QUESTION: Do you have any good arguments against the "Men are the main perpetrators of X, especially against women"?

Blutarg · 2020-10-03T17:15:43+00:00

You might bring color into it. I bet the typical feminist will fold like a map. Something like, "sure, men commit a disproportionate percentage of crimes, but if that means something negative about men then what does it mean that black men commit a disproportionate percentage of men's crimes?" It is obvious that the high percentage of crimes carried out by black men is a sign of the terrible treatment of black Americans through history, so hopefully that will carry over to men in general. When society sees someone as disposable, they are more likely to act that way.

Then there's the logical fallacy. Just because most crimes are committed by X does not even come close to meaning that most of X will ever come close to committing a crime.

EpsilonFactor633 · 2020-10-03T18:21:55+00:00

its true but on the flip side men also commit the majority of "heroic" acts - putting your life in danger to rescue someone else

not to mention all the gruelling jobs that are filled by men that keep society going. keep the sewers clean, the food coming, the water and electricity flowing... its all done by men

ShortTailBoa · 2020-10-03T18:35:32+00:00

We don't know that men commit more crime, we know that men are convicted of more crimes but we also know that men get longer sentences then female criminals so it stands to reason that our legal system might be just a bit bias in regards to gender.

Yes, you can say more men are in jail but how many of those men have been wrongfully convicted? We don't know.

TheTinMenBlog · 2020-10-03T18:37:45+00:00

People often say this to discredit the fact that men are the main victims of almost all violent crimes.

I normally just ask them why the gender of the person committing the crime is of any relevance, it provides no solace to the victim.

Ask them if a man’s murder is less valid or important, because the person murdering him has the same gender. What about the same haircut? Or same colour eyes?

Remind them that an outfit does not condone a sexual assault, in the same way that a gender does not condone a murder.

People who say ‘but men are doing the crimes’ are just victim blaming and are really beyond talking to.

EpsilonFactor633 · 2020-10-03T17:26:35+00:00

I think the biggest logic flaw behind this statement is that people think that “most mass shooters, murderers, or whatever are men” is equivalent to “most men are mass shooters, murderers, etc.” They are not equivalent; actually, a very small proportion of men do anything remotely harmful. (By the way, this logic flaw drives me up a wall; back when I was teaching, I advocated a significant reduction in someone’s grade on a homework assignment or test every time they made this error; then I got the criticism that I was being unnecessarily harsh).

However, just warning you: a lot of people can’t seem to wrap their head around this concept for some reason.

Sewblon · 2020-10-03T18:47:40+00:00

My response is that its true that most crimes are committed by men. But its also true that its mostly committed by young poor men. (Edward Glaesier, Triumph of The City). People don't consider that as an argument that something is wrong with the mindset or culture of young people or poor people. So holding men to a different standard than those other two groups doesn't make much sense. Most people who murder Children are women. (UNODOC global study on child homicide 2019). Most people don't think that that means that something is wrong with women.

FightHateWithLove · 2020-10-03T20:58:36+00:00

Because men are considered hyperagents, society puts a lot of pressure on them to be the ones who accumulate wealth, use force to protect, and pursue romantic and sexual encounters.

Additionally, we usually ignore or diminish when women do any of those things.

So when we look at bad accumulation of wealth (stealing, fraud, etc), or bad use of force (violence, often misguided attempts to protect someone or something), or *bad pursuit of sex/romance (harassment or even rape) of course we're going to see more men doing it. And when women do those things, we are less likely to acknowledge it.

Furthermore, hyperagency makes society more likely to ignore and diminish those things whenever men are the victims.

Men as achievers/perpetrators and women as the victims/beneficiaries is the narrative we tell people to follow to see.

Memey-McMemeFace · 2020-10-03T19:15:27+00:00

Generally this is brought up to distract in a discussion about males being most of the victims, in which case:

And what difference does it make? Does a man suddenly feel relieved that the person currently murdering him is from the same gender? Why does it matter if men are committing more crimes?

Do note that whenever someone is bringing this up, they're trying to shift the discussion and victim blame an entire gender demographic, and it's your duty to call you out.

PsychoPhilosopher · 2020-10-03T20:47:14+00:00

I had this in a debate once and I asked a woman to come over to a nearby section of drywall.

I asked her what would happen if she slammed her fist into it. She was 5 foot nothing, and refused, quite rightly, on the basis that she'd probably hurt herself.

I asked the men to stand up, and pointed out that every one of them would be able to put their fist right through it with little difficulty.

I then pointed out that someone who breaks a wall is going to wear handcuffs, and someone who breaks their wrist is going to wear a cast.

The statistics here represent a huge disadvantage faced by men. Largely that the same actions result in completely different outcomes. Women who lose their temper are treated completely differently from men who do the same.

With the way prison systems work, and the impact it has on recidivism, it's no surprise that men end up committing more crimes overall. They're often already treated like criminals, so they're just living down to their social expectations.

czerdec · 2020-10-03T17:17:08+00:00

Women are the main perpetrators of violence against children. It's not even close.

Of course almost all men commit zero violence, but most women commit some amount of violence against children.

Leinadro · 2020-10-03T18:51:17+00:00

"Most violence is committed by men."

Counter: "The vast majority of men are not violent so why focus on men in general instead of specifically violent men?"

GalileosTele · 2020-10-03T21:43:23+00:00

Most violent crimes are committed by a man (like 70%) =/= men are likely to be violent criminals. Just as most infanticide is committed by a woman (over 90%) =/= women are likely to kill babies. Or most homicide is committed by a black person (like 55%) =/= black people are likely to be murders or have a "thug culture" as some idiots say. It's interesting how most people who make this type of argument are very quick to notice its flaws when it's used on their demographic or one they sympathize with.

The fraction of the population that will commit a violent crime in their lifetime is something like 5% (depending on how exactly you count). So regardless of the demographic, criminals are by far the exception. Plus most people who do commit a violent crime are 1 time offenders. They got into a one off bad situation and made a poor decision, never to repeat it again. The multiple offenders/career criminals are only a small fraction of the 5% who will commit at least one violent crime, and they account for something like 75% of all violent crimes (again depending on how you count exactly).

Most members of group X are from group Y does not imply most members of group Y are from group X. This is just logically false. But that has never gotten in the way of feminist statistics.

Plus in the case of men, while it might be true that the most likely person to harm a woman would be a man, the most likely people to protect women and sacrifice their own well being in the process are also men. And those men are the norm, and by far for numerous. And women know this instinctually, otherwise they would never look to men for protection, or expect men to provide them with a safe environment, or ask men to walk them home at night. That would be like bringing a shark in the water with you to avoid being attacked by a shark. They all understand, "If I run in to a dangerous criminal, it will probably be a man, but the best way to avoid such a man harming me, is to surround myself with other men; as most men would protect me instead of harming me."

PrincessofPatriarchy · 2020-10-04T00:03:04+00:00

It depends on the crime.

Take rape as an example. Women are the primary perpetrators of made to penetrate by a long-shot. If made to penetrate were counted as rape then their claim would be false, women are the primary offenders of rape against men.

Domestic violence? There is plenty of evidence for gender symmetry in domestic violence, it just gets ignored.

Historically, women had less access to public outside of the home which presented far less opportunity to commit crime. As women's freedoms have increased, all violent crime has been in a downturn but female violent crime has been steadily increasing.

A large part of this I imagine is also due to bias. Historical society believed that women were unfit for incarceration. Women also tended to become the victim on the stands, able to tell stories of abuse, sexual violence or other traumas in their past to gain sympathy from juries and judges. As society has become more egalitarian, women are likely being held more responsible for their actions and the crimes they commit than in the past.

The biggest factor for me personally, having gotten my degree in criminal justice and diving into a lot of this research is that we basically have no research on female offenders. Literature on every crime from rape to domestic violence is so focused on male offenders and female victims that when I attempted to write papers on the topic of female offenders I often could only find a handful of old research papers. To declare that we have insight on female violence and crime when we haven't even studied it seems a bit premature to me.

There was also the argument that women may be more likely to commit violence by proxy. Think of the stereotype, a girl getting her boyfriend to beat someone else up on her behalf. Sure, she didn't accost a bigger and stronger person herself but that doesn't mean that women don't sometimes leverage others to commit violence for them.

Russelsteapot42 · 2020-10-03T18:56:45+00:00

Sure Male victims of X aren't reported.

This is just the misandry version of 13/50.

frizface · 2020-10-03T20:34:50+00:00

For example, why are most crimes committed by men? Do women take a passive role in crimes?

Crime is a subset of bad behavior that includes more violent offenses than verbal or socially manipulative offenses. Gossiping can be as damaging as taking goods by force, but only one is a crime (as it should be). Men more likely to do bad things classified as crimes for evolutionary reasons exaggerated by how society is set up. I would go a step farther and say women are more passive in general and it's good to accept that if it can answer psyche-gnawing questions.

Are women innocent throught whole history, especially when it comes to atrocities like witch-hunts, slavery, wars, human trafficking, mass rapes, etc?

By virtue of having less power, of course!

mhandanna · 2020-10-03T22:58:01+00:00

Men commit xyz more? So what? Men also invent, create everything more too. So what?

Flawed logic.... as you can't have both sides. If you accept arguement men are main perps... the other side of the same arguement is that it is almost only men who invent (90% of patents per year are male), explore, create, discover, revoloutionise anything or even do anything of note, its probably a man.... all the amazing things upcoming in human progress, endless energy, AI, space travel for all... will it be 90% women doing it or 90% men who will create it?
Same logic, its pretty much only men doing all the saving too, 90% of heroes are men according to cargengie hero study, women aren't risking their lives to save strangers like men do.
Many crimes or bad beahviours are women majority. e.g. killing babies and infants, child abuse, FGM, slut shaming, pregancy and parenthood shaming, female body standards, bitching, gossiping etc.... whats your point? What does it matter?

Also main point, is obviously men commit certain crimes more. For example men and even boys are stronger than women, also men have a penis women don't so well of course women do rape or comit those crimes in large numbers but on a population level they will not be as much as men .... when women try and harm people thats why it is usually children, elderly, other women, or men that wont fight back... no shit, stats will be different, if one sex is weaker than even boys than its not going to be responsible for most violent crime is it?

2020-10-03T23:45:33+00:00

One way to look at it is that the system and the society we live in is broken and bad not the people.

Also I think men are more vulnerable to some of societies ills, such as poverty and the gun culture. Being vulnerable to being caught up in a life of crime is something that deserves some compassion.

I believe someone pointed this out, but I think our strengths can also be our greatest vices. The things that make men successful, such as risk taking, can also present itself as impulsivity.

eldred2 · 2020-10-04T00:08:03+00:00

Men are predominately raised and socialized by women. If they are acting poorly, it's women who taught them to do so.

czerdec · 2020-10-04T14:30:55+00:00

No, it's definitely NOT best to ignore extreme sexism. Precisely the reverse, in fact. Intense and highly critical sunshine on those people and their statements is vital.

Melthengylf · 2020-10-03T20:36:34+00:00

It is easy to answer.

I don't care about who is """guilty"""!!!! I care about change!!!!

Title	QUESTION: Do you have any good arguments against the "Men are the main perpetrators of X, especially against women"?
Author	Strikester101
Upvotes	58
Comments	59
Date	October 3, 2020 5:07 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/j4ipl4/question_do_you_have_any_good_arguments_against/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/question-do-you-have-any-good-arguments-against.1062724 https://theredarchive.com/post/1062724

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