What does it mean to be a man?

ABlackKidOnTheNet · 2018-10-23T21:21:20+00:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxCm7JkpFt0 This guy claims its based on being reasonabe above emotion. Is there anyone whod like to express different ideas?...

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It's a huge point of insecurity and confusion for men. They all like to think they're a "blend" or "compromise" for women and TRP is where they land when their wife trades for a night with dealer or DJ and they're trying to figure out why their "nice guy with an edge" program didn't work.

Then they get dressed down and realize their edge was just an ego defense, and they're harmless.

Depending on goals, this isn't a bad thing. If the guy wants to chase romance and is willing to destroy himself for the illusion of the disney princess, so be it.

And for women, you, which we've exchanged many messages, are allowed to persist as the naive good hearted woman only so long as you remain naive.

Once a woman starts going down a darker path, that game is over. And then they stop being "normal." So as we've already discussed, you've hit the jackpot.

Keep his stomach full, balls empty and massage his ego and he'll take you to your grave.

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This is an ages-old philosophical question. It's why many cultures have a rite of passage from boyhood into manhood, whether that's dancing with bullet ant gloves on your hands, going out naked into the plains on a vision quest, killing your first animal on a hunt, getting drafted and going to war, or what-have-you.

In most cultures, becoming a man is the point when, unlike children, you begin to have societal expectations placed upon you. You are expected to become a productive member of society. It's not so much about being free from emotion as having an expectation to be productive and emotions being something that gets in the way of that.

Not surprisingly, in first-world cultures during peacetime, where life is very easy and society is very permissive, many boys tend to flounder and struggle with entry into manhood. The modern push is for there to be no definition of manhood, or any gender for that matter, and that anything anybody wants to do is equal and valid, and the whole point of life is just to be free and happy. Freedom and hedonism have supplanted societal obligations and rites of passage.

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Opinions differ on that one.

40 years ago, someone would tell you that the guy who played high school football, learned how to change a tire from his Dad, served in the Vietnam war, worked his way up from the bottom in a company as soon as he was discharged, supported his wife and two kids, fixed everything around the house himself, and worked with lumber as a hobby is more of a "man" than a skinny 22 year old today with a hipster beard who identifies as a feminist and thinks he might be bisexual.

But try announcing in public that the bisexual feminist hipster isn't a "real man" and you'll be crucified.

Never mind the fact that this guy doesn't have many friends, can't get laid to save his life, and nobody will hire him. Society still celebrates his choices because he's free to make them and who are we to tell this loser that he's supposed to conform to some outdated gender role.

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[–]darksoldierkPurple Pill0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

See, the problem with people who say this is that it just feels like they grew up in this feminist world and all they ever knew was what feminism told them. "A woman can do anything a man can do". You sound very inexperienced and young. It's okay, I thought the same as you when I was 18-23, then I moved past the school system. Past high school and college, and I went into the real world.

When you are in the real world, you'll see it. Women have a hard time having reason above emotion. They try, and you can tell that they are trying, but I've had to say to my female boss a few times "I know this is how you feel and it's what you want, but just look at this objectively. You can't reasonably have these expectations". My female boss, a few times has asked me to use up my billable time to help out clients on the verge of bankruptcy, who owe us tens of thousands of dollars and who we knew weren't going to pay. Women are nice, they are sympathetic, but that's not always the kind of behavior that's applicable to business. There is an opportunity cost for doing the things that cater to your feelings.

In the non-professional world (ie. firms), you'll see that women tend to cry a lot more. They complain a lot more. They get stressed faster, expect more time off etc.etc. All of these things are because of how they feel, they don't seem to be capable of understanding that the cost of their tears, the cost of of their time off is that someone else in the office (usually a man) would have to complete the work that she isn't.

It would be hard for me to say that I never felt like helping someone who needed it (I gave them my number and helped them in my free time), hard for me to say that I don't get stressed, or that I never felt like breaking down and crying right there in the middle of the office, but I never have. And I have yet to meet a man who has. Yet you see these kinds of women in the real world fairly regularly, at least I have.

[–]legaladvicequest5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

The things you're saying directly contradict my personal experience, but I'll try to take you seriously because you seem genuinely sincere.

The thing is that not everyone reasons the same way. This boss woman reasons that protecting people from bankruptcy is worth while. Your eyes are on money above all else. Neither is brainlessly emotional; the approaches are just varied: one's more utilitarian and the other is more capitalistic. One without the other is weak, which is why you're better together. If we were all guys like you, a couple of the most sociopathic business successes would live in sky-high mansions built from the last lumber from the rainforests with high tech oxygen recycling machines while the rest of the planet is nuked by radiation streaming through the lack of Earthly ozone, metaphorically speaking. If we were all like your boss lady, every business on the planet would be non-profit because capitalism literally would not work. Together you are better, complementary and not equal, and you can moderate each other's extremes.

In a way you should be grateful that women put effort into communicating their needs. "Complaining," hah. Your workplace is improved because women demanded it in a way that made the people in charge respond. When women went into the work force, industrial feminists jumped political hoops to improve workplace conditions for women that also made workplace quality of life better for men. It's not "complaining" or emotional weakness to say, "Working 60 hour weeks isn't a realistic option for me if I want to be in my kids' lives; let's get overtime paid better" or "I want a gas mask if I'm going to work in this coal mine." Suddenly when women are working in coal mines and having miscarriages due to super shitty working conditions everyone cares because it hurts birthrates. I'm not saying that all men just grinned and bore it until they died from black lung (well... some did), but the acquisition of workplace rights correlates with women taking jobs outside of the home and some of their contribution is documented in the article I linked.

Crying allows cortisol to leave your body; it literally de-stresses you chemically. What's irrational about that? Smiling and frowning are communications that nearly every culture recognizes. Emotional acuity is linguistic genius, and part of the power of our species is in our ability to communicate. If I'm crying, other people can easily understand that I need help. Of course the gender that is physically weaker will be naturally more gifted at communicating its needs. To me, feelings over reason go something like, "I am going to buy and pop pain meds that I can't afford because it makes me feel good" or "I'm gonna cheat on my spouse because it's what I want." Both men and women are guilty of things like these.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and impressions.

[–]darksoldierkPurple Pill1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

The thing is that not everyone reasons the same way. This boss woman reasons that protecting people from bankruptcy is worth while

Thing is, we are running a firm, not a charity. It's worthwhile because she feels it's worthwhile, logically, it isn't worthwhile in the business. It's not about trying to find reason for emotional decisions, it's about one's ability to think logically. You are running a business, the intent of a business is to generate cash flow through profit. If a client is not paying the bill and consistently hasn't paid the bill, then logically, that customer isn't good for your business.

If we were all guys like you, a couple of the most sociopathic business successes would live in sky-high mansions built from the last lumber from the rainforests with high tech oxygen recycling machines while the rest of the planet is nuked by radiation streaming through the lack of Earthly ozone, metaphorically speaking

I don't know how you figured this from my mentality. I said that if you are running a business with the intent of making a profit, then do not spend business hours (which cost the business money) to help people if they aren't covering your cost and margin. It's like I said, I've felt bad for clients, but I gave them my number and email, and they got in touch with me after work hours and I helped them, free of charge. If I want to help someone, I sacrifice my time, not my business' time. You understand? Billable hours are just that, billable-hours. Every hour at work should be billed to the client, because every hour not billed to the client costs the business money, which goes against the inherent purpose of the business (which is to make money). You understand the logic?

Personally, I think that if women like my boss thought a little more logically, then the business would be better for it. Which is what is meant by putting reason above emotion. Without the success of a business, we wouldn't have an income, which makes it reasonable to put the needs of the business before our own emotional desires.

I skimmed through that article you posted, I didn't see anywhere that said that it had a positive effect on men. It mostly discusses the effects of feminism on women. Please clarify where it discusses the benefits that men received.

As far as I can tell, men are now working in an environment where they walk on eggshells all day long. God forbid he looks in the general direct of Anne's V-top, which while everyone knows is completely inappropriate, even HR is afraid of telling her because they are afraid that she'll accuse them of some kind of harassment or bullying. Men now face a world where raises are more often given based on how long a employee has been at the position instead of based on competition. Men now face a world where they are getting fired from BOD positions simply because a company has to fill a quota, in other words, people are being hired based on what's in between their legs instead of what's in between their ears. And, if I remember correctly, a study in Austria (or was it Australia, it's a pretty famous study, you probably know about it) that had the intention of showing hiring discrimination against was cut short when the statistics were showing that there is actually a hiring discrimination against men. This was the one where they tried to remove any gender indicators from applications, and found out that an application that indicated that the person was male was less likely to be selected or hired. I can find the study if you like, but like I said, it was discussed often in the news and even on here a few months ago.

I'm not saying that all men just grinned and bore it until they died from black lung (well... some did), but the acquisition of workplace rights correlates with women taking jobs outside of the home and some of their contribution is documented in the article I linked.

You can't seriously be attributing the improvement of specific working conditions to feminism. You do know that the first union was made in 1810, right? Women wanted jobs, they forced the government to force companies to make the workplace more comfortable towards them at the expense of the comfort of men. Don't kid yourself, men didn't benefit from feminism's effect on the workplace, men paid and are still paying for the comforts of women.

It isn't women who promoted safety, as an example, look at the construction industry. Although the construction industry currently has the highest standards for safety (in many if not most civilized countries), men still dominate that industry. Women don't want to work there, yet the exclusion of women in that industry didn't stop the industry from implementing better working conditions.

Crying allows cortisol to leave your body; it literally de-stresses you chemically.

It's unprofessional. If you can't handle your emotions at work, then you shouldn't be working. We all get stressed, but we have responsibilities. When women cry, the natural reaction of the boss is to send her home or take work off her desk, but that work still needs to get done. So the boss assigns it to some other poor shlub. Her behavior, her inability to manage her emotions is irrational because she took on a job with specific responsibilities, she needs to carry out those responsibilities, she's getting paid to carry out those responsibilities. It's irrational for her to cry because by crying, like you said, she's asking for help, and in this case, that help that she is asking for is for someone to lighten her workload. But she's getting paid for that workload. I don't understand how you can see a woman's behavior as rational. I mean, rationally, if a woman cries (or a man for that matter), the company should be able to fire her because she is behaving unprofessional and she is illustrating that she cannot handle the job that she is getting paid to do. If you want to discuss rationality in that regard, then that's the way it should be, but it isn't.

. To me, feelings over reason go something like

What about "I'm going to cry because I have so much work that I can't finish, so instead of spending every minute available trying to finish it, i'm just going to cry and waste the time I have in hopes that the work gets reallocated to someone who probably doesn't get paid as much as I do and whose job isn't to do these tasks". Does that sound like it's reason over emotion?

[–]legaladvicequest3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]darksoldierkPurple Pill1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Uh, well, in the 4 professional jobs that I've worked at, there have been 5 women who have broken down and become a burden at some point. That's excluding women who broke down because of a family emergency (car accident, cancer etc etc). One woman, who was my manager broke down during a very time sensitive project. She got stressed, and just left. You know what happened? I was at work until 4 in the morning doing her job for her. What, you think I didn't get stressed? you think I didn't just want to say "fuck this, I'm out" and leave? I did, but I have responsibilities, and I would have been held at a higher standard because I am a man.

I remember one woman, this was when I was 16 and working at mini grocery store. she got upset over something, stat right in front of the cash and started crying. I had customers tell me "what the fuck did you do to her? Tell me or I'm going to call the police". You know what I was told by management, "you are the guy, you are supposed to handle the situation". This is the real world. Women get it with a cherry on top, men get it raw.

[–]legaladvicequest0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Part 1

> I was at work until 4 in the morning doing her job for her.

Why did you do that? Perhaps consider that you could have used her strategy and... just left, especially once your paid hours are up. From this paragraph I'm getting that you see yourself as Atlas, with the planet on your shoulders. You don't have to do the jobs of incapable people; in fact, if she's unstable and leaves her work undone, file a complaint and get her out of the job she can't handle. Let her work go undone until the higher ups notice and fire her and put someone actually competent in charge: maybe you! Never ever take on increased job responsibilities without increased financial compensation or you perpetuate the system you hate.

> I would have been held at a higher standard because I am a man.

Some women are weak because it's in their DNA. Some women are weak because we coddle them. DO NOT CODDLE WOMEN. Treat them equally, hold them to the same high standards that you hold men. This is how we create the change we want to see.

> there have been 5 women who have broken down and become a burden at some point

I thought about this overnight and tried to imagine what happens in a world where women are breaking down all of the time and attempted to imagine what could contribute to a gap where women are emotional messes and men are not. Then I remembered the suicide statistics I've seen linked here. Did you know that men commit suicide far more often than women do, and with much higher success rates per attempt? I think that there's something wrong with the world, and men and women are both suffering. The way they show that they suffer is different, though. Do you agree?

> "you are the guy, you are supposed to handle the situation"

You were 16. There's no reason you should have been expected to handle a coworker's emotional breakdown. I'm sorry that toxic gender roles have hurt you. They've hurt me, too. When I was taking thermo in college, a man saw me studying at a gym pool and said something along the lines of, "You shouldn't have to do that; a lady like you can get a guy to do that for her." It's toxic, and it's part of why we're here now trying to make sense of all of the sickness that society has spewed into our minds.

> Women get it with a cherry on top, men get it raw.

You know when you are slighted because you live that life. Have you been fired from a bar tending job because your recently divorced male manager doesn't like when old guys hit on you? I have. Have you persistently been told that your athletic achievements don't matter because a guy in a wig can beat you with no practice? I have. I live a life where, just because of the DNA I'm born with, I'm automatically weaker than the half of the population that has literal naturally produced steroids pumping through their heart. That is certainly a disadvantage. You mentioned construction work: I can never do that as well as you can, and it's not because I don't have intelligence or will. Do you know what it feels like to have a person 50-100 lbs heavier and who builds muscle 4x more easily become sexually aggressive towards you? I do, because it happens often and it's terrifying. I know that you take on burdens that I don't. I hope you know I'm not arguing that, but there are two sides to this coin. I wonder if you're able to think of any ways that women might be disadvantaged in our societal structure.

Back to your earlier post:

> You are running a business, the intent of a business is to generate cash flow through profit.

I wonder if all of the business owners agree with you. Google seems to think that this the purpose of a business is this: "The primary purpose of a business is to maximize profits for its owners or stakeholders while maintaining corporate social responsibility." Again, we see two halves of a coin. It's almost shocking how you perfectly embody the first part and your boss perfectly embodies the second part.

> You understand the logic?

I do understand the logic, but I think your approach is over systematized and it's great that you have a boss who balances you out.

> Without the success of a business, we wouldn't have an income, which makes it reasonable to put the needs of the business before our own emotional desires.

Certainly. This is why they hired you- because your approach is valuable, literally.

> I skimmed through that article you posted, I didn't see anywhere that said that it had a positive effect on men. It mostly discusses the effects of feminism on women. Please clarify where it discusses the benefits that men received.

Sure, I will annotate the article here with you so that you can understand that while the article is female-focused, many of the benefits that women received also applied to men. I'll work about half way through the article to point out relevant parts from the pre-1960's.

> That period began with the creation of the Women’s Trade Union League (WTUL) in 1903. The League, as it was known by its members, drew together educated women reformers (mostly white, Protestant, and native-born) and young women workers (many of them immigrant Jews, Italians, and Irish) to improve factory wages, working conditions, and hours. The WTUL embodied both an unusual degree of collaboration between feminists and the labor movement, and the many tensions that arose from longstanding attempts to build lasting and productive relationships.

Here we see an improvement in lifestyle that didn't solely affect women.

> Middle-class and affluent supporters of woman suffrage—including League activists, college students, and even wealthy socialites—saw these strikes as an opportunity to win working women to the cause. Forming what the press dubbed “mink brigades,” affluent supporters marched alongside young immigrant women on picket lines in a largely successful attempt to reduce high rates of police brutality.

Do we agree that the primary victims of police brutality are male? While the purpose of the feminists here is to keep women strikers safe, we can imagine that on this topic feminism may benefit men even more than it benefited women by bringing attention to the way police treat people.

> Frances Perkins (the future U.S. Secretary of Labor under Franklin Roosevelt) of the National Consumers League and Pauline Newman (a former Triangle employee and WTUL activist) were appointed as investigators for the New York State Factory Investigating Commission (FIC), positions they used to educate powerful politicians about the conditions under which working women labored. Over the next three years, the New York FIC, and sister organizations in the other industrial states, pushed through a dramatically expanded regulatory structure for factory labor—including laws that empowered state commissioners of labor, banned the labor of children under the age of fourteen, and required inspection of elevators and fireproof devices.

[–]darksoldierkPurple Pill1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Why did you do that?

Because as a man, I am held to a different standard than women. See, this is what I mean, women don't understand how the load that the benefits that they claim to help men have actually hurt men. I have a job. My job isn't done at 5, my job is done when the work is done. And I did that because there was no choice. Work isn't about employing strategies, it's about responsibility. If I left, we would have had to employ rollback procedures, as per the law. Failure to do so could get the company fined for non-compliance. That fine would be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars which would have required a reduction in costs, and therefore, a reduction in jobs. I don't know about you, but I'd rather work an extra 12 hours then risk even the slightest chance that even 1 person will lose a job which they rely on to support themselves or their families. Rollback procedures can only be done after the office and all of the warehouses have closed, and every hour that the business runs complicates the rollback procedures. As opposed to working an extra 12 hours for 1 day, I would have been working an extra 12 hours for 2 or 3 days.

if she's unstable and leaves her work undone, file a complaint and get her out of the job she can't handle

Again, you don't understand the world that men live in. I filed complaints to HR a few times throughout my career for various issues, most of them were ignored. The biggest complaint was sexual harassment when a woman locked me in a filing room and got all touchy. If a woman complained, they would take it seriously, but men don't get the same support from HR or the labour board. We are held to a different standard. We have to be, if labour laws treated men and women equally, then business would shut down because work wouldn't be completed at a sufficient rate. The nice thing about it is that, management realized what I had. Their words were "we appreciate your commitment and recognize the work that you have done. We wanted to compensate you, but you need to realize that you work with 1 other person, on paper, she has more experience, more education and has worked here longer than you have. If we promote you or give you a raise that puts you at her level of pay or higher, which is what we think you deserve, but we are opening ourselves up for gender discrimination issues with the labor board. We just wanted you to know that we do appreciate you, and we understand if you get frustrated enough to find something else, it's a tough position for you to be in, but we really want you to stay". That's what I got. They basically told me straight up that no matter how hard I worked no matter what I did, my ability to move up was limited by women because of labour laws.

Never ever take on increased job responsibilities without increased financial compensation or you perpetuate the system you hate.

Perpetuation of the system isn't done by people who complete the work, it's done by government intervention that forces corporations to give preferential treatment to a specific group of people.

DO NOT CODDLE WOMEN. Treat them equally, hold them to the same high standards that you hold men. This is how we create the change we want to see.

So, interesting story, a few years after I left the first job with the issue I mentioned, I worked at another job in a managerial position. I like to empower my employees, I want them to think, to suggest, to try. I had a problem that I didn't know the answer to and needed some help from my employees. So I asked them to brainstorm some ideas for me. We had a meeting, we all discussed some ideas, had some laughs, whatever. We had narrowed it down to two options, one idea came from a male member and the other from a female member. I told them I'd analyse both options, thanked them for their time and expertise and they all left. I ended up choosing the man's idea. The woman found out (I knew she inevitably would, I just never thought in my life that it would make a difference). She came into my office, said she really thought her idea was better, and I told her that based on the analysis that I had, the other idea was more practical and effective. A week later I got called into HR. You know what they told me? "you need to realize that you can't treat women the same way that you treat men. Men and women aren't the same". I was confused, didn't understand what I had done that was so wrong. Apparently, by saying that her idea wasn't as practical and effective, I implied that she was a dumbass. I told HR "I can't be held responsible for things I didn't say", and they said "yes, you can. You need to realize that women are more emotional than men and you need to take that into consideration. When you say things, you need to remember how what you say will make a woman feel. She didn't say that you disrespected her or that you behaved inappropriately towards her in any way, but which is why i'm not writting you up now, but keep in mind how women feel in the future, because next time you may not be so lucky". This was a female HR manager who was in her early-to-mid 30's?

Did you know that men commit suicide far more often than women do, and with much higher success rates per attempt? I think that there's something wrong with the world, and men and women are both suffering. The way they show that they suffer is different, though. Do you agree?

Absolutely. But did you know the rates of men's suicide has increasing faster in the last 20 years then ever before? Men live in a world where they are "pedophiles, until they die without fucking a child", where they are "rapists, until they die without committing rape". Men live in a world where they aren't even allowed to choose their fatherhood in the same capacity as women. Where their ability to be involved in their children's lives is limited by lawyers and paperwork. Men have problems, and so do women, but women have support, men don't. The world has been changing to cater to women at the expense of men.

"The primary purpose of a business is to maximize profits for its owners or stakeholders while maintaining corporate social responsibility."

Look, I've been in business for a while now. I've studied every part of business for 12 years. Corporate social responsibility is at the forefront of every business, it's a part of every successful business' strategy, vision and mission. It is integral, not only for the financial success of the business, but for the economic success of our society, so that we can produce a world where our children don't breath through a gas mask. Corporate social responsibility isn't about helping every person who has a little bad luck. It isn't on the micro level, it's on the macro.

Certainly. This is why they hired you- because your approach is valuable, literally.

You know what would more valuable? If everyone had this approach. Because this approach is what determines the success of a business, and by creating a successful company, that company will have more resources to contribute to CSR that you mentioned in a meaningful and effective way.

Here we see an improvement in lifestyle that didn't solely affect women.

You need to realize that these things were not initiated by women. Have you heard of the "nine hour movement"? In 1872 they fought for shorter work days, they were ultimately unsuccessful, but they were an early indicator of where labour laws were going. Men fought for those rights 60 years before women, and in the 60 years that occurred between the fight by men and the fight by women for similar changes in working conditions, there was a generation whose votes were being influenced by ideas of better working conditions. I would say that it wasn't feminism that brought about this progression in labour laws, but rather, that it was the joint effort of men and women over a significant period of time to enact a change in perception, which in turn, resulted in a change of work environment.

Do we agree that the primary victims of police brutality are male? While the purpose of the feminists here is to keep women strikers safe, we can imagine that on this topic feminism may benefit men even more than it benefited women by bringing attention to the way police treat people.

Irregardless, the fact is that women wouldn't have given a shit if police brutality was only applicable to men. Like you said, the purpose wasn't to increase awareness of police brutality, it was about keeping WOMEN strikers safe. Ultimately, if there was an effect on police brutality, it didn't affect men as we all know that police brutality (specifically on people of color) is still an issue as of today.

[–]legaladvicequest0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

> I am held to a different standard than women. my job is done when the work is done.

By your own self. Have you read Animal Farm? You're exhibiting the traits of the horse in some ways. There will always be work, and you're paid to do a specific job; I don't know about your job, but I can bet that your job description isn't "do everyone else's work if they don't."

> The biggest complaint was sexual harassment when a woman locked me in a filing room got all touchy

:(

> We are held to a different standard. We have to be, if labor laws treated men and women equally, then business would shut down because work wouldn't be completed as a sufficient rate.

Equality is important for so many reasons. Men shouldn't have to be more competent than women. If we're truly treated equally, then our standard is the same standard- the only area I can't see equal expectations is in the realm of physical strength because you are naturally on a steroid that I'm not on.

> Perpetuation of the system is... done by government intervention that forces corporations to give preferential treatment to a specific group of people.

The labor board does not force you to think you are more responsible than others. It doesn't force you to do your boss's work at your own expense. Show me how preference is given to women over men. I'm not talking about quotas forcing the business to represent the population equally or about affirmative action designed to equalize what has previously been a system biased heavily towards white land-owning Christian men. Show me that women are more likely to advance to better paid positions than men despite roughly equal work quality, are seen (in a sociological sense) as better leaders even when they have less to offer as leaders, are more respected / supported by peers of both genders than men just automatically, etc. Anything like that, send me the studies. I want to read them. I want to understand.

> That's what I got. They basically told me straight up that no matter how hard I worked no matter what I did, my ability to move up was limited by women because of labor laws.

What a horrible message. Did you immediately quit? They admitted a glass ceiling. You might actually have a great case for discrimination (thanks, feminism, for the forced equal treatment between genders by law), but I'm not sure what the statue of limitations is on that. Have you shown that email to a lawyer? They literally verbally admitted that you're being treated worse because of gender... and in my understanding that's not legal here.

> This was a female HR manager who was in her early-to-mid 30's?

The self-sexism is real. Can I ask if you'd have said or done anything differently if you'd chosen the woman's idea and the man had come to you with the same complaint?

> The world has been changing to cater to women at the expense of men.

When I was younger, my little brother helped me give my little cousin a bath. When my uncle heard, he was upset and shocked that my little brother had assisted. He was such an innocent kid and there was nothing perverted about it. I've seen what you're talking about; I've witnessed it, and it's an embittering system. I see a movement coming that will balance us culturally, an equal opposite to the movement that's given women equal inheritance laws and workplace opportunity. If I was born in my grandma's time, I couldn't have attended my university and become a scientist; that change only came around in the 1960's. Things will change for men, because you aren't the only one who wants equal opportunity to love your children. One of my favorite thing about male spaces like TRP is that they identify real inequalities and get people aware of them. Acknowledgement is the first step, and I appreciate guys like you who take the precious time they're given to put these issues on blast.

> I would say that it wasn't feminism that brought about this progression in labor laws, but rather, that it was the joint effort of men and women over a significant period of time to enact a change.

Feminism was one tool in the box, in my opinion.

> women wouldn't have given a shit if police brutality was only applicable to men

I'm not sure about that. I would be pretty flaming mad if my brother or husband or lab mates were beaten by the police. The feminist movement wouldn't necessarily make it a priority, but that's because the focus there is on womens' rights specifically. Again, thank you for your time.

[–]legaladvicequest0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Part 2

Women don't work in exclusive circles of only women. Improvement of working conditions helps all of the workers.

> Perkins oversaw the extension of wage-and-hour and safety protections for all workers, regardless of gender, through the National Labor Relations Act of 1935 and the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) of 1938. These laws marked a turning point for union men who had long been ambivalent toward the idea of legislating labor conditions. No longer were strategies for improving the lives of workers so starkly divided by sex.

Here we see the article directly addresses the effects of feminism on male workers. I hope it's not necessary for me to continue annotating to prove my point.

> As far as I can tell, men are now working in an environment where they walk on eggshells all day long.

I'm sorry.

> You can't seriously be attributing the improvement of specific working conditions to feminism. You do know that the first union was made in 1810, right?

I am suggesting that feminism contributed to improved working conditions, as the article details. I'm not saying that men didn't do anything for themselves. Don't make a strawman out of my argument.

> the company should be able to fire her because she is behaving unprofessional and she is illustrating that she cannot handle the job that she is getting paid to do.

100% agree. No one should be manipulating on the regular to get coworkers picking up slack. I have so little experience with women using crying to get out of work duties that I still don't even know how to respond to this.

Again, thanks for taking the time to defend your view points. It's a pleasure to sharpen my mind with other sharp minds. :)

[–]darksoldierkPurple Pill0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Women don't work in exclusive circles of only women. Improvement of working conditions helps all of the workers.

Yet women don't work to benefit men or to benefit society, they are self-centered. Everything you listed was primarily fought for in order to improve life for women. Now, I'm not saying that feminism didn't do good things, but keep in mind, (and I hate to use this analogy, 'cause it really sucks, but it's gets a point across in an extreme way), a lot of modern medicine comes from the research of the horrid experiments done by the nazi's. I'm not comparing feminism to the nazi movement, I'm simply saying that just because a movement has positive effects, doesn't mean that the movement's ideals or inherent beliefs are acceptable. Yes, feminism contributed to the improving the labour conditions that we now (men and women) enjoy. But feminism moved forward, and it continued it's fight to benefit women at the cost of men. To men, feminism is like the guy that put a dollar in your left pocket but simultaneously took out a dollar from your right pocket. Sure, you now have a dollar in your left pocket, but are you better off?

Whether they realized that cost and simply didn't care, or they didn't realize it at the time is irrelevant. And in the modern world, men are the ones suffering for it. I've listed a few of the things that I, personally, found difficult in my life at the workplace.But the truth is that, most if not all men feel this way or have felt this way at some point in their lives. It's why men no longer announce or tell anyone that they are going out for drinks with other men in the office. I remember setting that stuff up, women would always say "no thanks" when invited, yet we got called out as doing being a "boys club" and again, we were back in front of HR explaining ourselves.

I'm not here to complain, this is how our world works. Men will always be paying for the cost of women's comfort and lives. It's how it's always been. Now men are forced by government policy instead of choosing it and women are allowed to have the illusion that they are standing on their own two feet.

I wanted to honestly say though, it has been a pleasure having this discussion with you.

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I didn't say that they can't job because of emotion. I also recognize that women are competent, and that they often bring in certain skills that men done, just like men often bring in skills that women don't. I was saying that women have a hard time putting reason above emotion, and in business, sometimes you need to put logic and facts above emotions.

I'm saying that when there is a crunch, when I have a week to do 3 weeks worth of work, out of all the colleagues I know, there is only one woman that I would even consider involving. If I have 3 months to do 3 weeks worth of work, sure, I'll pass it to the women, they can do the work just as well.

If I'm working on a client where a women was involved or if she knows them, I often keep them out of it, whereas if it's a client where a male colleague was involved, I'm more likely to work with him. I have to do a risk analysis either way, but based on my experience in my field, women are more likely to show bias then men.

Like I said, it isn't that they are incompetent, it's that they are more emotional than men because our society allows them to be. I've seen men get fired on the spot for crying due to stress, they didn't have the support from the labour board that women have. That is the world that men live in. Since women don't live in that same world, they are a higher risk and often end up being harder to work with (due to their emotions) then men while producing very similar output.

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Title	What does it mean to be a man?
Author	ABlackKidOnTheNet
Upvotes	4
Comments	99
Date	October 23, 2018 9:21 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/9qt9q3/what_does_it_mean_to_be_a_man/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-man.259319 https://theredarchive.com/post/259319

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