What are the general rebuttals to "Men Commit the Vast Majority of Crime!" talking point?

OxygenWaster02 · 2022-09-23T14:11:42+00:00

A lot of it has to do with the pressure to provide. A notable amount of violent crime is perpetrated through the drug trade, a trade that usually preys upon disenfranchised men. Since men are forced to bear the burden of the provider role, things like the drug trade become an attractive income source for men who may rest towards the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder

TheRadBaron · 2022-09-23T17:43:26+00:00

When comparing along any other axis, reasonable people consider high crime rates as evidence of disadvantage. Poor people commit more crimes, racialized people commit more crimes, undereducated people commit more crimes.

This doesn't mean that high crime rates among men can be used as a gotcha to "prove" that men are overwhelmingly disadvantaged in general, but it does reveal the sloppy logic people might rely on here. High crime rates don't imply that a demographic is evil or privileged, to people with critical thinking. It implies risk taking behaviour, lack of opportunities and connection, desperation, bias from law enforcement, and so forth.

Peptocoptr · 2022-09-23T18:45:54+00:00

The people who say this shit usually consider themselves to be left wing (feminists). I essentially ask them how they have the audacity to call themselves left wingers despite blaming an entire demographic's high crime rates on thier own immutable characteristics and/or the toxic culture they create for themselves (toxic masculinity/patriarchy). Isn't that the EXACT thing we despise racist right wingers for doing? Why is it that for practically EVERY other instance of an immutable group being overrepresented in crime statistics and prison, you see it as evidence of thier powerlessness and oppression, but for men, you see it as the exact opposite?

devasiaachayan · 2022-09-23T15:45:10+00:00

Ofc Men will commit most crimes because Men actually are struggling to survive on streets. Most women won't be put into the bin by society to fight for themselves. And logically enough, Men who had a good upbringing and were given a good deal by the society mostly commit no crimes, in fact these men become the ones trying to sacrifice themselves against crime

CateHooning · 2022-09-23T16:29:36+00:00

"Does this mean men are responsible for other men that commit crimes?"

If they say yes usually I'll tie it back into the long history of racism in the feminist movement stemming from Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B Anthony because that's the real reason feminism as an ideology is anti male - they were originally repurposing pro slavery arguments to generally apply to all underprivileged men.

fndo84 · 2022-09-23T20:13:05+00:00

The main fallacy of this talking point is that, even though most offenders are men, the overwhelming majority of men are NOT offenders. Not even close to that.

Reseach has been consistently showing for decades that violent crimes are committed mostly by persistent offenders, an small subset of the population:

1945: University of Pennsylvania - about 6% is accountable for 52% of violent crime https://www.jstor.org/stable/986609?seq=1

1982: University of Pennsylvania (follow up study) - about 7% accountable for 61% offenses https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/86680NCJRS.pdf

2006: University of Cambridge - 7% accountable for half of all offenses http://www.crim.cam.ac.uk/people/academic_research/david_farrington/hofind281.pdf

2014: University of Gothenburg - 1% of population accountable for 63% of violent crime https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969807/#__ffn_sectitle

As numbers show, the percentage of men that are violent offenders is so low in comparison to the whole group that is plain misandry to stick the label of "criminal" to half of the world's population.

griii2 · 2022-09-23T15:01:18+00:00

Not a #1 rebuttal, but: not a single gangster, cutthroat or mafioso ever had a shortage of romantic and sexual partners because of moral reasons - rather the opposite.

So it seems that while women did not commit any of the crimes they were perfectly comfortable enjoying the spoils.

NanaLlama · 2022-09-23T19:44:19+00:00

44% of women voted for Donald Trump in the 2020 US election, which is actually up from the 39% of women who voted for him in 2016.

All of the millions of people who were harmed by Trump's presidency would not have been harmed if not for these women.

How would a left-leaning woman feel if I blamed her for the actions of these female Trump supporters? How would she feel if I grouped her with said women simply because they happen to share a gender?

How would a woman struggling to get an abortion in the US feel if I told her that she "did it to herself," considering she happens to share a gender with the women who put Trump in power? Even if that woman in question didn't vote for him?

Impressive_Male · 2022-09-23T16:30:29+00:00

To understand this we need to understand the reasons behind crimes. I also used to think that men are violent and bad and that's why they commit crimes but that's not the case which I understood by a detective serial in which that character explained his wife who said men are violent and women are pretty on which he said "You know female animals are more aggressive than male animals especially the one with kids and you know most wild male animals never take care of their kids, they just take care of pregnant females and after the pregnancy they just left them. It's just human male who has the pressure to provide and protect and earning bread in this world is a race, competition where you have to fight for each piece and here he is fighting for three pieces, one for him, one for his wife and one for his kid. Now he is taking two extra pieces in this critical condition, don't you think other men are going to attack him? What you women would have done if there was a diamond or bucket of water in the desert?"

a-man-from-earth · 2022-09-23T14:02:22+00:00

They also commit the vast majority of acts of heroism.

DouglasMilnes · 2022-09-23T18:02:57+00:00

Most crimes remain unsolved and nobody is ever convicted of them. Therefore for most crimes we do not definitively know the sex of the perpetrator.

The usual feminista rebuttal to this is that most people convicted of a crime are men. On the face of it, it seems reasonable to extrapolate that most crimes are committed by men. However studies show that men receive far harsher sentences than women for the same crime (in the UK, for example, if men were treated the same as women 5 out of every 6 men currently in jail would not be there). This in itself inevitably leads to police bias on top of the natural tendency do not blame a woman. So we really cannot tell from conviction statistics who it is is that really commits most crime.

Agreeable-Raspberry5 · 2022-09-23T13:39:27+00:00

That most men don't commit crime, and those who do are as likely to commit crimes against men, as against women?

danmilligan · 2022-09-23T16:51:07+00:00

You can point out that they'd never focus on racial crime differences because of nuanced underlying reasons. Men deserve the same consideration.

NimishApte · 2022-09-23T17:31:56+00:00

Black men form the majority of crime perpetrators. Your point?

Reddit1984Censorship · 2022-09-23T14:23:09+00:00

I would bet men are also the ones that commit the most of what i call ''anti crimes'' wich is putting themselves in harms way to save others.

Thing is is harder to study what ''doesnt happen'' vs what ''happens''.

Also the framing itself is misandrist, is not ''men commit the majority of crime'', the proper non sexist way to say it is ''criminals are majority male'' if that makes sense.

Blauwpetje · 2022-09-23T16:31:18+00:00

Men and women are different. Men are braver, more risk-taking, but also more violent. Trying to deny that won’t help us. But like some people already noticed, that’s also the way many women want them to be. Maybe not consciously and you cannot total control your erotic preferences, but nevertheless.

But at the end of the day: you can’t judge a whole sex (or whatever non-chosen group) by things that part of the group does. If the majority of violent people are men, it doesn’t mean the majority of men are violent. Like Paul Elam (whom I often disagree with) said in the Red Pill movie: ‘When it’s about men, it’s always about the 5% top career men and the 5% violent men, never about the 90% who struggle to lead a normal and pleasant life.’

Motanul_Negru · 2022-09-23T18:41:27+00:00

Don't know the reasoned rebuttals, and I don't think they, or anything else, helps with people who would stoop so low as to try to rub my face in a talking point like this.

Mostly I'd either avoid them altogether or talk down to them and challenge them to call the cops to have me arrested or removed, since I'm "obviously" part of a criminal group.

iainmf · 2022-09-24T05:56:17+00:00

There's no need to rebut this. The issue is that people use this to support their preconceived ideas.

I suggest saying something like: Yes that's true, it clearly indicates that society is letting men down if they feel desperate enough to commit crime. The solution is to care about men more.

It a fun game to say 'yes you are right, that's why we ned to care about men more' when you come across some misandrist arguing that men are terrible for some reason.

Additionally, it worth noting that having more men in prison does not mean men are more criminal, it just means that we catch and imprison more men.

psuedoscientist500 · 2022-09-23T16:16:23+00:00

The crimes women commit aren't reported nearly as much. The types of crimes committed between genders might be different, but the amount of criminal acts are fairly similar.

DifferenceThat8887 · 2022-09-23T17:29:29+00:00

Incentives, plus men are stronger.

Most public violent crime is socioeconomic, which tends to be male perpetrated because men select into provider roles. Women benefit from and encourage this kind of crime. The sex more responsible for protection and economic provision will always be overrepresented in crime. Men commit more crime for the same reasons there is more crime committed by African Americans.

Crimes such as random murder and rape in public places are male dominated because they depend on physical strength almost entirely (They are also rare)

Women engage in just as much coercive behaviour broadly conceived. Women also get away with crime more and are less likely to be charged which affects the stats somewhat.

Subversive · 2022-09-24T04:50:50+00:00

They should examine it through the same lens as statements like “black people commit much more crime than white people”.

Once you control for differences in socio-economic status, discriminatory policing, sentencing disparity etc, a very different picture begins to emerge.

Regular_Smoke_4920 · 2022-09-23T18:25:08+00:00

"13/50 but make it woke"

LeftyLucario · 2022-09-23T19:00:15+00:00

Same argument I use when people try to presume that I am a criminal for being a minority: we are also more likely to be victims of crimes.

SirCha0s · 2022-09-24T02:56:31+00:00

"Cool. Now let's talk about race."

genkernels · 2022-09-24T04:51:33+00:00

Acceptance:

Men commit more crime, or at very least more violent crime. Some men are bad. Society has no problem acknowledging the active role of men when negative, and that is a good thing in a vaccum. That doesn't change society being deficient when addressing the victimization of men. This deficiency is the primary thrust of male advocacy.

Additionally, just because some other men did a thing that ought not to cause us to consider just the suffering of an unrelated man. Collective guilt is evil.

--

Now in truth there are some deficiencies in society seeing men's active role in crime to exclusion women's active role in crime (men and women criminal pairs getting widely different sentences for example) -- and not sufficiently acknowledging less active roles crime -- but I view that as tangential to the point of the rejoinder in question.

Similarly there are societal reasons for men to commit more crime, but those reasons are not the sort of reasons that absolve the crimes in question, so I think answers to that effect are both less effective and get to the heart of the matter less.

As others have mentioned the rejoinder may also be incongruous with intersectionality theory which would generally see crime perpetration as a consequences of being underprivileged. But however incongruous the statement may be, the statement itself is flawed and that I think is more worthy of a response than trying to address the usual feminist shell-game.

hendrixski · 2022-09-24T12:49:30+00:00

"so wha?t".

The "male in male crime" people sound just like the "black on black crime" people. Most victims share traits with their perpetrators, and to use that to deny victimhood to an entire group is a form of hate.

McGauth925 · 2022-09-23T16:32:27+00:00

The answer is complicated. Women are part and parcel of the way we all interact in society, and help form motivations for men, just as men do for women.

Women want alpha males. Many of them don't have that much concern about how and where men become alphas, especially in regard to how they acquire the money to spend on women.

We are social animals who would be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BEINGS had we not spent a great deal of time, especially when young, around other people. And, women have quite a lot to do with raising boys, and helping to form our values and actions. Women have no problem pointing to men as the cause of the immoral things they do, but they seem to want to forget that when it's men behaving badly.

skllyskullstyle · 2022-09-23T20:27:28+00:00

The people who think like this are so close minded its actually terrifying. Imagine if i said "hispanics and black commit the majority of crimes". Then they would see how bad it is. Or if i say "women make 80 percent of divorces and they take money from their hardworking husnands who treated them like royalty" then they freak out.

AmericanBoy505 · 2022-09-23T20:14:13+00:00

I’ll just mention that it’s robbery or murdered related. It has nothing do with gender perception.

nerdboy1r · 2022-09-24T06:37:08+00:00

Such statistics are merely the reflection of the fact that the primary societal intervention for men's issues is to criminalise the outcome.

When faced with financial or mental struggles, men are afforded fewer options for improving their circumstances. When this leads to antisocial activity, we have historically only ever increased punishment as a deterrent for those activities. A leading example is the war on drugs, but this phenomenon is also at play in racial profiling, in so far as race has always been predictive of socio economic opportunity and intergenerational trauma.

Once involved in criminal activity, it is hard to escape. Once indicted for criminal activity, it is nearly impossible to escape. This is reflected by the majority portion of criminal offences being perpetrated by repeat offenders.

People may choose here to focus on violent crime disparities, however they fail to recognise that violent crime is most often preceded by non violent criminal involvement. Once you step outside the law, things tend to escalate, and you no longer live under the states monopoly on violence. Hence, you will eventually be required to defend or extend your criminally derived livelihood and well-being by any means possible.

The lacking support for male mental health and wellbeing also goes a long way towards explaining violent first offences that seemingly occur out of the blue. Secure housing, psychiatric assistance, financial assistance all preference female applicants. Single parents may be afforded more resources, but single parents are predominantly women due to society's valuation of fatherhood. That's another discussion in itself but it is a large contributor to the state of men in society, and to the criminal statistics in so far as women are afforded a secure escape through motherhood. However, I do not say this to trivialise the challenges they face.

Of those resources that men can access, we are uninterested in what keeps men from engaging with them. When they tell us what averts them from such non-criminalising interventions, we denigrate their responses and expect them to engage the same ways women do, disregarding the different social pressures ascribed by gender. In particular, mental health intervention is at fault here, but welfare and drug rehabilitation also fail to recognise men's preference for meaning, collaboration and decentralised emotional expression over the sense of safety and security that women tend to prefer.

Imo, so long as paternity and reproductive rights are biologically determined - and thus ascribed by gender in the main - all the above issues will persist. Many fathers did not consent to parenthood and were ill-positioned for such responsibility. We must arrive at a place where men equally consent to parenthood. Abortion rights are central to this, and I even consider the possibility of financial abortion in this space (though I am not entirely sold). We must increase the social valuation and support of fatherhood to equal standing with motherhood, while decreasing the requirement for providership. This will diminsh the sense that men must 'pull themselves up by their boot straps and do what must be done' - something drilled into men from a very young age. Changing our attitude towards fatherhood in this way would mean fewer young men feel spurned to get ahead by any means and disregard their own wellbeing.

If we do not opt for such a radical shift in values, then we must recognise and accept gendered differences in wellbeing and behaviour, and cater to both in equal measure. Improving workers rights and regulating the labour exploitation inherent to capitalism would provide less effortful, more profitable employment opportunities that are more attractive than criminal activity. It would also facillitate greater familial engagement for men and elevate the value of fatherhood. Increased funding for genuine efforts at rehabilitation and reintegration of criminal offenders would help stop the cycle of criminality. Increased research and public support for mental health interventions which are effective and attractive to men would increase their wellbeing and mental health.

skgody · 2022-09-24T08:59:44+00:00

We are living in a criminal based social construct. Everyone is a criminal by default. We are told what to think which in turn we go along with. This leaves us at the mercy of what policy is policed or in other words what is enforced. Then who it is enforced upon. Likewise we are told what crimes are major and what is minor. Many crimes done by men are no different than by women, it’s simply that men are more likely to be prosecuted and that drives the statistical evidence. Then we have other forms of biased reporting where the crime is gender specific such as rape. The findings of the internationaly renowned Dunedin study suggests men and women are just as violent and women were slightly more likely to sexually assault another person. Then we have rape laws which is only when a man is the perpetrator. So therefore only men can be rapists so the statistics suggest that no women rape and every rape perpetrator was a man. Some countries do similar with violence statistics by creating laws that are worded a certain way like male assaults female where they do not have a woman assaults man charge. These two examples can make men appear to be the violent and or rapists when they really are no worse than women.

Glittering_Stock6272 · 2022-09-24T12:18:16+00:00

That's not a talking point. That is an observation. There is no rebuttal in the sense that you can't prove it's false.

However, why it is that that statement is true could be discussed, and reasons or solutions could be found. I think this is what you meant by the question, but the way it was written could be misinterpreted.

triple_skyfall · 2022-09-26T07:39:22+00:00

People who have unlimited access to sexual & romantic partners (most women alive today) are probably less inclined to commit crimes.

Seethcoomers · 2022-09-28T20:42:39+00:00

The general rebuttal is that while men commit the majority of these crimes, that does not represent any individual man.

The more specific answer is that the socialization of men at every economic level supports some form of toxic masculinity. From mental health to dating to work to fighting, it's generally seen as the man's job to excel more. This means that when it comes to specific issues, problems men face are generally overlooked as a society and even so far as in between men themselves (because that's how they grew up).

Whenever I get into an argument about this, I always say that not only do more open conversations about male-centric issues provide healthier lives for men, it will also ultimately reduce the crime burden that affects everyone.

BloomingBrains · 2022-10-01T11:13:27+00:00

Its a small number of unusually aggressive and hyperviolent males that do not represent the majority of the male population committing the majority of those crimes. They are mostly repeat offenders. So it is not "men doing it to men" but "the worst men doing it to the rest of us good ones".

Also, men are driven to crime in poor areas more than women because of the protector/provider role. So a man may sell drugs or rob liquor stores because he feels he has to provide and he can't do it any other way.

But it also doesn't matter anyway. What if we lived in a world where women committed more crimes and I pointed it out? Is that sexist? Yes? Then why is it ok to point it out when its men?

Culosniff · 2023-07-29T06:19:57+00:00

It’s not misandrist. It is just simply statistics, facts, and history we learn from middle to high school. To say one hates men and to simply point out statistics are two very different things. Why are you so focused on trying to rebuttal and make a argument rather then fix the problem ? And ask questions is to why 90% crimes relate to men, and come together for a solution.

RexFx96 · 2022-10-01T05:40:36+00:00

Let's think for a second about the kind of men that are most likely to commit crimes. It's young men, likely without a father figure (or biological father in their life), who is improverished and pressured to take the role of the father to compensate and assist his single mother at home with a second income.

The other group of men who are most likely to commit crime are victims of abuse. The same is true of female criminals. But the key difference here is that delinquent men in juvie and jail is that their mothers neglected them or abused them. Their fathers are rarely cited as a factor. In fact, men who are abused by their fathers or other male figures in childhood are less likely to be violent and predisposed to crime but rather withdrawn, quiet, repressive and unambitious. So rather than becoming angry and violent, abuse by their father actually beats the violence out of them.

GorchestopherH · 2022-10-05T21:03:18+00:00

Traditionally male anti-social behavior is criminalized more severely than traditionally female anti-social behavior.

The things men are expected to do more frequently require behavior that we've criminalized.

A poor guy with no socioeconomic power is supposed to provide for himself and his partner, what's he going to do?

We also just don't really prosecute the kinds of crimes women do. People pretend female violence is a joke that can't exist, even if it's a case of assault or domestic violence.

Title	What are the general rebuttals to "Men Commit the Vast Majority of Crime!" talking point?
Author	Strikester101
Upvotes	67
Comments	94
Date	September 23, 2022 1:38 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/xlxv5g/what_are_the_general_rebuttals_to_men_commit_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/what-are-the-general-rebuttals-to-men-commit-the.1208707 https://theredarchive.com/post/1208707

Comments