Masculinity

vegibowl · 2012-05-22T16:36:17+00:00

This is a tough issue.

I can't speak for everyone on this forum, but I am concerned about:

males being taught that masculine traits are evil, and feminine traits are good
males seeking female approval over their own physical and mental well-being and self-interest
males putting females on a pedestal and throwing other men under a bus for her "protection"
males unquestioningly buying into Feminism, thus inspiring them to throw other men under the bus
the dark side of human nature being labeled "masculine"
males being socialized into ignoring male pain & hardship

None of these things forbids men from engaging in traditionally "girl" behaviors, or vice-versa. Nor does it only criticize "feminized" men. Some of the worst white knights strongly demonstrate some masculine characteristics. Lastly, males expressing emotion is not a demonstration of femininity. Emotions are human, not feminine.

dakru · 2012-05-22T16:35:55+00:00

I see pressure going both ways and I don't like either pressure. I personally am very interested in weight-lifting and strength training, a traditionally male domain, and I am also very interested in fashion (dressing well, not high-art fashion), a traditionally female domain. There are those who hate all things "masculine" and would scorn the weight-lifting, and there are those who hate the "feminisation" of caring about how you look.

I understand the connection that weight-lifting might have to masculinity (men progress faster and get stronger) and the connection that fashion has to femininity (looks tend to be more important in a women), but neither should be at all exclusive to either; women can still get a hell of a lot stronger and men can still benefit from wearing better looking clothes. I'd like to see more women get into lifting and more men care about fashion; they're both just really cool.

karmasutur3 · 2012-05-22T20:28:50+00:00

Hrm.

I was raised with a family that came from a ranching background. I was never taught that women were less than men, but rather I was taught that men chose (that's an important word) to do the hardest work in many cases.

This meant that men were afforded an immense amount of respect. Rather, anyone who chose to do the difficult, self-sacrificing things were offered a level of respect that I don't often see outside that 'culture' I grew up in.

I usually shy away from descriptions of masculinity here, discussions of it. I'm not sure it has a place in the MRM.

But something interesting that your question brought up was that sooner or later, as we move towards a more egalitarian society in both our fight and the fights of other groups, the fact that will remain is this:

Someone has to choose to do those self-sacrificing things. Whether we share the load, or not, it is necessary for the functioning of society. (Until we create an army of slave robots to do it for us) . I think that until that time, men will continue to mostly (or nearly completely) shoulder this particular burden.

Going back to your question, I'm less worried about the feminization of males in modern society than others here. I feel instead lucky to not have been pushed into that role, or gone down that road.

But what I would like to see is an acknowledgement (via respect) of self-sacrificing and supportive acts and work in our society, regardless of who undertakes them.

Garbage workers, construction, healthcare, industry, research and many fathers fall into that category, and there are much more.

The feminist institution has equated respect with power, and i reject that premise. They don't offer respect , fearing that it will lessen the power of the female in the social interaction.

Growing up, I was raised to behave around adults, particularly men of higher status as if I were holding them in the highest respect. Almost like a dog with a tail in between it's legs. I didn't even speak to my father unless spoken to unless we were all alone in the house, with just the family. If I did something like misbehaved or broke something, I was hardly reprimanded. But were I to speak back to my father the punishment was intense.

When I turned 18 this all changed, and I was surprised how quickly. Now I was afforded the most of that respect - because I was doing some self-sacrificing things, or at least I was old enough to. Now that I'm older, I'm offered the full respect of the men and women in my family.

I'm giving this a very short description, and I'm leaving out females who do these things, and also much of the details, but my concept of masculinity does include this. The cowboys I was raised by (and I suppose that I am still now) never looked down on shows of emotion, shows of weakness, or anything they might have been into that wasn't typically male (my father can sew up a storm!). But part of our masculinity was defined by making those choices to undertake the difficult, dangerous, and self-sacrificing tasks-

-and the reward was respect.

As a parent I'd like my daughter to be free to play Barbies or go hunting with dad (or both!). I'd like my son to have that same freedom.

I have two sisters. One went just about as feminine as you could be (she's now an artist, barbie dolls and fashion was a big deal to her). The other is a cowgirl who is a much better horseman than I am, and she can do tasks that most strong men can't. She ropes, loads trailers, drives backhoes and heavy equipment.

So in a culture that was arguably very traditional in some senses, the women were never pushed in one direction or the other. And:

I see something that appears contradictory to me. Some of you seem to be disappointed in the feminisation of males in Western society, while others appear to feel that men are forced to conform to an emotionless stereotype.

I'm personally disappointed that men are feminized: but not because they no longer think muscle cars are the coolest, or because they show emotion. I'm disappointed that they are taught to hate themselves for being born as male - taught they are to be vilified and that their gifts are bad - and that women are inherently superior.

The emotionless stereotype doesn't conflict with this, because when a man that has been told he is less than chooses to support a family, a woman, or take a difficult job that is dangerous - he's again punished. He's not afforded any respect for his choice, and then if he feels that this is shitty, his complaints are met with backlash from feminism - He's less than, he's not a woman, so he better not complain because after all- he's the one with the supposed patriarchy, all the supposed power. How dare the one with all the power complain that he is mistreated!

Just to TL:DR - I think feminism has, in the name of lessening male power, attempted to strip 'masculinity' of the cultural respect it is afforded. Since you asked, I think bringing back the respect for our self-sacrificing members in the harder jobs of society (whether men or women) is going to be needed. Since those actions are most likely going to continue to be occupied by men, I'd like to see that choice , and the resultant respect it's supposed to afford, being brought back. I don't think it causes problems with gender roles on either side of the fence.

vegibowl · 2012-05-22T16:44:53+00:00

I've been noticing this too.

Personally I think any 'feminisation of males' is wrong. I think the freedom to be, what we would call, 'feminine' is good. Forcing it on males, or females, is not good - neither is forcing, what we would call, 'masculinity'.

The freedom to act however you like (as long as it doesnt hurt others, of course, hopefully that goes without saying!), without pressure, is good. Pressure to be either 'feminine' or 'masculine', depending on your genitals, is not fair.

There should be no standard on either sex when it comes to being 'feminine' or 'masculine', and it being considered 'bad' if you don't reach that. No one should be considered 'bad at their sex' for anything. They are the sex they are and want to be, and they are the gender they are.

There should be standards of behavior for humans in society, but not when it comes to sex/gender and 'femininity' or 'masculinity'.

Ragnrok · 2012-05-22T19:45:06+00:00

It's all about choice. I think I speak for most MRAs when I say we want our sons and brothers to be able to race dirt bikes and play poker or wear purple and cry about things that make him sad, or any combination of those things, without being ridiculed by feminists for being too masculine and without being ridiculed by old-fashioned types who think men should be manly.

So now I'm gonna go crank out about a hundred pushups and then tell my girlfriend how wonderful my life is thanks to her, and fuck anyone who judges me for either of those things.

hyperstupid · 2012-05-22T17:50:31+00:00

I'm gay, so for my community the word 'masculinity' has certain connotations. We use the word 'masculine' interchangeably with 'butch', 'muscular', or otherwise.

There's a faction within the gay community that feels the term is disingenuous, citing that being masculine has more to do with being male than it does with being 'butch'.

The problem, as I understand it, is with language and not intention. Most people can get the gist of a person's opinion when they use the term 'masculine', depending on context and more.

If I ever have a son, I'll teach him that only stuff like the following will be classified as 'masculine' to me:

Having a deeper vocal resonance than most females.
Having a different upper body muscle composition than most females.
Having a penis.

The following is the kind of stuff I won't tell him is strictly masculine:

Wearing jeans.
Having short hair.
Playing football.
Chewing tobacco.
Crushing anything with your forehead.

The problem for me is that 'masculinity' is both a disposition (being male) and a behavior category (being butch) so it becomes difficult to discuss.

CedMon · 2012-05-22T16:33:12+00:00

The difference is that the Traditionalist MRAs want gender standards while the Moderate MRAs want no gender standards.

ghebert001 · 2012-05-22T17:10:41+00:00

I think with the objection to men being feminized we want to be able to express our emotions when we feel the need to but without the expection to do so. I don't want to express my feelings because it's expected of me but because it's what I want to do.

drinkthebleach · 2012-05-22T17:57:40+00:00

This needed to be said, thanks.

zyk0s · 2012-05-22T19:18:16+00:00

Gender roles didn't appear out of nowhere: they evolved as a means to structure communities and build civilizations, and came from "the mean". By that I mean gender roles emerged because the average man was physically and psychologically better equipped for traditional masculine roles, while the average woman was physically and psychologically better equipped for traditional feminine roles. This is something we shouldn't try to deny. But we have changed quite a bit socially, and acknowledged that a simple model like this leaves out people who fall outside of these averages. We now can afford to relax the constraints, and do exactly what you said: do what we are comfortable with. Society won't collapse now if men stay at home and women do physical labor, as long as that's what they want to do and aren't forced into it.

The feminisation of men isn't about them conforming to female roles, but rather about them loosing traits that are seen as masculine because of the new negative connotation associated with them, while still being expected to stick to male gender roles and perform them just as well. People who are disappointed by this feminisation feel that releasing them of roles won't be afforded (people will still think of labor intensive jobs as "man's jobs", initiation of courtship will still fall onto men, stay-at-home dads will be riddiculed) so we should work on keeping the masculine traits. Others have the opposite view: that you can't change who a person is, and that it's the social perception that needs to be changed. Ultimately both camps agree that there must be a consistence and cohesion, that you can't eat your cake and it it too, can't ask for equal rights and demand additional privilege, can't deride masculine traits and then laugh at a crying man.

My opinion: works needs to be done on both fronts (and hope to find an equilibrium along the way), but let individuals decide how they want to lead their lives.

Cartesian_Duelist · 2012-05-23T02:06:16+00:00

'Feminization' is a loaded word. It implies that men taking up more stereotypically female traits is inherently a bad thing.

'Emasculate', on the other hand, is to deprive someone of their gender identity, and to shame them for it.

vegibowl · 2012-05-23T12:22:40+00:00

I'll take a shallow and vain example:

I'm the kind of guy that would be labelled as hirsute. and by that I don't just mean that my beard is thick, but that from the bottom of my neck down to my toes is fairly hairy.

Some of my female friends, when discovering this, would very often suggest that I wax or shave my chest because that's more attractive, allegedly.

Fuck that.

This argument is astonishing, because it comes from people who go through all the suffering and torture associated with "beauty" that the media has made a societal norm, and they want me to go through with this too? That's when you realise that what some women want isn't equality per se, but that men get to pointlessly suffer too.

Well no, I will not shave or wax because men have started to be made insecure and ashamed of their own masculinity. The very same phenomenon that vogue and cosmo brought to the female crowd is now happening to the male crowd, and nobody seems to fucking realise.

This is something that bothers me the most, when people think that equality doesn't mean improving the life for everyone, but instead think it means spreading the misery to all.

memymineown · 2012-05-22T17:44:21+00:00

There is a vocal minority here that seems to believe that social roles should regress back to where they were 100 years ago.

But I believe that most readers here agree with you.

TheSacredParsnip · 2012-05-22T16:25:51+00:00

I think you should be the person you are and if people don't like it then fuck them. Someone will like you for who you are and someone will probably sleep with you for who you are. If not, then why would you want to be with them? Why would you want to change for someone else?

People who complain about the feminisation of men in Western Society typically strike me as people who use terms like alpha and beta. I have no time for people like that. Be who you are and let others be who they are.

rightsbot · 2012-05-22T16:08:17+00:00

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AnthonyZarat · 2012-05-22T19:09:50+00:00

Welcome vegibowl. The distinction has to do with WHO makes the decision:

1) Every person has a right to define themselves anyway they want to. A man can be "feminine", and a woman can be "masculine".

2) No person has a right to denigrate or disparage an identity. When a feminist uses terms like "toxic masculinity", he or she does enormous harm.

MRAs must fight for masculin identity because masculin identity is under attack. Many of us are non-hetero, many of us have chosen part or all of our personal identity to be "feminine". However, when feminists disparage masculinity, they dehumanize half of the human race (including many women who have chosen masculinity as part, or all, of their identity).

For example, the drugs Ritalin and amphetamine are commonly used to suppress masculinity, for the benefit of people around the patient (rarely, they are also used to treat genuine disease, for the benefit of the patient).

Cases where Ritalin/amphetamine are administered by compulsory mandate of the K-12 school system:

80% are boys

20% are girls

This tells you that 80% of the victims of feminist dehumanization are male, and 20% are female. These are not "patients", because the drug is administered for the benefit of the school, not for the benefit of the student. These are victims. Note that not all are male. Feminist violence wounds boys disproportionately, but it also wounds girls.

rensin · 2012-05-22T20:43:50+00:00

my gf and I agree there are two types of traits: * natural traits * constructed traits

Natural traits: what is natural to a particular gender intuitively and biologically. Constructed traits: alterations or adaptation of natural traits to suit a particular environment.

my gf and I keep debating what is natural and what is constructed but here are some example we think work.

Natural (male) trait: Competition and Occasional aggression.
Same natural trait constructed: Most Men like sports, because it is an outlet, so i play rugby for example.
natural (female) trait: Finding the Alpha male in personality and capital.
Constructed (female) trait: Being submissive, so the men can compete and the alpha can come take care of her. (in Poland this is still quite prevalent, not so much in the states, but constructs change and that is the idea)

also, she prob wont like me putting this up here. but here it goes: that is why domination between to male - female genders is so intense and a major kink that a lot of people practice. of course that stays in the bed room.

blazedaces · 2012-05-22T23:08:34+00:00

A relevant story from my childhood:

When I was between the ages of 5-7 I was attending an after-school (or after-preschool) class at a local gymnasium. I was still a bit of a crybaby at that age, but I really don't think any more than normal. At the end of the class they are supposed to hand out small medallions or something to show you finished successfully.

My teacher had called me a cry-baby a few times before that when I was crying. When my teacher got to me instead of pulling out the medallion he pulled out a diaper and said something along the lines of "you don't deserve a medallion, you get what all cry babies get"...

He was fired that day, thankfully. I can only remember two things from that gymnastics class. The fact that I could climb all the way to the top of the hanging rope and ring the bell (it was a 2-3 story building) and this moment... This event is certainly not the only factor, but today I hardly ever cry. It has been more than a year since I last did, and in general I have a very hard time expression any emotion or discussing my emotions with others.

As for masculinity, I personally feel that most words with extremely vague definitions tend to be used to justify anything. Masculine, feminine, normal, weird, natural. These are all words used often to either insult or compliment others. But it is because they are so vague that they have lost nearly all meaning.

I believe you should be whatever you want to be and no one should have the right to tell you otherwise. While I don't believe gender is an entirely social construct, I also don't believe gender roles need be strictly defined. I also strongly disagree that just because people have acted in a certain way in the past, that this is necessarily a good a reason to force someone to act that way in the future.

oRyan_the_Hunter · 2012-05-23T03:24:50+00:00

I don't know what's already been said, but it seems kind of similar to the female sexuality predicament. You're either a prude or a slut. Same with guys; if you express pain or emotional instability and don't "man up" you're a pussy. opposite is that we shouldn't be emotionally restrictive because then we're stone walls. This example may not be air-tight, but you can at least get the idea.

Demonspawn · 2012-05-22T16:24:10+00:00

Some of you seem to be disappointed in the feminisation of males in Western society, while others appear to feel that men are forced to conform to an emotionless stereotype.

Some people believe in standards of behavior, others naively think that a society without standards can be functional.

Bobsutan · 2012-05-23T00:59:42+00:00

Watch this video in full as for where some of this comes from:

http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/05/22/london-real/

Presenting their true selves can really not be in their best interests because of fear of how women will view them. And a lot of guys have history that backs up this fear.

One of the things he said, having your happiness be internally generated, that's a huge deal and really makes a big difference but a lot of guys are so afraid of what others will think of them.

Title	Masculinity
Author	vegibowl
Upvotes	62
Comments	86
Date	May 22, 2012 4:07 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/tzesa/masculinity/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/masculinity.1021308 https://theredarchive.com/post/1021308

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