Can someone please provide some explanation or analysis over what the hell is wrong with the men in Japan, and what exactly happened to them?

IparryU · 2014-12-28T09:43:40+00:00

Been living in Japan for almost 8 years and i work in finance...

First of all, girls in general are really easy to get (not just for foreigners), but playing around is very common... But condoms are not.

We have love hotels that go for JPY 4000 for 3 hours. This is the low end that is very common and there are themes, better rooms, etc. When you check in, you cannot even see the face of the clerk, just their hands and you basically just choose your room and time frame from a machine on the side and pay on your way out.

There are also kabekura and hostess clubs. Kabekura comes from the words 'cabaret' and 'club' meshed together for a hip theme. This is basically a bar where girls are the bar tenders and drinks are more expensive. You buy the girls drinks too and sort of wait til they are done with their shift. If you played your cards right and were appealing, you can take them home for an additional cost or you wine and dine them and then take them to a love hotel. Hostess clubs are much more higher class, usually in Ginza and you don't have the slight chance of fucking the girls. Just blow money each visit and it is usually old rich guys who have the money to blow.

So there are many options for guys to get off and not have the family BS attached to their life.

There is also an guide line of where you should be in life based on your age. Start Elementary School at 6, finish high school at 18, graduate university at 24.

But for women, they have an age called Christmas cake... Xmas is on the 25... So if you are 26 and not married, your value goes down. Women are expected to be married and have children by 30 and if they don't, it gets much more difficult for them as they get older.

Men on the other hand are encouraged to work their way up to management, which usually comes around 30 ish and then get married as they have to support the family and their wife will leave the work force to become a full-time house wife.

I can go more, but i am doing this on my phone... More than happy to get into more detail if there is demand for it.

EDIT1: Will edit later and note my additions. I will put my life examples in too for some fun. Jist no way I can do this on my SGSIII.

EDIT2: So going to bars here is pretty interesting. Guys usually take girls out, even ratio amongst the group, but the guys separate themselves most the time... Like they sit on opposite sides of the table as the girls and talk, but they never end up switching places and try to close the deal. Seen this several times and the only times I've seen guys take a girl home is if she is piss drunk. Could easily be the bars I go to, but I don't see it much.

Another fun thing is when all girls go out. No guys approach them. But approaching them is a bad tactic as they assume that you do that often. So I usually sit close by and feel the group out, listen to their conversation and see if they are on the hunt or having serious talk. If they start talking about people in the bar, chances go up and I usually get bumped into at some point and I get to saying sorry and mention something that I overheard them speak about. Then I get the whole thing about speaking Japanese and what not. Down hill battle from there.

UnpluggedMan · 2014-12-28T06:56:58+00:00

I personally think that Japan is showing what happens when the conditions of the John B. Calhoun experiments are replicated in a human population.

The population density in places like Tokyo is insane. Despite the fact that there are technically enough of the basic necessities of life (food, water, etc) to support the whole population, all the important social roles, hell, even the trivial ones, are completely filled.

Thus they now have a large surplus of the population that has no clear place in the social order. Competition has become so fierce that the men can no longer carve out a socioeconomic "territory" and effectively defend it. In human terms, that means the work is no longer worth the reward. Thus some begin to opt out, focusing solely on those things that left to them that promise some shred of happiness, or failing that, at least satiation of their basic impulses for a time. This gives us the human equivalent of the mice that did nothing but eat, sleep, and groom themselves. The "herbivore men" in Japan are, at basic level, almost exactly the same as "the beautiful ones" that emerged in Calhoun's moue populations.

It's creepy just how close the match is. It also goes to show that humans are just animals. There is hardly anything we do that isn't just a more complex version of the same behaviors seem in other social animals.

rainmeter1 · 2014-12-28T18:25:16+00:00

I don't see anything wrong with Japan. I lived over there for a year or so, studying aboard. I befriended many Japanese young men and I got an insight into the social dynamics being played in Japan.

Women rule over Japanese men with iron as their fists. We have this masculine conception of Japanese men, the honorable Samurai but reality is far from that.

Women do whatever they want and the men abide. For way too long the salaryman spent the vast majority of their lives working their jobs only to come home and having to hand out their salary to women. When the time to retire arrives, the women don't want to put up with them, regardless of how much the guy worked for the woman he married.

Young men are tired of women. They have to be macho, yet sensitive. They have to look like the movie stars and pop stars, but they have to be muscular and masculine at the same time!

Japanese women are also highly expensive. They always want to have the guy spend his cash on her(like their mothers are used to have) and he has to come home expecting nothing in return.

I mean, in the girl's mind putting up with her for one hour is giving something in return...

Dude, what you see in Japan is going to happen in the western world. I have young brothers who are going to a majorly female college, the women are plenty and beautiful and these dudes would rather play pokemon. Pussy might be the best drug in the world but it is also the most expensive and men can make do without it, lol.

Inelukie · 2014-12-28T15:24:08+00:00

I'd say a good part of this development stems from Japans history and culture.

Japan is a country with very strong social norms. You got your family who will keep an eye on you, your job/school, your neighbourhood. Lots and lots of people constantly check whether or not you do what you are supposed to do. If you fail this check too often or do something outlandish, you might be kicked out of normal society. And not like a western "Oh man, this dude is a weirdo...". It's more like "Oh, let's pretend that person doesn't exist!".

In this enviroment it's almost impossible to really change social norms. Because you would be "that weirdo", who will be dropped instantly.

Now, during the boom-years of Japans economy Japan established a single-earner household model. Dad goes to work, works his 10-12 hours shifts, gets a shit ton of money and everyone is happy. Working had and getting something out of it is fine with most people. This became the norm in Japan.

But the boom-times are over. Yet, the norm and expectations didn't really change. So, guys are expected to work 10-12 hours a day and be the single breadwinner of their family, but they don't earn that much money anymore. If that's the only kind of family you can have, who would bother to marry and start a family? Slaving away your whole life to barely feed a wife and probably even fail at doing so? Doesn't sound like a good deal anymore.

Why not just fuck around like TRP says? A) Because you just came back from a 70 hours work week and might want to relax a day. B) You don't even have that much money left and shopping is the number one hobby for many japanese women. You are paying of course. C) You can't do that at home because people will judge you, hard. Going out means spending lots of money, since we are talking about Japan where you have to pay for everything.

Japan is unable to adapt and that strangles everyone. If you are supposed to do impossible things, you can expect people to drop out and say "fuck you!". Especially if that country builds the worlds largest plaything industry to satisfy any kinds of needs and wants.

gaylord__focker · 2014-12-28T06:04:39+00:00

I come from an economics background and japan is basically a case study of what not to do from an economics standpoint. Other than that I have little to offer.

It is a petri dish of keynesianism economics failure to achieve economies of scale through endless government stimulus. They have national debt levels in the >200% of GDP.And their central bank ran out of ways to curb the problem without causing inflation. Too many people on a small island packed into large cities and too dependent on foreign sources of food, energy and necessities of life etc. It is like the beta guy of an economy. Save the financial sector.

Again, purely from an economic point of view. I really have no clue about their society in general. But liberalism isn't just economics, it runs deep and like a parasite eats into all parts of the way of life. I am afraid Japan is a case study of this.

masterpill7 · 2014-12-28T07:17:25+00:00

This is more of a confirmation bias. You hear of an aging Japan but many western nations have the same problem. They ofset this by encouraging immigration which is why you hear that the USA will a Latino majority country in 20XX. Japan for some reason or another hasnt adopted a similar stance on immigration that its western allies has done.

So really this is a worldwide problem. Russia is the only westernish country that I've noticed try to fix this problem without relying entirely on immigration. Unlike Japan, it appears to have worked. Its birth rate is slowly growing.

So the question you have to ask is why are people in first world countries having less babies? Because shits expensive (among many other reasons). How come my grandpa was able to raise 3 kids and a home stay wife on one income while now a dual income family will have trouble raising a child, paying the morgage, paying off the car and being able to save money for the child's education? Its not really possible unless you want to make a big sacrifice. A sacrifice many Japanese, and other westerners don't feel is worth the effort. I don't blame the Japanese considering all the horror stories I hear about their work culture.

siegristrm · 2014-12-28T14:28:57+00:00

I live in Japan and swear I commented on this before, but the female : male ratio is pretty high. It's not the men becoming herbivores, It's the women. Guys can go out any night and get some, not necessarily true for women. Which is why male services actually do exist out here.

2014-12-28T16:41:56+00:00

From /r/WorldNews:

Wow I totally get that

We have foreign students stay at my house and have had several japanese students over the years. Of the 10 or so japanese only one (a 34 year old woman) had even kissed another person.

I asked her about the society in Japan and she said many japanese don't partake in sex or dating. She said it goes from 0-60 fast. There are no dates. No hooking up at parties. You like a girl, ask her to be your girlfriend and go from there with little to no previous experiences with her.

She said she had 7 boyfriends because in Japan if you are seen hugging or even being friendly with people of the opposite sex people assume you are together because it is not normal behavior. Basically anyone she hooked up with was a boyfriend in everyone else's eyes.

She was very clearly sexual my active and said it was rare to find others similar to herself. And for the other students... yeah not one had had a girlfriend/boyfriend, not one had kissed another person, never been on a date etc. I always made it a point (kind of an icebreaker too) to try and matchmake the Japanese students with someone from here.... they won't have it.

The Japanese people in my experience, wouldn't even talk to someone of the opposite sex beyond a strictly friendship oriented relationship. Even worse, something about the Japanese girls, they are very young at heart... like way young.

I ask if they find this friend or that guy attractive... the answer is always no 100% of the time. I ask what kind of men they do like and they start naming princes from Disney movies.

Some of the most respectful and honest people I have ever known but I'll be dammed if they aren't among the strangest (by our standards) as well. I realized then why their birth rates are down.

http://www.redditlog.com/snapshots/1423337

Titanstone · 2014-12-28T14:37:59+00:00

The "herbivore" men people love to quote about are really just the dejected men of society. The guys who lost out and have no where else to turn. As someone else mentioned, if you are not a successful guy in Japan, you get nothing from women. absolute 0. Japan is a reserved society, and Japanese people do not often use direct forms of communication. Most relationships in Japan form from social circles or work. There usually has to be some setup because neither party with approach or even ask the other out. The guys who never get chosen because they don't check enough boxes get left in the dust to fend for themselves. They quickly realize that they aren't able to achieve real sex, and begin to throw their sexuality onto whatever comforts their reality resulting in strange fetishes.

Women on the other hand know they have to get married before the wall. There is a term for the wall in Japan known as 負け犬 or "loser dogs". If a single woman can't get married by that time, she is highly unlikely to get married outside of an arranged marriage set up by the parents. Japan has policies that force most women to quit their jobs to look after children. Tax policies, terrible daycare (year long waiting lists), and lack of paternal leave all make having a child a nightmare in Japan. Women who are pushed through the stress of the educational system would rather pursue their careers they've worked hard to achieve than quit. They are perfectly fine working, and spending all their money on traveling. They would rather live and die single than settle on a man who doesn't check boxes.

Having sex is also challenging in Japan. Most people under 30 live their parents. Most women don't until they are married or relocate to some big city after college. Most people in their first 5 years of work can not afford a single apartment in a city, so they live in shared houses or some kind of shared living with private rooms. Most of those types of living quarters have some kind of policy that doesn't allow guests or people to stay over night. Logistics can be incredibly challenging, which is why love hotels are a real business in Japan. Love hotels *can be cheap, but most of the time it will run you 100$ if you're not going on off times.

As for the survey, I'd take it with a grain of salt. Japanese people don't express themselves, especially when it comes to sex. Japan is a society where everything goes to those in the upper half. Everyone else below that line gets nothing, and end up creating a lifetime of hobbies to sooth the pain after being dejected from society.

TL;DR Having children in Japan is extremely difficult, and a pain in the ass. Japanese people are reserved, and probably wouldn't even admit to liking sex in a survey. Herbivore men give up on sex because they lose out in society. Women will not fuck unsuccessful men.

PlusGoody · 2014-12-28T13:32:45+00:00

It's an exaggeration.

Successful Japanese men, virtually without exception, marry and have very traditional marriages; their wives quit work, have 2-3 kids, and stay slim and attractive until middle age.

However, Japanese women are sufficiently disciplined as to prefer being alone to giving the time of day to unsuccessful men. Unsuccessful men can't get sh*t in Japan.

And being successful in Japan isn't easy. You need to have had parents who guided you to do EXACTLY the right thing, be able and willing to follow all social rules exactly, and then have either the mental disclipline over 20-plus years of studying and junior level work to be a successful salaryman, or have the balls, persistence and luck it takes to be a successful enterpreneur.

The entire Japanese "herbivore" version of MGTOW is basically sour grapes; these are dudes whom Japanese society says "no woman for you, loser" and they basically say "okay, I give up."

mykonos_rm · 2014-12-28T20:28:36+00:00

And of course, the western take is that Japan just needs more feminism.

http://www.vox.com/2014/10/9/6946577/japan-fertility-sexism-demographic-babies

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-29/jericho---abenomics/4718156

And their political leadership is now promoting it.

http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2013/09/25/japan-pm-abe-tries-feminist-touch-with-ny-speech/

Incognitro777 · 2014-12-28T08:05:19+00:00

Maybe they figured it out ahead of us and decided MGTOW. They'd rather worry about shit they care about rather than risking pregnancy with sex and getting tied down by child support or pressure from the girl's family to marry. Maybe this is where America is headed, who knows?

lfmb · 2014-12-28T16:28:53+00:00

Here[1] a well known software developer and entrepreneur, american expat, explains how is the work culture and how to do business in japan.

Among other things, you can see how utterly fucked are the lives of men who have to work to support a family. In short, they have to commit their whole living hours to a big company, in exchange of stability and financial security.

http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/

kamenr · 2014-12-28T07:01:46+00:00

I've heard that a lot of it is just media bias and clickbait for westerners like us who see that article and think "Wow, look at those crazy people!" But in reality it's probably not that severe. I think we'd need lots of firsthand accounts from Japanese men to really know what it's like.

MagnanimousGenius · 2014-12-28T07:23:19+00:00

John Calhoun's mice experiments explain this phenomena the best imo. While he see's the behaviours of the mice as a result of overcrowding (to an extent he is right), I see it as the result of a society of excess resources; the females become aggressive, neglect their children, less feminine, while those males who can't carve out a niche as an alpha, withdraw from society and become to scared (read: emasculate) to mate

Have a read, and you'll see many parallels to the phenomena encountered in Japan, among other places.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun#Early_rat_studies

http://www.returnofkings.com/36915/what-humans-can-learn-from-the-mice-utopia-experiment

jagrmeister721 · 2014-12-28T18:12:48+00:00

Here's an article about the Herbivore culture, written by a Japanese author, that casts a different light than the negativity typically directed towards the subculture from the mainstream media:

http://www.goingyourownway.com/content.php?r=118-Grass-Fed-Herbivore-Men

Some interesting insights on why Japanese men are going it on their own and parallels to MGTOW.

fhghg · 2014-12-29T04:29:37+00:00

In Japan they have whore houses where, instead of fucking you, the girls just tell you how great you are. Just let that sink in.

BlueFreedom420 · 2014-12-28T21:40:45+00:00

Castration culture. Hyper civilization ultimately determines that masculinity is a threat. Ironically the same masculinity that created the civilization. If you have read the Hagakure, then you will know that the japanese were alpha as fuck till about 50 years ago.

Aiadon · 2014-12-28T07:48:30+00:00

Have you ever seen an anime from japan? It basically showing examples of extremely omega and stupid behavior by both males and females. They grow up seeing just that and they pick it up. I just remembered a documentary where an English researcher let his kid grow with a chimpanzee as a pet and instead of talking, he began to make monkey sounds. The researcher saw what was happening and interrupted contact between his kid and the chimpanzee in good time and he grew up normally.

JackGetsIt · 2014-12-28T05:55:25+00:00

So this has been talked about quite often on this sub. Here's a comment from user racontemoi a year ago I found interesting:

"I was in Tokyo in February and it amazed me just how herbly the place is. You got the feeling that you could pull just about anything and the guys wouldn't want to fight you.

And it was very safe too. Unlocked bicycles everywhere, people leaving laptops unattended at Starbucks. Japanese people follow the rules.

In WWII there were so many Japanese men killed, most of whom would have been considered alphas, that I think it actually changed the gene pool. Post WWII, they were left with ever more beta males, and rule-following ones at that.

The result has been the perfect storm of female alpha-chasing empowerment, a low population of alpha males, and an emasculated society that follows the blue-pill rules more closely than anybody. In Japan there is as much unsecured hypergamous pussy as there is unsecured property. Unfortunately the men are too bound up in feminist rules to seize what's theirs.

Tl;dr Japanese men follow society's rules. When women set the rules, this is a problem."

It's basically the same thing that's happening in the U.S. but they lost a lot of their alpha's in the war. If you want a academic discussion of the effects of the sexual revolution on all western societies try the pdf on the sidebar titled "Sexual Utopia in Power" It's long but explains exactly what's occurring.

Edit: one more big factor is that developed countries almost universally start losing population over the long run because in non farm cultures having a child becomes a liability instead of a revenue stream. Kids cost money if you live in a city. If your on a farm you can put them to work.

alreadyredschool · 2014-12-28T14:18:57+00:00

https://www.gwern.net/The%20Melancholy%20of%20Subculture%20Society

MaxJukage · 2014-12-29T01:38:02+00:00

Studied Japan a little bit when I was a poli sci major in college. My professor, who I agree with, concluded that the culture in Japan is so obsessed with work and careers that young people don't devote time to building relationships anymore.

monsieurhire2 · 2014-12-29T06:08:45+00:00

Well, it's actually quite simple:

The Allies castrated the Japanese after WWII no more military for them;
The energy of the youth, rather than being projected outward as military force, is channeled inward into various forms of business competition, a sublimated form of warfare;
Japan is an island nation, and so there are lots of natural limits in place;
The population grew after WWII drastically reduced it . . . and is now stagnating due to all social slots being filled to optimum capacity and competition being extremely fierce;
The fierce competition drains a good deal of the men, and many just give up before even trying to win, as they expect that they have no chance; this makes these men de facto unattractive, and they know it, so they don't waste their energy hitting on women;
On top of all this, the men compete against the women in the workforce! Weeeeeee!!! So now, on a small island, with a huge population for its size, with fierce competition inwardly directed, brother against brother, as opposed to outwardly directed, the men now compete with women, who can use their sex to get ahead. Who would an alpha male rather hire? A beta, an omega, or a hot girl? The hot girl, so he can spend less to fuck her.
The "civilizing" of Japan is the modernization / first worldification trend in almost EVERY country, where you can have economic productivity, but low population growth by forcing the population to fight each other over the privilege of being productive, and thus maximize returns for the oligarchs, keeping the population busy and under control, and also have progress. Things are more extreme in Japan because of its small landmass and it having to import to surive, but the same trends are also emerging elsewhere, including the U.S.A, if you go into the urban centers.

RedPillSafe · 2014-12-29T15:03:57+00:00

Japan 145,925 sq mi

California 163,696 sq mi

Japan has 126,434,964 people

California has 38,802,500 people

...I dated a Japanese girl (from a suburb of Tokyo) in California and she liked how unpopulated it can be.

Japan has too many people. As long as they keep immigrants OUT they will be fine with a lower population.

America could EASILY hold a billion people if allowed to have Patriarchy and grow.

Feminism in America for it's "natives" is a sort of useless suicide.

At least the Japanese have a REASON for what they are doing.

2015-01-02T03:33:16+00:00

Their 80-hour work weeks probably took all the manhood out of them.

Distake · 2014-12-28T13:40:31+00:00

My biology teacher told me a reason for that is the emasculation of men by the high consumption of soy, which contains lots of estrogens. Through the consumption throughout the decades the Testosterone production is lowered on the genetical level, which leads to low libido and no "manliness". It's just what I remembered, so it might be wrong, but too much estrogens are really bad for you, since they might lead to fatigue, low libido, ED and loss of muscle mass.

94redstealth · 2014-12-28T16:51:13+00:00

I have nothing to support my claims, my opinion is purely based on my observation and understanding of the culture.

I believe the situation has been created by overly powerful alphas hindering the growth of more alphas. Japanese culture used to largely promote the growth of alphas. Japan wanted as many loyal and strong men as possible. but then the US destroyed Japan and it shook everything up. only a few had any type of means after this and they got greedy. they recreated Japan as a mimick of its former self and oppressed the growth of alphas. their society holds alphas in the highest regards but is designed to hold men in beta status their entire life.

2014-12-29T04:39:34+00:00

Probably because of the countries massive porn addiction. The amount of hentai that comes out of that country is sickening. Ofcourse that's not the only reason but it's a big one.

When I was still a big time porn addict, I had no need to go out and meet chicks, but since I'm on nofap, I have more motivation to do so.

needmorefat · 2014-12-29T22:36:13+00:00

the media is feeding you sensationalist bullshit because it knows you are too lazy to check the sources on the article and you folks are really eating it up right now.

Title	Can someone please provide some explanation or analysis over what the hell is wrong with the men in Japan, and what exactly happened to them?
Author	mykonos_rm
Upvotes	76
Comments	142
Date	December 28, 2014 5:37 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2qlgym/can_someone_please_provide_some_explanation_or/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/can-someone-please-provide-some-explanation-or.27059 https://theredarchive.com/post/27059

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