They ditched me like I was nothing.

HolySchmoly · 2013-11-15T19:32:25+00:00

Feminism is an ideology. It hands down its shiboleths from on high. These are like axioms. They cannot be questioned. They require no evidential or logical support. They just are. Above all, dissent from these is not permitted. There remains a narrow range of acceptable positions within which debate can occur, but the shiboleths must not be questioned. It becomes a matter of taste.

Like all ideologies, once you stray beyond the pale you are laughed at, called names, told you are mad, and finally ignored. In particularly rigid societies you may even be physically at risk. You may be arrested, tortured or even killed. Fortunately in our situation the latter risk doesn't exist. It would really be quite shameful and cowardly to be swayed by the former trivial risks considering how human beings are capable of enduring the latter, even unto death, for the sake of truth, justice and freedom.

Challenge to ideological authority always begins with an uncountenanced question. You have asked such questions and have been led astray from the true path into the sin of apostasy. You can expect the full panoply of low-grade punishments. You are now a recovering feminist.

One particular punishment that is interesting in your case is that your intelligence has been called into question. Perhaps this is standard in more academic settings. Your response is exactly correct. It is to accept that your intelligence is limited and insist that you are only honestly seeking help. What you must realize now is that the reason these people are not helping to answer your questions is that they cannot and they instinctively know this. I suspect you may be making them more nervous than you realize. You will find that you are more right than you realize.

Keep telling feminists that you accept you may be quite wrong. Express the hope that you are so that you can be a good feminist again. Keep sincerely asking for help with these questions. There may be some rare souls who will genuinely engage you. Be open to them. Remember that the most you can hope from them is that they will take your doubts seriously enough to consider them and try to tell you where you've gone wrong, and perhaps even look at some of the literature. This engagement will take the form of a series of questions for you which you should anticipate and come to expect. No one should ever abandon immediately long-established beliefs in the face of a single detractor. To them you really are either mad or bad. It may seem as if it's not worth their while wasting their time with you.

Even if you have lost these friends, probably irrevocably, there will be other feminists with whom you can take this approach.

A couple of final points on your loss of friends. Firstly, no one ever made friends in politics. You may occasionally make friends through politics, where you happen to meet someone along the way who becomes your friend and will remain so even when views diverge. But friends are not friends because they share a political view. True friendship runs deeper than that.

Secondly, authoritarian ideologies always demand of their adherents that loyalty to the cause comes above friendship. You should not be surprised how callously they now abandon you to the fire.

Remember that the MRM may be ideological too. Stand firm against shiboleths wherever you find them. Expect no friends, only allies, pro tem.

pvtshoebox · 2013-11-15T18:11:54+00:00

If you could lose their friendship so easily, they were never your friends in the first place. If their friendship to you is based on your support of their ideology, than you are not a friend, but a pawn.

It sucks, and I know that this might make you feel worse. In any case, it would be better to lose them now then count on them when you needed them, only to find that their supposed appreciation of you is nothing more than a transient reward for being "a good boy."

Losing them makes you stronger, not weaker.

girlwriteswhat · 2013-11-15T20:20:19+00:00

It became quite clear to me after, that they believed society is inherently misogynistic

If society was inherently misogynistic, no accusation of misogyny would be considered an insult to the recipient, and it would do not one thing to shut anyone up. "Misogynist" as a label carries a social stigma that shames the target, the way "nigger-lover" did during the Jim Crow era. "Misogynist", the way it's used as an accusation to silence people, actually proves that society does not hate women. The same way "nigger-lover" as an epithet proved that society under Jim Crow was racist against blacks.

and that women suffer more at the hands of men since men are in power.

Really? Ask them what initiatives Obama has spearheaded to deal with men's issues. Things like unemployment, suicide, educational attainment. And then direct them to Obama's infamous father's day speech, where he blamed fathers for being douchebags with no sense of responsibility, rather than supporting campaigns for legal enforcement of access for fathers who want contact with their children. Also, direct him to the (I think it was a) New York Times article where Obama said the fact that women are 60% of university students was a triumph for "equality", but it doesn't go far enough--that he's planning on using Title IX to coerce universities to increase female enrolment in STEM fields (the last bastion where men outnumber women). And then direct them to the ACA mandate that even single men need to pay for maternity coverage, even though said coverage is non-transferrable to the mothers of their children. You know, how every man is required to pay maternity coverage for every woman, but no man can choose to pay for maternity coverage for the uninsured mother of HIS child. So his paying for maternity care can't benefit him in any way.

Ask these women how they're suffering collectively under (male) Obama's power. OMG, they have hundreds of offices at the federal and state level making sure men are doing fine, and none for women! Oh, wait...

femdelusion · 2013-11-15T17:58:09+00:00

Jesus... I don't blame you for being upset.

But all I'm hearing is "our gender suffers more, so we're fighting for our rights first. men later."

Yep. That is pretty much the guiding intuition. My contention is that people react so vociferously when you question that fundamental premise precisely because no work has ever gone in to establishing it as true. It has always been assumed, and no one has ever sought to say what it means, and compiled evidence to show that it is true. It's because they know damn well they can't justify it that the emotional reaction is so strong. You are being treated as a heretic here. How DARE you question an empirical claim people have simply assumed without sufficient evidence?!

You never know, though. When they've calmed down, they might climb down a bit, and you can have a reasonable discussion, or agree to disagree.

In any case, good on you for being true to yourself and relying on your own powers of judgement rather than bowing to peer pressure. It might not be a happy path, but at least you can look yourself in the mirror.

notnotnotfred · 2013-11-15T21:31:58+00:00

the one argument you made compellingly is that you need to do more research. Read the FAQ here, and look at /r/mrref.

also, study feminism.

understand the arguments on both sides and evaluate them for validity and honesty.

uncanny_valley_girl · 2013-11-15T20:49:52+00:00

I know that feel. My friend group is currently experiencing a widening chasm of philosophy. On the one side we have the Feminist Regime, always posting shit to Fborg and G+ that makes broad, sweeping generalizations about 'men' and referencing 'rape culture' and 'privilege' just constantly. Fucking constantly.

And on the other side, the group who believe that all humanity should be cared for equally, and that blame needs to be laid individually, and that you can't necessarily gauge privilege by someone's sex or the color of their skin, and that 'rape culture' is part of a much larger phenomenon of rampant sociopathy, chronic abuse, shitty role models and humanity's failing empathy.

These people are adults who have been friends for around fifteen years. It's really heartbreaking. The Feminist movement is getting seriously out of hand, in this woman's opinion.

Men aren't evil. People are evil. Men have simply predominantly had the power in the past, and the ability to do more evil. Tip the balance in the other direction, and you'll see a lot more evil from women. Everybody's jerks. You, me... that jerk. --->

reallyoverwhelmed123 · 2013-11-15T19:36:22+00:00

They said we couldn't be friends anymore because of my views.

That's ridiculous and infantile, you don't want these people as friends anyways. I have plenty of friends where we differ greatly on many subjects. The thing is we're adults about it. These people who you thought were friends, have a lot of growing up to do. I wouldn't want to be friends who displayed such fickle attitudes like that.

Arn13 · 2013-11-15T17:42:54+00:00

Fighting for human rights and equality for everybody requires a brain and a heart, nothing more. You need reason and compassion, not a label such as feminist or MRA. It sounds like you've got the former, and your "friends" only have the latter. Good riddance.

I hope on this subreddit (and IRL) you'll meet new people who are more reasonable and compassionate, regardless of what they do or don't call themselves. But yeah, there's a lot of anger here too, as you've seen on AVFM. It's a hard world. You don't have to be everybody's friend, but I'm glad you can still look through the anger and see the real issues.

carchamp1 · 2013-11-15T22:54:43+00:00

You're really just finding out the truth behind feminism. It has NOTHING to do with equality. The equality line is just the nice shiny wrapper. When you open up the package it's just hate movement that seeks female privilege.

I'm sure losing your "friends" IS overwhelming, but consider that the moral equivalent of the Nazis just defriended you. Now you can find some real friends.

2013-11-16T01:40:18+00:00

Look at how much more room in your life you can devote to people who are worth something.

JayBopara · 2013-11-16T03:31:44+00:00

Dude, I've lost so many friends on facebook - people who I had been friends for years with. They always come up with the same rubbish - "Why do you hate women?" etc. etc. etc.

It's like anyone who doesn't support misandry and women being pedestalized must hate women! Just send a positive message and end it. Being part of the MHRM can be tricky, but all I can say is it is incredibly liberating to know that we know the truth, and these gender ideolgoues are as ignorant as the church desperately hanging onto the notion that the planets and the sun revolve around Earth.

Just like the church in those days, they are so heavily invested, and even if they get smacked in the face with the truth, it will take them approximately a year to 5 years to concede they were duped. These people are no different to members of a fundamentalist religious cult.

DavidByron · 2013-11-15T19:25:30+00:00

According to polling data most women in the USA think men are worse off than women, or else that there's no difference. Feminists are increasingly out of line with society and completely out of line with reality.

It is like a cult. Sorry about your friend.

SacreBleuMe · 2013-11-15T20:34:43+00:00

Female hypoagency, male hyperagency is the dogma. Violate the feminine imperative and you will be spurned.

JaydenPope · 2013-11-15T19:51:00+00:00

If they can ditch me just like that, when feminism is supposed to be about educating and advocating for change ... just declare me narrow-minded, move on to the next person, you're not one of us? you're against us?

Sounds like typical feminists, rather than dispute you they'll just ignore you. The original focus of feminism was to be EQUAL to men not be superior to men.

Feminists are fighting for things they already have, wage inequality is based on women's choices not male bosses being discriminatory toward women, this is the main issue i have with feminists arguing about the wage gap is that if women were being paid less for the same job then businesses would hire only women cause they are paid less.

Women already have rights and privileges that women in other countries may not have, women in the US are vastly privileged and have freedom to do whatever they want to. Men and women due with things at the same level and it's only feminism that has a habit of erasing male victims to prop up females.

woodchopperak · 2013-11-16T02:48:33+00:00

Colored rights?

bunker_man · 2013-11-16T11:15:34+00:00

that feminism isn't doing much about former, only the latter.

Also, this is more or less wrong. Modern feminism is doing little, if anything, for either.

A_User · 2013-11-16T13:05:14+00:00

Feminism works like a cult, it really does. There isn't another political movement that runs anything like it.

When a politician says something counter to the current party line, he doesn't get booted out. He might be ignored, or shouted down, but he doesn't get booted, and there's a chance his statement will be discussed, and that it might result in some change.

Not so in feminism - and I say this after years of experience infiltrating it online under a wealth of pseudonyms. Dissent is not tolerated. Deviation from the party line - that is, from 'feminist theory' as dictated by the top authors, is dealt with by removal from the group. How long this takes varies from group to group, but the end result is always the same, for even the most minor deviations from the writings of the top authors. You're out. Gone.

It doesn't matter how reasonably you present your statement, how tiny the degree from which you deviate from what's ordered by those at the top; if you don't soon give it up and submit to exactly what's expected of you, you will be out.

Gender studies courses should be viewed as nothing but indoctrination camps, whose only real purpose is to train the next generation of feminist writers and give them an army of foot soldiers ready to regurgitate their words. It works like religion; Here's our book, repeat what it says, and know that everything it says is right and anything that goes against it is therefore wrong.

2013-11-16T13:45:36+00:00

Friends don't just abandon friends.

These people were never really friends. They were using you as their beard -- as long as you stood by them, you immunized them to criticisms that they hate men.

But a real friend doesn't even turn on you when they vehemently disagree with you. You back you up, because the bonds of friendship are stronger than the bonds of ideology, or at least should be.

Crackerjacksurgeon · 2013-11-16T14:51:50+00:00

In my experience, women can't constructively disagree. With men or among each other. Their strong preference for collectivism doesn't allow it.

dejour · 2013-11-15T19:05:16+00:00

That definitely sucks. Probably these aren't people worth being around, and you would do well to find a more caring, compassionate and reasonable group of friends.

That said, if the friendship is important to you, you can probably salvage things.

Personally I'd send a message in a couple of days (after people have calmed down) saying that I value their friendship, that you all want equality between men and women and that it would be a shame to throw away a friendship over a political argument.

Aaod · 2013-11-15T20:03:33+00:00

Feminism just seems to be a movement that propels itself forward based on hatred. MRAs are probably the same, really, if all they are doing is complaining instead of raising awareness without resorting to demeaning, condescending, and hateful speech. But feminism is not something I can support ever again, not now, not until they have acknowledged that their movement is promoting hatred against anyone who isn't ONE OF THEM, and can prove something other than mission statements that they fight for men's rights too.

Ask yourself whether we react the same way to someone questioning our ideas. Look at all the posts that come here on a weekly basis asking questions and how we usually react.

elljawa · 2013-11-16T05:35:29+00:00

Most good feminists would have accurately told you that most mens rights issues are covered under feminism. Like, people who actually study feminism would generally argue the patriarchy is to blame for a lot of male suffering (stuff like the expectation men will be bad parents, forcing men to be manly men, etc)

2013-11-16T09:22:26+00:00

In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing. - Autobiography of Mark Twain

I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's. - Mark Twain in Eruption

This is quite a game, politics. There are no permanent enemies, and no permanent friends, only permanent interests. -William Clay

bunker_man · 2013-11-16T11:10:42+00:00

that feminism also fights for colored rights, LGBT rights, children's rights, men's rights.

Isn't this an implicit admission that their definition of feminism is thus not the "classical" one, but merely referring to modern movements?

BaiduAmbassador · 2013-11-17T03:32:35+00:00

Fuck em. You deserve better than a bunch of brainwashed mouthbreathers.

rightsbot · 2013-11-15T17:26:17+00:00

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2013-11-15T19:26:04+00:00

Reminds me of that first Rambo movie where the police is just picking on him for fun. It's typical feminist. Kinda fits in with their shaming language too with the ridiculous straight razor shave obsession in that movie.

Title	They ditched me like I was nothing.
Author	reallyoverwhelmed123
Upvotes	77
Comments	80
Date	November 15, 2013 5:25 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1qpax4/they_ditched_me_like_i_was_nothing/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/they-ditched-me-like-i-was-nothing.1158740 https://theredarchive.com/post/1158740

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