I have an honest question.

Embogenous · 2012-05-30T04:21:37+00:00

A lot of negativity over at 2X has made me wonder what exactly [3] /r/MensRights is.

A forum for posting and discussing pretty much anything about men's rights. The antifeminism here almost always isn't anti-women's-rights; it's anti-feminist movement/idealogy. The only times it is are are with the small subsection of traditionalists, who aren't even misogynists, just believers in gender roles and the nuclear family (which I get, I just can't agree because it's so restrictive).

From polls and discussion, it seems clear that the biggest issue to this forum is father's rights, the unbalanced custody system and negative perceptions of fathers (such as pedophile hysteria and the perception men are abusers/women never are). Circumcision is also a huge one that always blows up into a colossal argument.

There are a lot of posts on "women behaving badly" - the idea is that there is a general perception in society that men are always the perpetrators, women always the victims, so the stories posted contradict that. Lately they've mostly been replaced with "women behaving badly and getting a slap on the wrist from court" which demonstrates both that and court bias. I don't really like them because there are too many, though.

There is a pretty massive, raging anti-feminism circlejerk. I think there are plenty of flaws (pushing really bad idealogy, a movement that essentially only cares about women, far, far too often dismissing men's concerns) but it annoys me that every time it's mentioned a bunch of people just have to jump in and scrap it out - and if you look, you'll see it's often the same small group of users. This is one of the main reasons for constant accusations of misogyny - people conflate "women" and "feminism" and assume disliking the latter is disliking the former.

The other reason is overgeneralizations of women - a lot of people here have been seriously hurt, which is how they were awakened to the notion of men's rights in the first place. That's why threads on marriage are often heavily critical, the men posting have been screwed over by the system and are against the entire institution. I wouldn't mind posting being a bit more tempered but I can't really blame anybody for being angry.

Here's a post outlining a bunch of men's rights issues (some on the sidebar).

khubla · 2012-05-30T03:02:08+00:00

I can't answer your question, but I can say this; thank you for asking. Your message is polite and reasonable. You are not accusing /r/MensRights of being sexists, you're simply asking a reasonable question.

I hope /r/MenRights responds in kind.

I should also note that there have been many false-flag operations where posters have expressed extremists opinions in the hope of painting /r/MensRights in a negative light. Please consider each reply on its own merits.

(edited for my appalling grammar and spelling)

Thanks again for your question.

rebelipar · 2012-05-30T05:00:58+00:00

I don't want to be obligated to child support when I'm not ready to have a kid if a condom breaks and the woman unilaterally decides to go through with pregnancy.

I don't want to be afraid of having a kid when I am finally ready for one because of the way mothers are heavily favored in custody disputes.

I don't want to be afraid of getting married because of the potential to be financially ruined by a divorce.

I want male victims of domestic violence and rape to be taken seriously not only by society but by law enforcement as well.

I don't want the mere accusation of rape to carry so much weight and have the potential to ruin a life.

I don't want men to be required to register for selective service when they turn 18.

I don't want it to be legal or socially acceptable to cut up baby dicks anymore.

These are just the things I can come up with off the top of my head right now and I'm probably missing a few other importing topics. You can say that women have historically "had it worse," but that is irrelevant even if true (which I don't agree with. it's true that women couldn't vote but then again they were never drafted either). You can probably think of some important issues that women face, but for virtually every one of them, men don't have it any better. Like for example, women wanting birth control being covered by insurance. Do men have anything like that? No. Do men have anything close to the equivalent to an abortion either? No. That is not to say that women shouldn't advocate for these things, but I'm fucking sick of the attitude that men should just shut up and take it every time they try to get their own problems addressed because women supposedly "have it worse." Because if anyone wants to seriously make that argument then they should shut up about first world problems altogether.

Celda · 2012-05-30T04:54:07+00:00

Here is a list, created by me, well-sourced and cited, of men's rights issues:

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/qmlqi/rehosting_this_comment_here_as_it_got_deleted/c3yr9e3

drinkthebleach · 2012-05-30T17:16:25+00:00

| Not going to lie--I didn't like the sound of "Men's Rights" when I heard it.

Didn't like the sound of.. men having rights?

typhonblue · 2012-05-30T06:35:29+00:00

I don't believe in a historical oppression of women.

First of all women's status in society has varied significantly throughout ages and in different cultures so we would have to specify which 'history' we're talking about.

If we're talking about the history directly preceding our own, women were their husband's wards in exactly the same way that parents are their children's wards today. This asymmetrical burden of responsibility on the man included him being punished for her wrong-doing(short of murder or treason), him being expected to support her financially (up to being imprisoned for any debt which occured), him being responsible for conscription and service to the state, and his financial responsibilities towards her not ending with divorce.

He did not have the right to do violence to her or mistreat her.

In exchange for service to the state in wartime a small percentage of men got the vote. This was not a right but a contractual exchange between the man and the state: 'you defend me, you get a say.'

In fact men still don't have the right to vote in many democracies (if you have to exchange service to the state for the vote, it's not a right by definition) while women do in all of them.

Men in the US still don't have the right to vote since being able to vote is contingent upon signing themselves up for selective service.

In fact in all countries around the world, women won the right to vote far before men did(when there was an official end to the expectation of service to the state in exchange for the vote), and as I said above, in many democracies women are the only ones with the right to vote.

I could go on, but I'll let you digest that.

2012-05-30T07:18:53+00:00

Issues I have include:

We have globally banned FGM. It's seen as a horrid and sickening attack on women's bodily integrity, and rightly so. So why is the same NEVER applied to circumcision? You're still violating a child's body, risking severe mutilation and even death, so what does it matter the gender of the child?
Prostate cancer. Australian Bureau of Stats has figures showing that both in pure numbers and as a percentage of yearly deaths, men are more likely to die of prostate cancer than women of breast cancer, yet no one gives a shit, and you see the Pink Ribbon literally EVERYWHERE.
Parental rights, parental leave and the like are utterly pathetic for men. Men have no rights to children, only responsibilities, and no one cares. Men suicide because they can't see their children, and no one cares (look up Thomas Ball), and yet if a woman did that, there'd be a bloody great outcry and a campaign to get her the children back. I know a lawyer who openly admits that he is happy to tell female clients to LIE about abuse just to get the kids.

Those are my big 3.

rightsbot · 2012-05-30T02:56:16+00:00

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AloysiusC · 2012-05-30T05:51:18+00:00

One way to realize the need for MR is to take some of the mainstream discussions about gender (from politicians,TV,news etc) and swap the words men and women or simply replace the word men with "black people" or "Jews". Then it becomes clear quite how anti-male our society thinks but doesn't notice it because there's no scrutiny of it.

Sure there's discrimination against women too but at least it's publicly treated as a problem we need to fix while discrimination against men is either ridiculed, seen as good or denied altogether.

glass_hedgehog · 2012-05-30T03:50:29+00:00

[permanently deleted]

TheyCalledMeMad · 2012-05-30T03:15:38+00:00

Everybody here will tell you something differently.

For me, this forum represents the belief that men deserve to be treated as human beings and women need to be treated as adults.

At this point in time, there are many organized groups that push for female supremacism in our society and they have been wildly successful. As a result, laws, legislation, and the cultural narrative perpetuate a situation where men are forced to bend over to become a pedestal for women.

dragonsandgoblins · 2012-05-30T06:56:28+00:00

Something you seem to have asked repetitively is why the name "Men's Rights", or at least that's the impression I am getting. You are a believer in equality and you wonder why we feel the need to separate and focus on Men's Issues.

The main reason is nobody else is. There are numerous gendered issues that affect either men or women, and women have feminist lobbies, organisations, women's centres etc. all readily available to them.

Look at the death rate of prostate and breast cancer now look at the difference in spending on them.

Men don't really have access to the same resources, there aren't government programs and private foundations built around making sure we are represented and treated fairly. For example why was there a VAWA as opposed to a non-gendered equivalent? Why did nobody argue that it left male victims behind and failed to address female perpetrators of violence?

Well Men's Rights did.

We believe in equality, but have realised that we need Men's Advocacy for things to be equal.

hardwarequestions · 2012-05-30T03:09:49+00:00

Genuine inquiry should always be respected.

Most of us could go on for pages about our beliefs, positions on issues, etc. Perhaps it best to ask for our stance on something specific?

Other than that, my default statement is that society has turned a blind eye to the issues men specifically face and a movement is needed to rebalance things to a truly equal distribution of societal effort between the genders.

thrway_1000 · 2012-05-30T03:57:06+00:00

Egalitarian MRA here. Just want the laws and justice system treat everyone the same. That divorces and custody are treated equitably. That the human rights of both males and females babies and children are respected and we stop cutting the genitals without their consent (adulthood since children can't consent). That we push for real science over ideology or ideologically biased science. I'm sure there are other things too but that's all I can think of at the moment.

sixofthebest · 2012-05-30T05:06:45+00:00

Your honest question can be answered by an honest reading of this subreddit. Posting thread like this will inevitably lead to debates and arguments, not that it is necessarily bad just there isn't much to argue about when you haven't be informed on men's issues.

N69sZelda · 2012-05-30T17:24:14+00:00

I just want to say that while some may get annoyed I think that every single person that is curious should ask. I think it is great. I really am all about equality. I feel the same way about gender equality as I do about civil rights issues with regards to race. I want things just to be equal - not legislated. Its a complicated issue but at heart I LOVE women and would ALWAYS side with them first.

Collective82 · 2012-05-30T07:30:17+00:00

I will nit pick some of yoru stuff you say and if other readers responded already my apoligies on this.

Men can serve on the front lines

Please don't mix up responsibility and privilage.

Men have acting/singing/etc careers past the age of 40

cher, whoopi goldberg, Meryl Streep, Sandra Bullock, rosanne, and many more!

Men aren't hyper-sexualized to the point where it is impossible to find a real man on the cover of a magazine

Thats actually a womans fault not a mans if you think about it. Men seem to be desired for their simple plain looks or rugged looks, that is what is portrayed by what a woman wants a man to look at so men conform to that. Just like a lot of guys like to look at women that appear a certain way so they get portrayed as that. Thats a societal issue and not all mens faults.

When Hilary ran for president, there was a lot of "Women can't lead a country!" bullshit going around

I heard more that she already ran the country for 8 years or that she was just a bitch than anything. Oh and that every 30 days she would start a war, then again I was in the military at the time so my jokes are slightly more biased that way.

Here are a few stories to look at as well about issues men have women don't: false rape in 2006 rich men earn their money, women divorce for it women can do no wrong and get paid /s Rob men over child custody

I picked more high profile cases to show you that if the rich cant get help what help can we expect.

But also check out /r/femraforum, we are trying to get a open forum for people to discuss solutions and not problems.

hardwarequestions · 2012-05-30T04:05:19+00:00

are we sufficiently addressing what you wanted to at this point G_H?

is there anything specific you hoped we could cover?

shonmao · 2012-05-30T07:27:57+00:00

I think you are doing well. I got started in this because I really really tried to figure out how to deal with the idea of 'rape culture' and 'enthusiastic consent'. I found that it was on its face hostile to me and didn't take into consideration marginalized men or BDSM culture. I like Clarisse Thorn for her writings on this, though she identifies as a feminist.

My family has had to deal with at least two misandric teachers (one a college professor another a Jr. High Teacher). I personally recently dealt with a female rape survivor who aimed a very hostile rape joke at me during a book club discussion. I would say that many members of the mensrights movement have actually either been damaged by the actions of women or have had friends, brothers, sons, husbands affected by the culture favoring women. You can find some at /ladymras.

he first thing you did well was be respectful of the male safe space.

I would say that many feminists confront the manosphere by saying that they are also for mens rights, and then proceed to tell us our problems don't exist, or are not as important or completely untrue in spite of supporting evidence from actual biology or newer scientific studies into behavior. It would be like someone going to an AA meeting saying, "I support you guys being sober. But I'm gong to be here doing shots." The second thing you did right was disavowing ties to feminism, since we get so much comment how they care for us but don't display that in action. The third good behavior was that you came in with new information and expertise. The fourth thing that you are doing well is that it does take a probationary period (even for men) to go through acceptance. That's what you are experiencing now. I see some disagreements with other members, but you are keeping cool. You are already doing much better than the other poster who crossposted from 2X with the trite poster.

DejaBoo · 2012-05-30T07:42:36+00:00

I'm not going to speak for this sub or for others. If conrnered I consider myself a humanist. Both Feminism and MRA both state they are for equal rights and opportunities for men and women. If the feminist movement was true to this ethos and followed it passionately there would be no need for Men's Rights Activism.

But, like all people, feminists tend to focus on issues they think are the greatest importance and that is simply what benefits them -- women. That is the reason there is a need for this sub and such activism -- to counterbalance this inherent bias.

Many feminist leaders have acknowledged issues concerning men, but have led their powerful lobbying groups (feminists) still focused only on issues concerning women. When challenged such leaders have been quoted with such statements as, "When Rape is no longer an issue, then we will focus on the needs of men."

And this is why I am not a feminist. Rape will always be an issue in our society. Women have gained so much power in the last 50 years, mainly because they started asking for it. There is no REAL oppressive conspiracy against women and they have made great strides to the point I would argue the pendulum has swung in their favor (more reason why I support this sub and the population it serves). But like all groups, they want more power and will keep focused on any issue that demonstrates their is reason for their existence. A great example is the percentage of CEO that are men, however, feminism does nothing for the 75%+ of the homeless population that are male. But get this, they do for females facing homelessness.

So in short, feminism as a lobbying power is sexist. However, that does not mean there are not really good feminists who do follow the ethos of equality for both sexes. However, sadly, academia and mass media are focused on the plight of women and therefore much of the data concerning issues and articles are bent towards women. I cannot stress how much this warps the view of average person's perception on men and women issues regarding equality.

Feel free to try and research how many men are raped a year that is contested to be more than women because of our (USA's) prison system. The male issue is a non issue. Our culture is one that protects women from harm (protect the family--protect the mother) with the duty of sons and husbands to sacrifice there bodies and lives (e.g., work injuries and death, suicide, military service, drafted into war, etc.).

And now, enough men are waking up but sadly they are rather poor at politics and organizing to make real cultural front. This sadly gives MRA a bad rep when a "lone wolf" gets upset and yells at a camera :(

If you want a real enlightening view of how bent society has become towards female oppression I found this video to be over all well articulated. Women, in the western civilization, have been greatly honored and protected. They are, after all, the center of civilization and the key sex for success of our species. This "protectivism" has been challenged with modern era where all people have such a better standard of living and longer healthier lives (e.g., decrease in birthing mortality rates and complications). Cultural speaking, this protectiveness remained until women chose to challenge it and is now deemed as an "oppressive patriarchal society" we live in. I really don't believe that is true, its just such a huge cultural shift on how our society functions doesn't happen over night.

Please take time to watch this video, Cheers!

glass_hedgehog · 2012-05-30T14:14:13+00:00

Mensrights is not what many think it is. It is not a reaction to feminism. Mensrights is a reaction to the unfair treatment and demonization of anything characteristically male or masculine. It is a reaction to the widespread view that all men should be viewed as potential rapists and that rape is a crime commonly committed against females. It is a reaction to the widespread belief that females are unable to commit rape (current definition is exclusive to forcibly penetrating a man's anus and does not include forced vaginal intercourse) or domestic abuse.

Mensrights is the voice saying "what about us?" in a serious way. This is often satirized (unjustly in my opinion) by primarily feminist groups. Mensrights is accused of being anti-female or pro-patriarchy. Neither of these statements are true. If you look at some well-known male activists Barbarossaaaa @ youtube (Disclaimer: His views are not exclusively or implicitly attributed to all of us) you can see they explicitly oppose the patriarchy, and a 5 minute view of the majority of comments here should convince of the lack of true misogyny.

edit: I would like to add that commonly debated topics include father's rights/responsibilities in the legal system, circumcision of non-consenting infants and the bias toward conviction in violence/theft/sexual assault cases. In addition the lack of science aimed towards improving men's health rather than "figuring out why men rape and pillage"

In order to summarize (tl;dr): mensrights hopes to be a group that stops the everyman from getting trampled by a feminist attitude of "me me me". It attracts extremists for sure, it attracts misogynists for sure, but so does everything else with a message.

Hamakua · 2012-05-30T14:52:28+00:00

Girl Writes What does an amazing videoseries that most detractors to the MRM (Men's Rights Movement) have a hard time ignoring.

This particular video gives a very good overview of what you are inquiring about. She is a regular on these forums and also sometimes goes over to XX to fight the good fight.

bookishboy · 2012-05-30T20:15:22+00:00

"Men's rights" does not mean patriarchy. It means equality. At least, I think it does.

I tend to think of Men's Rights as "Advocacy for equal rights, for men."

To state it this way is significant in 2 ways:

Equal rights does not necessarily mean equality of outcome. You can give everyone equal rights and still have vastly different outcomes in both negative and positive areas.... financial/political achievement, survival rates, likelihood of being a victim of a crime, etc. I used to argue (both of us respectfully) with an ex who was generally fair-minded but also fairly strongly feminist, and who tried to sell me on feminism.... "Feminism is about equality. So if you believe in equality, you are a feminist, even if you didn't realize it yet." Except she didn't define equality as being entitled to equal rights.... she kept using a term called "Substantive Equality", which meant in practical terms that we needed harsher laws to protect women from rape, laws to enforce parity of pay because if women overall were making less money due to a concept of the "average female worker" vs the "average male worker". She also didn't express any interest in using the law to force women into higher risk (but often higher earning) professions in order to even out workplace injury and death rates, or re-defining "rape" to include women as perpetrators.
Although many MRA's tend towards egalitarianism, the purpose of Men's Rights Advocacy is exactly that: Advocating men's rights up to the point of equal rights. We don't make any bones about it, and we don't try to fool any would-be converts that Men's Rights Advocacy is about equality for everyone, so if you're in favor of equality, you're a Men's Rights advocate. I honestly think that if Feminism as a movement is capable of (a)reigning in or excommunicating/denouncing their more radical members(and here I'm talking about RadFems who advocate violence against males, male extermination, sex-selective abortion, etc), and if they can (b)agree to advocate for equal rights rather than equal outcomes, and (c)cease trying to portray Feminism as anything other than advocacy for Women's Rights.... then both groups could move forward, at times arm-in-arm, at times disagreeing about policy implementation, but overall each attempting to watch out for the rights of its own sex and each hoping to land somewhere fairly close to middle.

Lotus7 · 2012-05-30T06:41:37+00:00

For me personally, it's about addressing issues that either affect men specifically, or areas where there's an imbalance that needs looking at. So, this mainly centres around:

1) Circumcision, or rather, making circumcision on infants illegal, except for specific medical reasons. Cultural/religious cirumcision is disgusting.

2) Custody laws, i.e. giving fathers the same rights at mothers, instead of treating them like a spare part.

3) Addressing imbalances in crimincal sentencing, i.e. men and women being given the same punishment for the same crime, and also with regards to Domestic Violence, men as victims being taken seriously.

4) Addressing imbalances in healthcare spending. Here for example (UK) there's a massive bias in favour of women.

That's pretty much it. I'm for equality for everyone, but any group I find that claims to push for equality only seems to push for it from a women's perspective, so MensRights is a good place to help push on issues that mainly affect men.

Title	I have an honest question.
Author	glass_hedgehog
Upvotes	33
Comments	146
Date	May 30, 2012 2:55 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ubhtd/i_have_an_honest_question/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-have-an-honest-question.1020825 https://theredarchive.com/post/1020825

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