative guy. He is nice he loses out because he is such a good guy and is a martyr for his niceness. A nice guy is a guy who will do the bare minimum in a relationship because that niceness was just a way to let your guard down. The beginning he is so nice you chose the nice guy he will treat you well. Then he will gradually pull effort and his fabled niceness his selling point away once he gets a girlfriend because the persona is too much for him. He holds misogynistic views under the surface that somehow women don't want nice guys and we are always inclined to pick assholes (guys who aren't them), women are shallow, the only value women have to him is dating them or having sex with him, and women are submissive can't make their own decisions. When these guys are rejected they are very bitter and lash out usually in comically bad ways. "Well you were ugly anyways" "bitch" "I'm sorry I'm not a 10 you women are so shallow". He plays a persona to get a girl but he's honestly not that nice.

My advice for guys who get stuck with this. Focus on something else besides how nice you are your niceness is not the issue. Being nice is the bare minimum. It's basically being toilet trained everyone has basic human decency down. Even grimy fuckboys do and its shocking and gross when they suddenly have a persona change. It's not necessarily the best thing to sell yourself with. Being nice should be established already. It's not a good selling point. It's basically like saying I'm a car that runs. what makes you better than everyone else if everyone else is that and more. Focus on the other things that make you special for someone. Do you have a great life and have space for a player two in your life. Great. Do you have a strong social circle and fun hobbies that you want to to share with someone focus that. Being nice isn't the selling point and everyone is nice.

avarciousRutabega99 · 2023-02-20T14:09:21+00:00

A “nice guy” is someone who can only ever be “nice.” Nice guys are rarely funny, dont know how to tease or flirt, the best they can be is inoffensive. In essence, its a boring person who think’s they are desirable partners simply because they aren’t outwardly rude or nasty. They have one dimensional personalities. Socially its the bare minimum.

AssistTemporary8422 · 2023-02-20T14:29:12+00:00

I'd define it according to Jungian Psychology. Its a guy whose shadow are what society views as wrong traits like aggression, lust, risky behavior, narcissism, mockery, etc, and he has suppressed them. According to Jung our shadow has a useful purpose and should be integrated into our personality rather than suppressed. If we suppress our shadow it goes into our subconscious and comes out in toxic ways.

As a result these nice guy are really boring and often don't drink, can't tell any edgy jokes, are afraid of offending anyone, can't show sexual intent, etc. But deep down in their subconscious they feel they are entitled to sex if they are nice to a girl and will often lash out in certain moments when they are rejected.

hari_hbp · 2023-02-20T16:57:03+00:00

To me, a nice guy is someone who's nice because he wants to.

People may describe him as nice because he has no other redeeming qualities. The reality is just that they find his way of a satisfying life simply boring or uninteresting - nobody's fault - just different perspectives.

There's nothing wrong with being the nice guy - if it makes one happy and satisfied - as long as one doesn't hurt others.

Kooky-Lab2298 · 2023-02-20T18:07:02+00:00

Flaw 1: He thinks women are like street vendors who give it to whoever values it the highest.

Flaw 2: he unquestioningly imports society’s values as more important than his own and believes others must too.

He then combines those 2 flaws to put a lot of effort in impressing a girl in the way society says a man ‘should’. He thinks of it like taking a math test, I got 9 out of 10 right, she owes me an A. He gets extremely pissed when she ‘breaks the rules’ and doesn’t follow up with her end of what the thinks is a “social contract”. He then uses society’s values to judge her as a bad person “dumb, liar, slut, etc…’ all bc he believes she broke society’s rules in not taking the guy who put in the most effort.

Jhadiro · 2023-02-20T18:25:46+00:00

A guy who thinks that being nice is a method of getting what you want.

The drastic example is being "a gentleman and expecting sex because of it."

Or wanting love and affection, doing something that you think the other person will appreciate and because of it give you the love and attention. Instead of just straight up asking.

vcreativ · 2023-02-20T20:09:03+00:00

Cinema Therapy does a good job at defining the terms, I think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjpxlBRbhXs

They also discuss how they themselves were nice guys and learnt to grow out of it. That could be one of the meanings of "nice guys finish last".

Though, I should add, the converse is not true in the sense that anyone being "successful" with women is in any way further developed. That's a misconception.

JimBeamAndCoke2016 · 2023-02-20T21:04:39+00:00

Ok, I also get regularly confused about the nice guy issue, especially as people say that I am a nice guy. In the current climate, I don't know whether that's a compliment or a criticism.

Basically my outlook and philosophy is to treat people how I would wish to be treated myself. However, I find that I get pissed off if that behaviour isn't returned, but I don't show my displeasure, as I have a tendency to avoid rocking the boat, or creating conflict.

spiraldinosaur · 2023-02-20T21:06:07+00:00

Nice guys don't "finish last" at all. It's just an excuse that narcissists use to be shitty to other people because they want to make everything a competition. Don't ask what a "nice guy" is, ask what it is they're "finishing last" in.

Yabbari_The_Wizard · 2023-02-20T22:18:00+00:00

A nice guy is a person who is nice but expects either sexual favours or expects the person they are being nice to want to be in a relationship with them.

Their niceness only lasts till you either reject them or start dating another person and then their true colours show.

And the saying nice guys finish last is one of two reasons in my life experience.

1: The asshole wasn't an asshole at the start but became more and more shitty the longer the relationship went on.

2: They offer a more spontaneous life, the bad boy types tend to be more out going and in the moment while nice guys are more reserved and living life in a pattern.

Solution: Be genuine with yourself and be more outgoing, you'll never find a gf sitting down doing nothing all day.

Dasslukt · 2023-02-20T23:34:48+00:00

There is a Difference between just being a nice guy, and being a NiceGuy.

A nice guy, is just that that. Nice, pleasant to be around, polite etc. What people often complain about when it comes to them and dating is that that is all they are. Nice. The bare minimum for human interaction. They aren't interesting, funny, smart or whatever else people want in addition to being nice.

A NiceGuy however, is a manipulative POS. He acts nice enough, but he has ulterior motives for it. For instance, he helps you lift that heavy bag, but rather than doing it because he sees you struggling and genuinely want to help, he does it because he hopes you will thank him by doing something sexual with him. And then often goes on the internet to complain about how "b**ches doesn't want a nice guy like me" when the sexual gratification doesn't occur.

YianLey · 2023-02-21T13:23:42+00:00

i personally hate the expression "nice guy"

but it's just thrown around everywhere

imo it's more accurate to say "no spine guy" people who have no backbone and will never stand up for themselves do finish last, in relationship and at work

wandering0101 · 2023-02-21T14:07:34+00:00

Straight to the point:

The nice guy is a guy that is being nice. He respect the girl.

People make confusion with the manipulative guy, but the nice guy isnt manipulative. He is just a nice guy.

Redpillers say that the nice guy finish last because redpillers are not nice guys, some of them are manipulative.

cvntcvntcvnt · 2023-02-21T18:39:40+00:00

Nice guy depends on who says it. Your confusion is warranted.

For most men that use it, they often refer to nice guys as men who portray supposedly weak and insecure parts which they see is within themselves, of which they try to shame themselves out of.

For women that use it, they often refer to nice guys as men who like them but they don’t like the men AND the men are hurt by this fact and try to change the woman’s opinion of them through manipulation, rather than threatening them or just accepting it.

“Nice guy” has nothing to do with niceness, morality, or politeness.

Objective_Dream861 · 2023-02-21T23:38:32+00:00

There are two archetypes of the nice guy, which can both be explained by the Big Five personality model.

The first type is guys who are high in trait Neuroticism, which is sensitivity to negative emotion. People who are high in Neuroticism are triggered very easily, and therefore- frequently. Essentially, their lived experience is like an endless torment of being upset about things, and as a result, the thing they value more than anything is avoidance of negative emotion. This causes them to overvalue niceness, because niceness is a social trait that says "I am the kind of person who will not cause you to experience negative emotions". This is what they want from other people, and so this is what they try to "sell" to others. When they get rejected, they experience that rejection very violently, and lash out, making people believe that their pretense of niceness was a calculated charade, but I think that most of the time the sentiment of trying to be nice is genuine, they just can't deal properly with the negative emotion of rejection. However, Neurotic people are in fact in danger of being corrupted into truly not nice people, because negative emotion is a powerful cognitive distorter, and if allowed to run unchecked, can generate a toxic mindset over time.

The other type is guys who are high in trait Agreeableness, which can be thought of as the degree to which you put the needs of others before your own. People who are high in trait Agreeableness are people pleasers, who are perfectly willing to think of other people's needs at the expense of their own needs. They find it difficult to differentiate selfishness from taking care of self needs, lumping both behaviors in the same category of being a bad selfish person, and this makes it very hard for them to engage in behavior such as courtship, where it's the man's role to turn his desire (his needs) into action. Instead, they try to saturate the woman with acts of niceness in the hopes that she'll be convinced to make the move herself. Highly agreeable people often find themselves feeling exploited when their altruism isn't reciprocated.

Title	What is a "nice guy" exactly?
Author	IcyKrypto777
Upvotes	10
Comments	47
Date	February 20, 2023 1:15 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/1176dqd/what_is_a_nice_guy_exactly/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/what-is-a-nice-guy-exactly.1153161 https://theredarchive.com/post/1153161

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