"Dead Cradling"

theambivalentrooster · 2017-12-21T18:53:08+00:00

Children are not something one should ever make an assumption about as the little creatures are life-changing time consuming money pits.

I would never assume marriage = children. I would and did discuss having children with my wife before we got married.

If the man won’t follow through on his commitment to have kids the wife should leave him for a man who will and stop wasting time.

Lying about birth control is horrible terrible behavior and is never justified.

Alth12 · 2017-12-21T18:53:28+00:00

I'd say in this day and age you should discuss all this before marrying. Whether it's the man emphasising how important sex is to him, or the woman emphasising her desire for children. You can't make assumptions anymore with marriage.

Dubslav_von_Chekem · 2017-12-21T18:56:42+00:00

Maybe people shouldn't marry the first warm hole or hard bod they meet.

Marriage. Serious business. Big deal. Long term planning.

AstuteBlackMan · 2017-12-21T20:46:10+00:00

If the husband or SO doesn't want kids then you should leave. Not trap the husband

TheChemist158 · 2017-12-22T02:23:17+00:00

Is it reasonable for a woman to assume that children should be part of a marriage without asking about it first, or not pressing for a hard agreement on it?

Absolutely not. Lots of people don't want kids (or want kids at different times, or a different number of kids). Don't assume shit, figure it out prior to marriage. And this isn't just geared towards women. Men also need to make sure they are on the same page with their potential wife.

How much responsibility do men have for following through on it, particularly to meet the timeframe of her declining fertility?

Kids should never be made out of obligation. A guy shouldn't have a kid just because his wife wants one. I'm very sympathetic to cases where one person changes their mind post marriage (or lied about it pre-marriage), but even then I think that you should actually at least kinda want a kid. So no obligation to answer your question.

Is a wife justified for retreating from the marriage or lying about birth control to get pregnant if her husband isn't budging on kids after agreeing to them before?

Divorcing him? Sure, though if she lied/flip flopped on the topic she is the one who fucked up. But she should still be allowed to leave him for another guy is she really needs kids in her life.

Sabotaging birth control? Fuck that bitch to the moon and back, hell no she isn't justified.

If today's men are less willing to be open on the idea of kids, does that say something about how well they are prepared for marriage?

I don't like how you worded that. Marriage is about forming an ideally permanent, romantic bond between two people. Kids may or may not be involved. Hell, kids may be the sole reason for a certain couple to get married. But not all marriages are about kids. A guy who able to maintain a cohabiting relationship indefinitely is prepared for married. His want for kids isn't a factor.

I think any decline in the desire for kids has more to do with society becoming more open to alternative life scripts (eternal bachelors gay marriages are examples of departure from the traditional relationship). Marriage and heterosexuality are becoming optional, it's natural that kids are becoming optional too. I'm not sure how true it is, but I hear that the last few decades of media featured a more negative light on parenthood. It's becoming an joke where a couple is left drained of time and energy after having kids, along with a dead bedroom. A generation that grew up on that stuff is bound to be hesitant to have kids. But I wasn't around before the 90's so maybe someone lied to me about how things use to be.

wtknight · 2017-12-21T19:43:08+00:00

Is it reasonable for a woman to assume that children should be part of a marriage without asking about it first, or not pressing for a hard agreement on it?

No, because many couples choose not to have children these days.

How much responsibility do men have for following through on it, particularly to meet the timeframe of her declining fertility?

None, if he made no promises beforehand.

Is a wife justified for retreating from the marriage or lying about birth control to get pregnant if her husband isn't budging on kids after agreeing to them before?

She is justified in retreating from the marriage. She is not justified about lying about birth control. Pregnancies should ideally be planned.

If today's men are less willing to be open on the idea of kids, does that say something about how well they are prepared for marriage?

No, because I don't think there should be an expectation that marriage automatically means that there will be children. Marriage is about a lifetime commitment to love and partnership in my opinion, but not necessarily children.

GinSmokeLies · 2017-12-21T19:21:08+00:00

Is it reasonable for a woman to assume that children should be part of a marriage without asking about it first, or not pressing for a hard agreement on it?

No. That kind of thing should definitely be talked about and agreed on beforehand.

How much responsibility do men have for following through on it, particularly to meet the timeframe of her declining fertility?

A lot. You can't make someone a promise of that magnitude and not follow through with it. And men should be aware that it's a time-sensitive issue. In my opinion a couple should set a timeline when they get married and stick to that timeline unless they BOTH agree to alter it.

Is a wife justified for retreating from the marriage or lying about birth control to get pregnant if her husband isn't budging on kids after agreeing to them before?

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it's justified, but I think it's understandable and I personally wouldn't blame her. Just like I don't necessarily think a man has a "right" to step out on his wife in a DB situation, but I understand why he would do it and I have sympathy for his situation. These are moral gray areas imo. You can't break a huge marital promise and expect the other party to hold up their end of the deal.

My mom once told me that if women waited until men were "ready" to have kids, the human race would die out. I think there's some truth to that. In my experience men are rarely "ready" for kids the way women are. He's "ready" when the kid is born and he holds it in his arms for the first time. (Obligatory NAMALT.)

I definitely think it's wrong to get pregnant in order to secure commitment, or to force a kid on a guy who doesn't want to be a dad ever... but if you're married, and he wants kids "someday, just not yet," (which IME is much more common than a guy just up and deciding he doesn't want kids at all anymore), I don't think it's the worst thing in the world to move that timeline forward a bit by going off BC and letting nature take its course. I'm not saying it's GOOD, or honest, or moral. It's certainly not ideal. I just don't think it's...that bad.

If he straight up doesn't want kids, not now not ever, she should make her peace with that or leave.

If today's men are less willing to be open on the idea of kids, does that say something about how well they are prepared for marriage?

I think guys who don't want kids can be good husbands to women who don't want kids. If there's a huge disparity then that could cause issues, but I've not seen evidence of such. I think the bigger problem is men wanting kids but not really acknowledging the strict timeframe their wives are on. (The reverse can happen too -- husband is dying for kids and wife wants to put it off -- but that's less common I think.) And I don't think this is necessarily solved by women marrying older men, either.

Scatre · 2017-12-21T18:51:02+00:00

Is it reasonable for a woman to assume that children should be part of a marriage without asking about it first, or not pressing for a hard agreement on it?

It's not unreasonable to assume that. I don't see why a man or woman would get married if they don't plan to have kids. That being said, you should try to be understand of eachother's opinions on it.

How much responsibility do men have for following through on it, particularly to meet the timeframe of her declining fertility?

About as much as women do in giving them sex whenever they want.

Is a wife justified for retreating from the marriage or lying about birth control to get pregnant if her husband isn't budging on kids after agreeing to them before?

Two very different things. I think you are justified in retreating from a marriage if you realize you don't share the same life goals. Lying about birth control to pop a child out on someone unwillingly is never justified.

If today's men are less willing to be open on the idea of kids, does that say something about how well they are prepared for marriage?

No

PBRScagsquad · 2017-12-21T18:55:16+00:00

Is it reasonable for a woman to assume that children should be part of a marriage without asking about it first, or not pressing for a hard agreement on it?

No, they need to both be on the same page with regards to children before they get married or there will inevitable be issues later on.

How much responsibility do men have for following through on it, particularly to meet the timeframe of her declining fertility?

If they actually made it explicit that they wanted kids then they should be prepared for the wife to expect him to follow through with that, if he does not in that circumstance she is more than entitled to leave, especially considering she likely does not have a long window of time to have children within. If the husband has said nothing on the matter and she just assumes that they will be having kids then she cannot expect anything and it would be ridiculous for her to do so.

Is a wife justified for retreating from the marriage or lying about birth control to get pregnant if her husband isn't budging on kids after agreeing to them before?

I would not call her justified but I could understand the rationale behind it.

If today's men are less willing to be open on the idea of kids, does that say something about how well they are prepared for marriage?

Considering what marriages have traditionally been for throughout history I would have to say yes they are, if they cannot agree on whether or not to have children before they get married it is a problem that will only rear it's ugly head again and again throughout the marriage.

haunting-you · 2017-12-21T19:01:23+00:00

Is it reasonable for a woman to assume that children should be part of a marriage without asking about it first, or not pressing for a hard agreement on it?

not these days, no. it should be discussed, with an explicit decision made, no gray areas.

How much responsibility do men have for following through on it, particularly to meet the timeframe of her declining fertility?

none, i suppose. it'd be pretty shitty to change that opinion years after getting married, though, and he should be prepared for the relationship to end (as it very well may).

Is a wife justified for retreating from the marriage or lying about birth control to get pregnant if her husband isn't budging on kids after agreeing to them before?

retreating as in divorce? yes, completely. the latter, no, i'll never think that's okay. if she does that, she should also be prepared for the relationship to end (though it would be a riskier move for him).

If today's men are less willing to be open on the idea of kids, does that say something about how well they are prepared for marriage?

lots of people are ill-suited or ill-prepared for marriage; i don't think this is exclusive to men. if it were the case that men specifically are unwilling to commit to a yes-or-no on having kids in order to keep someone around (which i don't know that it is)... well yeah, they sound pretty unprepared and unsuitable.

crumblesnatch · 2017-12-21T19:36:51+00:00

Is it reasonable for a woman to assume that children should be part of a marriage without asking about it first, or not pressing for a hard agreement on it?

No. People who don't discuss children prior to marriage are morons.

How much responsibility do men have for following through on it, particularly to meet the timeframe of her declining fertility?

He's allowed to change his mind; she's allowed to break up with him for it.

Is a wife justified for retreating from the marriage or lying about birth control to get pregnant if her husband isn't budging on kids after agreeing to them before?

No. I'm reading "retreating from marriage" as "cheating" here, but if you just mean emotional detachment then I can't fault her for it. She's allowed to be disappointed that he's changed his mind, because it changes the terms of the relationship. She now has to choose: do I want to spend my life with this man more than I want kids?

If today's men are less willing to be open on the idea of kids, does that say something about how well they are prepared for marriage?

I suppose. Fear of fatherhood might be seen as an aversion to responsibility. People can be quite selfish, and have strange expectations of romantic partners and marriage.

[deleted] · 2017-12-21T21:57:53+00:00

I've seen this happen and it is absolutely awful. Anyone that wants to get children needs to discuss it before marrying and make clear that there's a timetable they want to follow.

People who don't want children yet keep being in a marriage or relationship with someone they know does are terrible and egotistical.

IckyStickyPoo · 2017-12-21T22:14:24+00:00

Is it reasonable for a woman to assume that children should be part of a marriage without asking about it first, or not pressing for a hard agreement on it?

Yes. Children are usually expected to follow a marriage at some point after marriage. If someone absolutely does not want children, then they should be sure to state this and ensure they marry someone who is on the same page.

At the same time, it's best for the person who does want children to talk about this with their partner before marriage, and definitely before too much time goes past - otherwise they're wasting their life.

Is a wife justified for retreating from the marriage or lying about birth control to get pregnant if her husband isn't budging on kids after agreeing to them before?

No in regard to deliberately getting pregnant. If he's withdrawn his consent to have children, then that's his choice and prerogative. He should end the marriage when he realises his choices have changed. If he strings her along for years while knowing he doesn't want kids, he's a piece of shit.

A wife retreating from such a marriage (as you outlined) is normal.

How much responsibility do men have for following through on it, particularly to meet the timeframe of her declining fertility?

If they agreed to have children beforehand, then they should both discuss the "when". His sperm quality and ability to get her pregnant is declining too. It's best that both of them have their kids before age 35 (if possible) or at least before age 40.

wuboo · 2017-12-21T22:49:43+00:00

Is it reasonable for a woman to assume that children should be part of a marriage without asking about it first, or not pressing for a hard agreement on it?

Both people in the relationship should discuss marriage and children long before they are engaged, much less married.

How much responsibility do men have for following through on it, particularly to meet the timeframe of her declining fertility?

Assuming they discussed it before getting married, no external circumstance like disability or job loss has occurred, and they continue discussing their long term goals with each other, I don't see why they shouldn't follow through.

Is a wife justified for retreating from the marriage or lying about birth control to get pregnant if her husband isn't budging on kids after agreeing to them before?

Retreating from the marriage, yes. Lying about birth control, no.

If today's men are less willing to be open on the idea of kids, does that say something about how well they are prepared for marriage?

No. Kids and marriage can be mutually exclusive.

MercedesBenzoAMG · 2017-12-22T09:04:35+00:00

Is it reasonable for a woman to assume that children should be part of a marriage without asking about it first, or not pressing for a hard agreement on it?

Absolutely not, if you want a family you make sure to discuss it before committing to marriage. This goes for both the man and woman really. How can you get married without discussing something like that?

How much responsibility do men have for following through on it, particularly to meet the timeframe of her declining fertility?

If they haven't even discussed it, none.

Is a wife justified for retreating from the marriage or lying about birth control to get pregnant if her husband isn't budging on kids after agreeing to them before?

Retreating from the marriage, again depends on if she even talked about it.

Lying about birth control and shit fuck no, any woman who'd do that shouldn't be having kids, crazy bitches.

If today's men are less willing to be open on the idea of kids, does that say something about how well they are prepared for marriage?

That's a deeper question, depends on if you believe marriage is only about raising a family or if you believe it's about commitment in and of itself. That'll be down to personal opinion.

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i_have_a_semicolon · 2017-12-21T18:56:12+00:00

Is it reasonable for a woman to assume that children should be part of a marriage without asking about it first, or not pressing for a hard agreement on it?

No, both people should be on the same page with regards to children before making the lifelong commitment to eachother.

How much responsibility do men have for following through on it, particularly to meet the timeframe of her declining fertility?

I think if a man tells a woman he wants children, he is responsible for following through. They need to come to an agreement of a timeline and he is responsible for following through. If he doesn't want that, he should make his uncertainty about children well known.

Is a wife justified for retreating from the marriage or lying about birth control to get pregnant if her husband isn't budging on kids after agreeing to them before?

I don't know. It sounds like a good reason to break the commitment but it boils down to what she values more. Reproducing or that Man? Personally if I was in the position I'd probably stay with my man but harbor resentments and sadness for the life I missed out on. It would be a shitty situation so Id hope both people were completely honest about what their intentions were for their future and marriage.

If today's men are less willing to be open on the idea of kids, does that say something about how well they are prepared for marriage?

I don't know. Are men less willing to be open to the idea of kids? I'm not certain.

quicklogaccount · 2017-12-21T19:36:24+00:00

Is it reasonable for a woman to assume that children should be part of a marriage without asking about it first, or not pressing for a hard agreement on it?

Social standards are dead, so it's a nope. If not even monogamy is a non spoken rule, why should children be?
A hard agreement and action is necessary.

How much responsibility do men have for following through on it, particularly to meet the timeframe of her declining fertility?

Given how many tools women have to press for it, as for instance saying "I am no longer using birth control" and stop using it, the man has no responsibility whatsoever. He's left with little choice actually.

Is a wife justified for retreating from the marriage or lying about birth control to get pregnant if her husband isn't budging on kids after agreeing to them before?

Retreating: Yep, but one doesn't need justification for that anymore.
Lying: Not by chance.
People get to change their minds, don't them? Hubby might realize how hard shit is only after getting married among many other reasons.

If today's men are less willing to be open on the idea of kids, does that say something about how well they are prepared for marriage?

Being prepared for marriage, for men, is an euphemism for being willing to go through a lot of shit for making benefit of having a child in the future.
So, no. Men "not being prepared for marriage" means basically they're opting out of their role and obligations, which is reasonable in itself and a lot more reasonable provided that wives opted out of these long before and given that having children allows the wife to use the state to enforce a man into the role, but there are no tools to enforce a woman into a role, that is always a decision.

rulenumber303 · 2017-12-22T05:53:04+00:00

No-one should marry if they haven't discussed having kids first. If you've agreed to kids then yes you are obliged to actively follow through on that goal or to immediately discuss your change of mind and realize there may be consequences. Tricking someone into parenthood is wrong. Leaving a relationship (including a marriage relationship) where the participants differ significantly on the need for children and can not come to an agreed compromise is absolutely the correct thing to do as it frees two people to find happiness. People in general (not just men) are less open to the idea of kids nowadays because now more than ever there is the freedom to live life without having kids. Willingness to have kids says nothing about your readiness for marriage in general what does say something about your readiness for marriage is knowing what range of outcomes in terms of having kids one is willing to accept and knowing what that means for your choices.

-clickhere- · 2017-12-22T12:58:03+00:00

I'll answer your questions honestly, but realize that your stated premise "women see child as express purpose of marrying in first place" renders the female in that situation as the PROBLEM, because marriage is a contract between man and woman, not child. If she is marrying 'express purpose' of having a child, and not 'express purpose' for the man because she loves him, then that is problem right there.

That said, the answer to all of your questions is one word: Openness. Each party should be open up front, and neither should "assume" anything. Then, if one party changes their mind, "openness" dictates they should communicate that. Then, "openess" dictates the female should not 'retreat from marriage' or 'lie' about anything, just as the man should not either.

Within that context, then, the man has NO responsiblity at all, only to be open about what he is thinking/feeling in that moment, and the female has NO justification for being deceptive or lying.

cxj · 2017-12-22T20:31:57+00:00

Imo this is a classic case between “reasonable” and “realistic.” Yes, it is absolutely reasonable to assume that marriage defaults to children, but in today’s society this is not entirely realistic.

One should be able to reasonably assume marriage = kids, but if you do this in today’s era you’re asking for trouble.

despisedlove2 · 2017-12-23T06:07:33+00:00

Don't know.

My ex wife put off having kids (which we had both agreed upon prior to getting married) until she was in a position to divorce me. I will likely die childless as a result.

DarkLord0chinChin · 2017-12-21T18:57:21+00:00

Is a wife justified for retreating from the marriage or lying about birth control to get pregnant if her husband isn't budging on kids after agreeing to them before?

She would be if legal paternal surrender was a thing

Title	"Dead Cradling"
Author	notworthmuch20xx
Upvotes	6
Comments	59
Date	December 21, 2017 6:44 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/7lbguz/dead_cradling/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/dead-cradling.264414 https://theredarchive.com/post/264414

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