Is anyone here really postmodern?

crackrocksteady7 · 2018-04-18T15:25:06+00:00

Other end of the spectrum. The bp frame is busy destroying objective reasoning as a concept to preserve feelings, I'm thinking democracy is a mistake

Electra_Cute · 2018-04-18T15:10:01+00:00

Actually postmodernism in terms of philosophy and attitude was defined in John Lyotard's book The Postmodern Condition in which he describes it as an "incredulity toward meta-narratives”. I can explain what postmodernism is to you more in depth if you have specific questions about it as I have spent a lot of time reading up on this subject.

We live in the postmodern era, I think most people here have postmodern opinions, views and ideas because of this. In terms of someone being "ontologically" postmodern as in "being" a postmodernist, I would happily describe myself as one and have no issues with it. Most people here are skeptical towards most meta-narratives and create their own self-referential neopragmatic ones. A lot of what you see on the Pillsphere is exactly what Lyotard was describing as "the postmodern condition".

Reven311 · 2018-04-18T18:24:23+00:00

Postmodernism is why Trump is President, in large part. It's a failure, but people haven't accepted that yet. Even Noam Chomsky thinks it's ridiculous and juvenile.

says_harsh_things · 2018-04-18T15:27:57+00:00

Good luck with peer-review when your subjective reality doesn't match anyone elses and all of this gender-studies academia eats itself from the inside out.

haunting-you · 2018-04-18T15:24:10+00:00

As an aside, I love how bloops on this sub make the case that masculinity as a whole is not being attacked. Just enter any social studies course in academia and you will see objective logical reasoning being attributed to masculinity and futher taught it is problematic and classist wrong-think.

can you explain how this is related to your OP? as it stands, it just appears to be an unrelated jab at "bloops", which you can easily just post under automod or elsewhere.

hammerhaunts · 2018-04-18T15:10:33+00:00

"Objectivity as found through rational thought, is a western and masculine concept, which we will challenge throughout this text."

I wish I could get paid to write this

Noxin__Nixon · 2018-04-18T15:44:59+00:00

Yes.

Morality is relative IMO and certainly does not necessarily derive from religion (although religion can be good for some people)

apube · 2018-04-18T16:02:39+00:00

"Objectivity as found through rational thought, is a western and masculine concept, which we will challenge throughout this text."

I really need the context for this, and the following arguments the author makes to judge this quote at all. Is she saying that objective facts don't exist, or that objectivity is impossible for people? One is clearly untrue, the latter you can make a pretty solid argument for, especially considering the scope of the text.

SlimLovin · 2018-04-18T16:30:28+00:00

"Objectivity as found through rational thought, is a western and masculine concept, which we will challenge throughout this text."

This is why you go to college: To have your preconceived notions challenged.

TheGreasyPole · 2018-04-18T17:07:34+00:00

I don't think anyone here is going to be able to hold the line of defending that they are genuinely a post-modernist. To do so is going to require taking positions that are perfectly "respectable" philosophically, but will be laughed off the thread in this environment (tethered as it is to reality).

abaxeron · 2018-04-18T18:36:37+00:00

OoOOoOOooh let me ramble a little.

There's (at least was) an article on RationalWiki called "Engineers and Woo", pointing out that there's a bunch of evidence showing that engineers are the most prone to believing in all sorts of crazy stuff.

As an engineer, I confirm this 100%

One of my coworkers believes in ancient super-civilization that domesticated moose and created zika virus as a biological weapon against their lesser foes. Another one believes that classical (pre-2000) Disney animations contain a "subhumanization" routine and should never be shown to children. Another one legitimately believes in worldwide Jewish conspiracy.

BUT. All of this FADES in comparison with philosophers.

I'll give you one link just to demonstrate that philosophy is nothing but a competition in who manages to say something that makes sense without repeating someone else who came before

So, for me, the only way to answer OP's question ("Is anyone here really postmodern?") is to say back: define "really postmodern" and give a criterion to distinguish it from "not really postmodern"..... and watch how soon OP runs out of fuel.

blackedoutfast · 2018-04-18T20:23:03+00:00

yes, but it's hard to have a discussion about this subject because it's so meta.

people tend to confuse postmodern philosophy with particular political/social movements that just used postmodernism as a tool to attack and defeat the establishment. but they were so successful and we've been in this so long that those formerly rebels have become the dogmatic, strict, repressive establishment.

all the gender identity, race stuff, feminism, liberals, etc that used postmodernism to bypass the authoritative traditional establishment's accusations of wrongthink and thought-crimes by arguing that there is no Truth are now themselves the establishment who is accusing people of wrongthink and thoughtcrime.

"Objectivity as found through rational thought, is a western and masculine concept, which we will challenge throughout this text."

this quote is a perfect example. objectivity is wrong and individuale opinions are all valid. there is no universal truth. blah blah blah. EXCEPT WESTERN/MASCULINE THOUGHT IS INHERENTLY BAD AND WRONG!

they've painted themselves into a corner. they came to power by destroying respect and obedience toward authority and Truth. but now that they're in power, they're trying to use respect and obedience toward authority and Truth to hold down their opposition. but the opposition is starting to realize that they can use the same tools.

redpill/manosphere, gamergate, 4chan, alt-right tiki torch nazis, and DONALD FUCKING TRUMP are all examples of this new use of postmodernism.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2018-04-19T03:25:09+00:00

The problem is that even a lot of "postmodernists" aren't really postmodern.

Let us define "postmodernism" as an "incredulity towards metanarratives." Effectively an extreme kind of skepticism towards ideas like there being an "arc of history" or some kind of natural progression in human societies.

But much of the "postmodern" left-wing activist bullshit we see in the humanities pushes a metanarrative of its own.

"Western society is defined by a power structure that privileges white, cisgender, heterosexual, ablebodied, Christian maleness over other ways of being, and all cultural artifacts of this power structure evidence this cultural hegemony" is itself a metanarrative. Then they bring in notions of historical progress away from more oppressive and towards less oppressive societal forms.

This is the same metanarrative pushed by Gramsci and the Frankfurt School of Marxist Critical Theory, but repurposed to be intersectional and basically to 'de-center' class oppression and make it more about race, sex etc.

A consistent postmodernism would be critical even of this kind of pseudo-Marxist (or perhaps "post-Marxist") story; case in point is that Michel Foucault, one of the luminaries of postmodernism, was a critic of Marxism and even became fond of the works of the classical liberal economist Hayek in his later life.

A lot of the "postmodernism" we see really just uses "postmodernism" as a convenient intellectual solvent against its enemies. After they have splashed around enough postmodernism, they revert to the kind of Grand Narratives beloved of Gramsci and the like, of a cultural hegemony to be resisted and overthrown in order to achieve social progress.

So my position is that a lot of "postmodernists" or "postmodernism" is really just this inconsistent, weaponized set of ideas that are drafted into the service of perpetuating a different grand narrative, rather than a genuine skepticism towards such narratives.

As for where I stand on postmodernism itself... I am highly critical of it. It has some points though; it is quite possible that people in power can perpetuate self-serving ideas. It is important we be skeptical and not take anything for granted. We shouldn't treat mere eccentricity or difference as a disease to be cured. I am fond of Foucault's critique of psychiatry as well, and he isn't wrong to point out that social norms can potentially be constraining and even tyrannical at times. But that doesn't mean there is no objective truth or reality, or that all ideas are necessarily going to be the self-serving rationalizations of the powerful or those who want to acquire power. It doesn't mean that there are no legitimate grand narratives.

In addition, whilst a lot of the destructive impact postmodernism has had on academia is a product of the weaponized, inconsistent, postmodernism-plus-Gramscian-ideas clusterfuck rather than pure postmodernism itself, we cannot pretend that postmodern ideas have not had a terrible impact on the academy. They've systematically destroyed the arts and humanities and greatly wounded the social sciences, and they also produce SJWs as an atrocious negative externality.

Postmodernism is in need of some vigorous critique to say the least.

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CursedLemon · 2018-04-18T23:29:24+00:00

Postmodernism does not have a reliable definition that isn't hopelessly sunk into any one person's own internal philosophical context and jargon.

So, probably everyone and no one.

[deleted] · 2018-04-20T13:50:02+00:00

I don't think it's possible to be postmodern, since postmodernism is nonsensical and self defeating. You can't be anything if you are so far up your own ass with deconstructing everything that you can't employ concepts like "be" or "exist" or "is" or "I" without devolving into some babbling tangent directed against white men and the historical injustice of it all.

Lots of effort being devoted to proving how smart, edgy and meta one is, lots of money changing hands in art galleries and universities, and not a whole lot going on intellectually. That's postmodernism.

S1imdragxn · 2018-04-20T19:17:31+00:00

Yeah I am probably Nietzsches most enthusiastic modern disciple

I’m pretty thoroughly postmodern compared to the others here

I don’t believe in the arc of history teleology or progressivism at all

I don’t believe in modern science

I don’t really believe in anything other than what I can see and feel

It’s true that leftists and now rightwingers have figured out how to weaponize postmodern thought

It’s a useful weapon because it is ironically the truth

carefreevermillion · 2018-04-18T15:43:09+00:00

I'm pretty anti- postmodernism, but that's because I'm pro- objective and empirical truth.

Title	Is anyone here really postmodern?
Author	Mr_Smoogs
Upvotes	10
Comments	194
Date	April 18, 2018 3:04 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/8d6asx/is_anyone_here_really_postmodern/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-anyone-here-really-postmodern.262832 https://theredarchive.com/post/262832

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