The university that teaches a “Problem of Whiteness” class doubles down on bigotry with new class to counter “Toxic Masculinity”

[–]Flavius_Stilicho 82 points83 points84 points 9 years ago (77 children) | Copy Link

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You fail to provide context. How violent was the world in general at the time? What avenues of recourse were actually available to any given political entity at the time? What were the reasons for any given action?

I make no excuses for barbaric behaviour, past or present. That said, I find nearly every criticism of Christianity incredibly hypocritical in that comparisons can never be made with other belief systems, somehow.

For example, is the current jihad in Syria that destroys temples, executes 'nonbelievers' on YouTube, etc, any better, or worse, than the Spanish Inquisition (which was itself the ass-end of the expulsion of 700 years of muslim invasion - much of which was abetted by Jews...which was why they were expelled from Spain...thus CC 'discovered' America)?

Will you condemn the Muslim faith, because they invaded Europe, burnt temples and libraries and killed scholars on a level widespread enough to cause what we call the 'dark ages'? Probably not. To quote Obama in his 'courageous' Easter prayer breakfast admonition to Christians...."Get off your high horse".

[–]Flavius_Stilicho 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Woah buddy. I am not "anti-christian." I have no high horse. But it well documented that the early christian church was violent and "converted" most of the roman world through violence, threats of violence or confiscation of property. I agree that the catholic monks in the "dark ages" kept the beacon of civilization going....but that does not make up for what the early Christians did. Hell, even St. Augustine wrote that violence was an acceptable means of conversion.

And yes, the world WAS a violent place back then....but the early christian church were not a bunch of pacifists. They fought tooth and nail to establish Christianity as the official religion of the empire, force it upon everyone else, and prohibited any philosophical intellectual pursuits that was not in line with the official dogma.

[–]Pornography_saves_li 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

But it well documented that the early christian church was violent and "converted" most of the roman world through violence, threats of violence or confiscation of property

As opposed to what? Islam?

I agree that the catholic monks in the "dark ages" kept the beacon of civilization going

...from the continued efforts of muslims trying to eradicate the knowledge.....dont forget to mention that...

And yes, the world WAS a violent place back then....but the early christian church were not a bunch of pacifists.

Who the fuck says they had to be? The only ones saying Christ was a pacifist are the same ones trying to tear down the Church....

They fought tooth and nail to establish Christianity as the official religion of the empire, force it upon everyone else, and prohibited any philosophical intellectual pursuits that was not in line with the official dogma.

Again, how is this different from any other religion? What about this singles out Christianity for criticism? My guess, if most other people are a guide....Christianity forbids something you like....

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[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (36 children) | Copy Link

Are women leading the class? Did I miss that? Sounds like it's based on conversations with men.

[–]Flavius_Stilicho 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (34 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (33 children) | Copy Link

Called the “Men’s Project,” the non-credit program aims to counter what some progressives refer to as “toxic masculinity” by talking to men about their troubled gender.

“The experience focuses on the examination of societal images, expectations, and messages around masculinity to empower men to better understand themselves, promote the advancement of gender equity, and raise consciousness in their communities,” it continues.

Sounds nothing like a lecture to me, and it sounds like it's fully driven by men. There's an enormous difference between men and "toxic masculinity," the latter of which I've seen people discuss in this sub all the time. It's the kind of stuff that leads to higher suicide rates for men and discourages them from seeking mental health help.

[–]Flavius_Stilicho 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (26 children) | Copy Link

If you want to assume the worst without reason, there is nothing I could ever to to convince you.

Good luck out there.

[–]majortom22 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (18 children) | Copy Link

They aren't thusly named, but they're out there. That's what women's studies classes cover, conflicting and negative definitions of femininity.

[–]majortom22 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (16 children) | Copy Link

I've also taken women's studies classes in college.

They included this angle. It was a longer course, so we also had other angles, such as literary portrayals and a discussion of masculinity. But it was still very much this.

[–]itty_bitty_beaver2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Flavius_Stilicho 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

I have, and I graduated about 5 years ago. Have you? You say you're 40 -- have you been back for classes receny or are you relying on hearsay to paint this picture?

[–]Flavius_Stilicho 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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Past participants shared this about their experience with the Men’s Project: “I realized vulnerability can be a choice you make actively. You can choose not to identify with certain types of masculinity and identify with parts you want to. I feel like when masculinity becomes a choice as opposed to something people are telling you to do, you live such a better life”

UW’s Men’s Project begins with an off-campus overnight retreat on Saturday, October 3rd and follows with six weekly 2-hour on-campus dialogues where there will be two cohorts of 10-14 students who identify as men , and each cohort will be led by two UW professional staff members.

https://msc.wisc.edu/unpacking-masculinity-with-the-mens-project/

"Students who identify as men" is all they needed to say to tell me what kind of program it is.

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All present evidence points to you being the one who hates.

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[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (115 children) | Copy Link

Isn't this what this sub is all about? People paying attention to the negative expectations and stereotypes people impose on men? I don't see how it's bigotry if it's literally an attempt to tear down negative stereotypes.

[–]Dembara 22 points23 points24 points 9 years ago (113 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (112 children) | Copy Link

The focus though is on toxic masculinity, which is different than masculinity in general. It's discussing the harmful stereotypes men face to mitigate them, not strengthen them.

I think if you've ever faced a ridiculous social norm or pressure due to being a man, you should know that this class will have something to talk about. Whether you think you'd want to be in the class is a different issue altogether.

[–]Qapiojg 16 points17 points18 points 9 years ago (46 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (34 children) | Copy Link

If that's what you believe, go to the class and discuss that. That's what it's for.

[–]Qapiojg 13 points14 points15 points 9 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link

[–]billy-_-Pilgrim -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]Qapiojg 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

What are you talking about, theres so many classes meant to engage students without professors giving "answers" like a math class (but even math theory can technically change/added in a classroom).

Hmm, I wonder what on Earth I could have been talking about

This is how all social justice courses go

No, that couldn't have been it.

A major point in the article is how mental illness in men is underrepresented, and its true! We cant talk about our feelings without being a bitch/pussy, I think that oughta change

I agree, but it "operates on a transformative model of social justice allyship." Which means they'll be peppering social justice and feminist bullshit throughout.

In addition, it's only open to men. This isn't a problem with men, it's a problem in society as a whole. So why would they only be giving the class to men?

All signs point to this being yet another class to preach social justice at men.

[–]billy-_-Pilgrim 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Mickeybl 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (17 children) | Copy Link

It's a non-credit course that meets once a week for six weeks. It's not counted toward your GPA; you don't have to regurgitate anything.

[–]Qapiojg 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (15 children) | Copy Link

Moving the goal posts, classic.

My point is that it's not just a class for a grade that passes down an idea. If you can't see that, just never mind.

[–]Qapiojg 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

No goalposts were moved, you latched on to the tangent like a retard. Go back up two replies, I quoted my main point word for word. Let's walk through it.

You:

If that's what you believe, go to the class and discuss that. That's what it's for.

Me:

That's not what it's for. Classes aren't for discussing ideas, they're for being taught ideas.

Followed by a tangential rant on social justice courses

You:

It's a non-credit course that meets once a week for six weeks.

Absolutely nothing to do with the previous two posts. You took part of that tangent and ran with it. Now that I'm calling you out on that and telling you to get back on the main train of discussion, you're saying I'm shifting the goalposts.

No, the goalposts aren't shifted because you decided to misinterpret a tangential argument.

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What is and isn't "toxic" is subjective though. And that's my primary problem with it. For example, being "competitive" could easily be defined as toxic, when I see it as nothing even close to being toxic.

What you're doing right here is exactly what the course is aiming for. I would expect many discussions like this, and I think that's a good thing.

[–]MadAlice89 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Dembara 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (38 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (37 children) | Copy Link

I think you're just trying to be offended now. Instead of reading a salty article, look up what the Men's Project actually is:

"Men's Project creates a space for critical self-reflection and dialogue on what it means to be a man and how masculinity impacts our lives."

The course isn't based around those mentions that are bothering you so much. The point of the class is to discuss the issues you're bringing up, however. It's a forum for men to discuss maleness. If you're willing to discuss them here, I don't know why you'd be opposed to it in a classroom setting.

[–]Dembara 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (23 children) | Copy Link

Odd; I didn't see anything talking about men and crime on their website.

Regardless, if the class does as it promises (discuss messages around masculinity and how these messages have impacted men and our communities), I think it's a good thing.

If it's as biased as you're thinking, terrible. But if it does what it's designed to do (there really isn't much detail on their website, so I'm going off of what is there), it'll be helpful in getting men's issues a platform.

[–]Dembara 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (12 children) | Copy Link

Ah, I was looking on the pages for the project itself.

If you think men are appropriately represented in violence and crime, that's fine. I stick by my above point.

[–]Dembara 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Dembara 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

If they allowed women, ya'll would bitch that the womens are taking over.

There's just no winning. Be mad, be happy, don't give a shit. You can choose to feel persecuted or you can use it as an opportunity.

I'm moving on.

[–]Dembara 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

If you'd be as willing to listen as you are to talk, I'm sure it would be interesting.

[–]Pornography_saves_li 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]756576576765 points 9 years ago [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link

You're not here to have a discussion.

You're here to try and dominate people into submission, as if that's the same thing.

If you're willing to discuss them here, I don't know why you'd be opposed to it in a classroom setting.

You aren't very intelligent, then. This won't be explained to you, it's FAR too obvious.

[–]Stewba 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

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[–]boringcarpets 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago* [recovered] (16 children) | Copy Link

What do you think women's studies classes do? If there's a forum to discuss women's issues, there should be one for men.

[–]boringcarpets 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link

Ha, one lady went to a handful of classes once and unveiled the whole evil plan, eh? Well shoot. There goes that.

I think you just need to learn a little bit more of what people mean when they say "toxic masculinity." They aren't calling masculinity toxic. They're referring only the parts of what is commonly identified as "masculine" that are harmful to men. Take it or leave it. That's what this is referring to. If you think men are getting a fair shake in society, what are you doing in this sub?

[–]boringcarpets 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]Stewba -2 points-1 points0 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You feminists blew your credibility long ago. The only people you will recruit are the people nobody...male or female...has the time of day for. So, knock yourselves out, recruit social rejects and sexual losers to your hearts content...teach them to demand the world alter itself to suit their weaknesses too...no one will notice.

Except the people avoiding the indoctrination. Dropping out. Avoiding University. Avoiding large corporations. Avoiding women...

Keep doubling down. Its what you do. Because youre stupid followers doing what youre told. How you are still blind to how you affect the world is beyond me, but I concede cult behaviour can be extremely focussed.

Everyone hates you. We know your game, we dont believe a word out of your mouth, because you are so transparent youre almost invisible. Your agenda is weaksauce 'rebranded' feminism trying to hitch a ride on a dead mens movement (youre so out of touch you dont even know you just tried to mount a dead horse).

Hilarious. Keep killing the golden goose, ladies. Might as well, the Point of No Return sign was a few miles back....

[–]boringcarpets 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

And yet most child abusers are women and women aren't free from committing violent crimes... So where's the toxic femininity course? Women who don't have children or don't act feminine have their femininity called into question... Where's the course on toxic femininity? And so few gangs exist (poverty is to be looked at, not gender), it doesn't warrant a course.

YOu missed the point of the class. It's not to say that being a man is inherently bad.

Then why do they?

Men shouldn't be afraid to show their emotions or feel gay for pursuing arts or less masculine careers.

Then why do they face derision from women when they do? There's a story in this sub very recently of women actively trying to shut down centres for male victims of abuse. Who came up with #maletears? NOW campaigns against fathers and equal parenting. Again, where is the toxic femininity course?

It's to further our understanding of the environment that men grow up in not to promote man hatred.

promoting man hatred you say? So the core of feminism. If anything the importance of fathers and male role models should be taught, funny though, it isn't. Also laughable: "about men and being male..... By a woman"

[–]Stewba-2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Toxic femininity is being addressed everyday in a verity of different ways, movies, TV shows mommy bloggers etc, ever seen Mean Girls, how about the body shaming issues that have been brought to light? Those are all about toxic femininity, woman studies courses do a lot of those types of things as well as spread incorrect rhetoric about wage gaps and such. Gender studies aren't without merit, when done correctly they bring understanding and acceptance to gender relations.

Feminism has been perverted but it's supposed to represent equal rights. It's not inherently about man hating. It's just swinging the other way.

All I can say for the course is that it could possibly consider a name change, but it deserves to and should exist as a way to provoke a conversation as to how we bring up our boys and how we can foster a better understanding as to what it means to be a man and a person in today's society.

This sub is as guilty as feminism for placing blame, it should be a place where we find solutions and hash out topics not an echo chamber pitting one sex against the other. There are more woman and especially mothers who are joining men's right advocacy groups which are concerned with both their boys exposure to some of the more detrimental aspects of "toxic" masculinity as well as the school systems which primarily cater to the way women learn leaving the boys behind.

We need a lot more understanding and a lot less finger pointing. Neither side is without flaws and critical reflection in an academic setting will help further both causes.

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[+]joepaulpavlin points 9 years ago [recovered] (60 children) | Copy Link

This pertains to men's rights how?

[–]Dembara 13 points14 points15 points 9 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

[+]joepaulpavlin points 9 years ago [recovered] (40 children) | Copy Link

They are allowed to teach that, that is well within their rights. It might not be correct but it us a right they reserve. Are white people not allowed to take the course? That would be discrimination, teaching one group as bad isn't discriminating.

[–]Dembara 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]joepaulpavlin points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

If it bars woman than its discriminating and creating its own echo chamber which is garbage.

[–]Dembara 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (36 children) | Copy Link

[+]joepaulpavlin points 9 years ago [recovered] (35 children) | Copy Link

That isn't the definition of hate speech. Just because we don't like the content doesn't mean its hate speech. It isn't discrimination either. I am glad you brought up Nazis. Teaching people Nazis are bad isn't discrimination against Nazis, it isn't hate speech against Nazis either.... that should be obvious to you. So it isn't all of the sudden hate speech or discrimination when that same teaching is applied to white people or jews.

[–]Pornography_saves_li 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (34 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

lol. It's Wikipedia. Your "leftist SJW" source is Wikipedia.

[–]Pornography_saves_li 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]joepaulpavlin points 9 years ago [recovered] (31 children) | Copy Link

You know what let's play your game. Let's all woe is me and play the victim... Oh wait hate speech isn't a crime. You know what you keyboard dick shits are going to do about this university? Nothing. You won't stop them from exercising their right to host this. You won't apply a smidgen of pressure to stop them. Because your fight isn't about what's right or wrong its about you not liking it. Boo hoo. Let me know when the university crosses the line and actually takes the rights of men. Fucking losers pissing and moaning over rights while in the exact same hand trying to take the rights of others.

[–]Pornography_saves_li 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link

[+]joepaulpavlin points 9 years ago [recovered] (29 children) | Copy Link

I'll be waiting for that. I am pro men's rights. This isn't that tough guy. This is whining.

[–]Pornography_saves_li 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

[+]WiWiWiWiWiWi points 9 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

Really? You can't figure out how the theory of "toxic masculinity" is related to men's rights?

Really?

[+]joepaulpavlin points 9 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

Really? You can't figure out how the university has a right to teach dumb ass classes?

[+]WiWiWiWiWiWi points 9 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

I didn't speak to whether or not they have the right to teach the class. I spoke to the stupidity of your initial question.

Stop moving the goalposts.

[+]joepaulpavlin points 9 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

It's posted on men's rights, the sub is allegedly dedicated to the discussion of men's rights. This isn't a rights issue, it's whiny bullshit.

[+]WiWiWiWiWiWi points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

So the damaging theory of "toxic masculinity" is not related to men's rights?

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (11 children) | Copy Link

Isn't it kind of the male equivalent of women's studies? One looks at the harmful portrayals and pressures women face; the other looks at the harmful portrayals and pressures men face.

[+]joepaulpavlin points 9 years ago [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link

It doesn't matter what the course is about, I wouldn't argue its a course worth taking. I am simply arguing why is this posted on the men's rights sub? It isn't related to the rights of men. The university is well within its rights to make retarded classes for retarded students to waste money and time on. It could be the study of circlejerks (like this sub often gets itself into) and it would still be okay for them to do.

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (9 children) | Copy Link

I'm saying it does relate to rights of men if it's opening a dialogue about men's social issues. Probably doesn't need to a gen ed course or anything, but I can see it being relevant to those interested in gender studies and politics.

This sub has a lot to say about negative stereotypes of men and unfair social expectations — this seems like a step in the direction of tackling those issues.

[–]Pornography_saves_li 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

Really? Because I'm here, talking about how men's issues matter. While you call me a feminist, lash out in anger, and talk about feminist hatred.

The class is about men, so that's why it's not about women's issues. You can relax now.

[–]Pornography_saves_li 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

You're doing all the attacking and the hating here, bud.

Feel like a victim if you want to; no one is going to stop you. But nothing in the class materials supports your theory that this is an evil class. It's just your personal bias. It's set up to allow men to talk about whatever plagues them about the idea or pressures of masculinity. No one who doesn't want the opportunity has to take it.

[–]Pornography_saves_li 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+]lets--be--realistic points 9 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

I have not once said one bad thing about men throughout our conversation. Women are also not the force behind "frosh week." If you're going to continue hallucinating, do so elsewhere.

Have a good one. I hope you one day realize how misplaced your anger is.

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The university that teaches a “Problem of Whiteness” class doubles down on bigotry with new class to counter “Toxic Masculinity”

Comments

x&94:D:;Law)H-X-(ts@[<9Un2u->:xRdn:SNNtP(ab.hX1SmVwShM$;0yEi[0)]UQ>K&a!H66>vW.CQq>BdhkT23,]TROI:VV0Ao-TSJK581:>!%64LPp

Title	The university that teaches a “Problem of Whiteness” class doubles down on bigotry with new class to counter “Toxic Masculinity”
Author	AndrewLevin
Upvotes	309
Comments	198
Date	January 4, 2017 3:05 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/5lzks0/the_university_that_teaches_a_problem_of/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/the-university-that-teaches-a-problem-of-whiteness.934653 https://theredarchive.com/post/934653