Men | ContraPoints

iainmf · 2019-08-24T06:16:19+00:00

I watched this video so you don't have to:

The reason we are being visited by some new faces is that she includes a screenshot of this sub and says to talk to each other on Reddit.

The main points.

She listened to the Audiobook of The Myth of Male Power
Accepts that men have a restricted gender role
Says that men are either ignored or treated as dangerous
Recognises that women's perceived vulnerability can make them powerful
Says that gender isn't working anymore and men are confused about their role
Says that feminists are telling men most of the aspirational versions of manhood are toxic and bad
She sees men's issues as a crisis of male identity
She says men are suffering from existential angst from a lack of purpose and this is partly due to being privileged. An oppressed group has something to fight against and that gives them purpose.
She says the lack of purpose puts men in search for a struggle and this makes them vulnerable to the Alt-right and the manosphere.
She says that it is no coincidence that mass shooters are male. One interpretation is that the shooters are trying to find glory in battle. Also, shooters, have racist motives or incels feel sexually entitled.
Men learn these behaviours and without a positive male identity, these problems will continue to occur.
She sees that the Lefts solutions to men's problems are not very good
- Can't rely on the Marxist revolution to improve men's class oppression anytime soon
- Feminisms "tranquiliser of toxic masculinity" (love that wording) tells men you're lonely and suicidal because you are toxic. Tells men they are broken without telling them how to fix themselves.
Contrapionts solution is a new positive vision of manhood. But that is something for men to sort out for themselves.
Notes that of the left a men's movement is equated with a backlash to feminism and misogyny
(posts a screenshot of r/mensrights) Says posting outrage porn about rape accusations and paternity fraud won’t make your life any better. Those things are horrible but they are not systemic issues that affect most men
She thinks the solution is a positive vision of 21st-century manhood

----

My response:

Contrapionts is basically like a politician at a homeless shelter. Pretending to be concerned and repeating back what they are saying but offering nothing of value, or any positive change.

All of the issues that she identifies in the first half of the video get replaced with her preconceived ideas about the cause of men's issues in the second half. For example, she says that it sucks to either be seen as dangerous or be ignored, them talks about how dangerous men are and tells us we are on our own, we have to find our own way.

It is rather convenient, that her conclusion doesn't require any effort on her part. telling men to find their own way sounds a lot like feminism's 'go fix yourselves' rhetoric that she criticised.

It also disappointing that she only visited this sub long enough to take a screenshot of the 'new' feed. If she had actually been interested in what men's issues are she could have asked, like lots of others do.

Nion_zaNari · 2019-08-24T04:47:44+00:00

It's kind of hilarious how she acknowledges how bad the standard feminist paradigm of 'women's problems should be fixed by changing society, men's problems should be fixed by changing men' is... and then she makes the exact same argument herself 5 seconds later.

foot_kisser · 2019-08-24T04:25:50+00:00

She basically acknowledges that problems exist while being stereotypically dismissive of the MRM. Her stereotypical dismissal is less overt than many left-wing stereotypical dismissals, but she nevertheless does dismiss us with untrue stereotypes.

This looks less like a positive move on her part that might result in some good, and more like an attempt to stem the tide of growth of the MRM. It might result in a few generic male feminist orbiters becoming menslib feminist orbiters, but that's not really a change.

She understands that there is a problem (though she tries hard to downplay it), and that the solution must come from men, in the form of a men's movement.... then rejects the MRM which is precisely that because of tired old false stereotypes. This isn't her taking the red pill, it's her walking up to the red pill, describing the need for it, wishing that there was some sort of pill with a reddish color, because that's exactly what we need, and then tossing the red pill in the garbage.

This video is exactly the same move that menslib makes. "Look, if I acknowledge the problem exists, will you please stop trying to solve it?"

RoryTate · 2019-08-24T03:30:52+00:00

I've been noticing more of these attempts at speaking to men recently in a few different mediums, similar to that of the Guardian commentator and a few others. I'm wondering if it's due to Jordan Peterson's success, and others are just trying to mimic him in some way. I suspect that is the case, since they all mention him at one point or another in their sudden gestures of understanding. If so, these attempts aren't going to work, as this is way too focused on style and appearance, and it doesn't come across as genuine as a result.

I think JP identified the source of his popularity: he said NO when it wasn't popular to do so, and he meant it with all of his heart. Whether you agree with him in that instance or not, or agree with other positions he holds, many people do respect someone who simply stands up for themselves. Unfortunately, the rest are followers who just see something as in fashion for the moment. As such, they don't really have much of substance to offer, because that action of saying "No", and being certain about who you are, is all that was ever needed to be shown. The rest is just wind escaping from one orifice or another, and it's tough to tell which one.

EricAllonde · 2019-08-24T02:38:19+00:00

I always struggle to get through any part of a Contrapoints video. They're so smug & pretentious, it's boring & painful to watch.

Perhaps someone with more patience than me could watch this one and tell us what point, if any, she's making? I made it 3.5 minutes in and still nothing but fluff & padding, so I'm not going to subject myself to any more of it.

iainmf · 2019-08-24T03:37:35+00:00

Mod note:

The title of this post violates rule 14: Titles must be descriptive.

Please write a description of the video in reply to this comment

I have already removed another post of this video with a bad title. This one only remains because there is some discussion.

That means including what the video is about in the title:

so that people know before they click the link
so people who are searching the subreddit but have forgotten exactly what the title was can find it based on searching for subject related keywords. 'Men' is possibly the worst search term to get specific results in r/mensrights.

RockmanXX · 2019-08-24T14:27:14+00:00

WTF, why does this have so many upvotes? This "Youtube personality" is horrible.

CWBECK · 2019-08-24T12:36:22+00:00

Man, what a pointless video. It’s like she wants to acknowledge that men do have it rough in society to a certain extent but doesn’t actually want to bother coming up with any ways to change that other then some weird condescending shrug-off of “figure it out yourself, losers” while projecting this idea that MRAs constantly blame women and only women for all the shit they deal with, even though this sub’s existence by itself essentially dismantles that idea; we criticize sexist ideas and policies made by other men all the time. It’s like she’s afraid of losing the positive attention of the type of people she constantly hangs out with or something.

I guess I shouldn’t be too shocked that someone who made a 45 minute video seething over an anime internet meme word involving crossdressers doesn’t have much of anything valuable to say. Unlike false rape allegations and paternity fraud, those are the real issues truly negatively effecting people, I guess.

RockmanXX · 2019-08-24T03:21:07+00:00

Checked the users histories for those commenting on this post and they don't even frequent this sub, some first timers that have similar sub track records as the other trolls that come here and post some random ass garbage... So, again, No, I won't watch your feminist propaganda.

Trekky0623 · 2019-08-24T02:35:55+00:00

For how much r/feminism points people to these videos, I'll never watch one. They're likely full of complete garbage radfem indoctrination that is complete bullshit if you research all of it and look at how the numbers they probably use are through dubious studies and bullshitted statistics.

EDIT: And the replies are coming from people who don't ever post in this sub... hmm, makes ya wonder which nerve I hit, eh? Fuck off, trolls.

Edit2: https://www.reddit.com/r/ContraPoints/comments/cut77y/rmensrights_reaction_to_contrapoints/ey007fc/

Yeah, I should start taking feminist pushed drivel because someone else thinks I should after years of listening to feminists bash and shit on men... Yeah, still a hard no and 'fuck you'. kthxbi

Edit3: Also looks like I'll have to start tagging Contra sub participants as 'Brigaders'...

Fingercel · 2019-08-24T23:14:31+00:00

Contra is all right, I guess. For a feminist.

She doesn't actually offer any concrete solutions (indeed she's quite open about that, which I appreciated), but I do think that simply showing empathy for men as a gender is itself something of a radical act. I wonder to what degree she is aware of this.

ShawshankRetention · 2019-08-24T12:54:36+00:00

Well, the video started to have some interestings points around 20 describing men denigration but went shitty at 22:30 saying that if we werent privilegied we would actually have a struggle and hence a purpose. Granted it is said it is a leftist discourse and not fully endorsed, but such a point should be dully mocked.

Because a lot of us actually do struggle, because a lot of us have a purpose, because having a struggle,especially when your struggle is not popular actually strain you.

bkrugby78 · 2019-08-24T04:20:37+00:00

Once again, sorting by "new" provides something worth discussing on this sub.

I do come here often, though I don't post a lot because it's usual "what about men" garbage which I think she addresses right in the beginning. Or it's "this random girl on twitter said men suck, we should be angry!" Ugh. I hate that.

If you watch the whole video, it's not an attack on men by any stretch of the imagination. She recognizes that men have problems and comes up with what she thinks might be reasons for that. Essentially, she hits upon a lot of similar points you will find her ie men are made to be seen as invisible or dangerous in public and men's support groups pale in comparison to groups that women have access to.

What I think people here might get upset by is that she points out the random guy who goes into a feminist sub or community and poses the "what about men"question. Which, I interpreted as, and what she puts forth it's like "Well, ok, what are you doing about it?" Posting endless memes and tons of topics (Most of which are literally the exact same thing) isn't really going to solve anything.

I admit, also, I have never gotten through one of her videos before, as usually she does a lot of fluffer stuff that goes off topic that can be annoying. However, I watched and the more I did, I was engaged in the topic. I'm also of the belief that, if you are going to critique content, you need to watch/read the WHOLE thing before coming up with an opinion. Watching 2 minutes and saying it is "feminist left wing libtard" garbage isn't really a viable thing to do.

MrMango331 · 2019-11-19T06:41:32+00:00

Everyone is clinging to what she said in the end even though there are major valid points yet to be solved. What is our position in society since there's no more need for machoism? It'll take a lot of time especially since this ongoing change didn't come slow but rather fast from boomers telling us to get a job and a woman and being empty without that shit to a more neutral approach to life which the society is taking. What is the point in screaming "YOUR OPINION SHIT" when the one and only point that is actually important goes unnoticed and causes unrest and real problems.

inb4 this gets downvoted to hell for just telling the truth, ty for reading

HovisTMM · 2019-08-24T11:04:22+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Trantang · 2019-08-24T02:13:06+00:00

Hey! I am not one who would subscribe to this movement specifically but I came here hoping to see if there would be discourse over this video and I would genuinely like to invite anyone with real questions or any other interest to speak over on the r/contrapoints sub-reddit. Please do look into her other videos, specifically her Incels video but keep in mind that she is a leftist and you may not necessarily agree with some of her opinions, at the least she is very entertaining. Have a good night y'all.

serpentineeyelash · 2019-08-25T13:59:33+00:00

This video was much better than I expected, though imperfect.

Like probably most people in the gender debate, I am familiar with ContraPoints/Natalie and have watched most of her videos, but I am always unsure what to make of her. In some ways she comes across as a relatively male-friendly feminist, perhaps partly due to experiences from when she used to live as a male, and also being influenced by the ex-MRA Theryn Meyer.

But because her videos present so much self-parody and many different personalities arguing with each other, it’s often unclear exactly which statements are ironic and which are her real opinions (or if she’s even sure herself). Her style basically allows her to say controversial things without fully committing to them and therefore without overtly offending anyone (not unlike the Pick-Up Artists who she dislikes). This video is a particularly bad offender in that regard, as the entire first five minutes is all style and no substance, in an apparent attempt to virtue-signal to both sides – but it does improve after that.

Natalie surprised me by acknowledging some pretty fundamental challenges to feminist dogma. She not only quoted some statistics on male disposability, but even admitted her life has improved in various ways since she became a woman, including being viewed as deserving of help, no longer being sexually invisible, and no longer being viewed as potentially dangerous. I think she is moving the Overton window in the right direction by bringing all these male perspectives to a feminist audience who might not have considered them before.

She still downplays male issues a bit, though not as much as I expected:

She accuses male advocates of “whataboutism”, which in my opinion is just a word designed to discredit anyone who challenges propaganda against a particular group (I notice the same word is often used by neocons to defend war propaganda).
She criticizes male advocates for portraying men as victims, but that misses the point. Throughout history, even pre-feminism, victim power has usually been more in the hands of women than men, which contradicts her assumption that men are traditionally unilaterally privileged.
She mentions her experiences of male issues are only anecdotal. That’s true, but it’s important to remember that feminist theory is likewise based on similar anecdotes about women’s lived experiences.
I find it difficult to believe her claim that her ideas are taken less seriously now she’s a woman. Since she became a woman, she's gained mainstream media praise for her channel and a legion of fans who seem disturbingly cultish, worshiping her as their “queen” and “mommy”, like a left-wing equivalent of the cult of personality surrounding Jordan Peterson. Indeed, this very video is an example of a trans-woman being taken seriously saying things that were taken less seriously when cis-men said them. I admit, being taken less seriously is one of those issues reported by so many women that I think there must be something in it, but whatever it is must be more nuanced than how it is presented by Natalie and other feminists.
She says false rape accusations are over-discussed because they do not affect every man – but does she not see the connection between false rape accusations and the general prejudice that men are dangerous? It is very related to a systemic issue: society (and feminism) provides women with a ready-made narrative by which to demonize men they dislike.
She seems to contradict herself a few times on whether men are “privileged”. She admits it’s difficult to compare whether men or women have it worse, and suggests only the men on top are privileged. But at another point she describes men’s angst as related to being “the privileged class”. (And even though the men on top are privileged by their positions of authority, it may also be that historically the women married to these men benefited from sharing in their wealth without the risks of holding overt authority.)

I was expecting the video to finish with the usual platitudes that men should just support feminism and/or Marxism and that will solve all our problems. But Natalie again exceeded my expectations by breaking that narrative, despite having implicitly endorsed it in the past. She rightly points out that even if a revolutionary end to capitalism is possible, it wouldn’t address male gender issues. And she rightly points out that feminism basically just tells men to stop being “toxic”, and the idea of a movement actually by and for men is taboo on the left.

So, what do I think of Natalie’s solution that men need to create for ourselves a new positive ideal of manhood? I don’t know. On the one hand, I don’t like that people are coralled into arbitrary roles based on an accidents of birth. On the other hand, there may be reasons why men need to maintain a separate male identity, eg. men may be considered unattractive if we can’t figure out how to present ourselves in a way that taps into women’s evolved sexual instincts. So I guess maybe every man has to find some balance between those things, but I don’t know how to do that for myself let alone advise other men on it.

Moreover, a positive ideal of manhood can never be a full solution to male issues. Although it’s good that Natalie recognizes women shouldn’t lecture men on how to be men, she’s wrong to place all of the burden on men to solve men’s issues. How can that address all the prejudices and discrimination against men that Natalie acknowledged earlier in the video? To solve those issues, something has to change about 1) laws and policies on certain issues and 2) society’s attitudes and particularly women’s attitudes toward men.

Title	Men \| ContraPoints
Author	Solid_ferret
Upvotes	167
Comments	228
Date	August 24, 2019 1:49 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/cunb77/men_contrapoints/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/men-contrapoints.1204626 https://theredarchive.com/post/1204626

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