Feeling disillusioned with Seduction

frogma · 2011-05-18T13:23:19+00:00

So you've met two fantastic girls, out of hundreds, who were warm and open with a stranger. That's a pretty small percentage. Most of us have a similar percentage (when a girl's immediately cool and receptive without you doing any "work").

Like intjpua said, some of us like to have sex. In a single night, the chance that I find a girl who's warm and open in the way you describe is pretty small. Some nights I'll find a girl like that, other nights I won't, and most nights, even if I find a girl like that, I have to do a hell of a lot more to get her in bed with me (otherwise she's probably a slut, which isn't my cup of tea).

As sort of a sidenote to that, some of the best sex and relationships I've had have come with girls who wouldn't fit this description- they weren't exactly warm and open within the first few minutes of meeting them- some weren't like that for several weeks.

Essentially what you're talking about is a pure numbers game. That's just not how I roll. Instead of talking to hundreds of girls, (probably not having sex with many, or any), then finding two great girls (not sure about the sex), I prefer to talk to maybe 10-20 girls in a night, pick the best option, fuck her, then take it further if I want. This is where real "game" comes into play- anybody can play the numbers game, but your "close-percentage" will skyrocket with good inner game and basic knowledge. Then you'll also end up finding that a lot of the less "warm, open" girls are still pretty fantastic, but maybe they require some more effort.

It sounds like you've got pretty solid inner game at least, and if you're satisfied with the results, then that's beautiful. But there's no denying that you learned these things from seduction material, and no denying that you'll continue to use the mindset/techniques taught here. So you can then turn around and give advice, furthering your understanding of "how it all works," and helping others while you're at it.

agroom · 2011-05-18T10:06:35+00:00

I understand where you are coming from. The reason I keep coming here is because so far I have failed to find what you have found. In the 3 months I've been coming here I've approached 100's of women and I've become quite good at cold opening women of all attractiveness levels. Sometimes a woman even shows a high level of interest in me which boosts my ego. But for the most part every woman has fallen into one or both of two categories: Women I wouldn't sleep with and women who wouldn't sleep with me.

The questions we get here are almost always the same:

I've met a girl and she doesn't like me, how can I get her to like me?
I've met a girl and she seems to like me, how can I avoid screwing it up?
I've met a girl and she burned me, what should I do?
I cannot meet women because I am too afraid.

I do my best to nudge guys in the direction that I think is best. Stop focusing on a single girl, treat a girl with respect while showing her you are interested in her, walk away from bad experiences and move on, get out and approach women. Meanwhile I'm making sure that I keep myself out there with my best face forward while waiting for one of the kinds of women you have been lucky enough to meet.

But the guys who post those questions deserve a good answer. So I ignore or confront any horrible misogyny and try and give advice to the guys who need it.

intjpua · 2011-05-18T08:53:05+00:00

For someone just like you, who is basically already socially calibrated, but afraid to approach, your advice may make sense.

Some guys need more guidance than that. Some guys need more guidance to feel like they can begin to approach and get that practice. Some guys need assurance that if they go through the unavoidable pain of making mistakes, embarrassing themselves, failing, being rejected, and overall leaving their comfort zone for extended periods, at some point in the future, they will begin to have real, measurable success with women and they will begin to be able to have sex with some of the women that they currently view as unattainable.

You didn't need that level of guidance, perhaps...though it seems you're looking a gift horse in the mouth here, given that six months ago you were terrified to approach. Now you aren't, and you get more women and higher quality women because of it, presumably thanks to your study of this particular skill and practicing it.

Finally, it isn't your place to tell others what they should want out of their lives, and why they should be learning about seduction. Maybe some guys really do want to have sex with a lot of women. As long as they're careful, don't give anyone any STDs, or get anyone pregnant, there's nothing wrong with that.

In short, while I agree with some of what you've said, I disagree with your tone and approach (whether you intend to come off as critical and superior, that's the vibe I'm getting). Some guys may need to learn the hard way that girls that aren't attracted may never be...and the best option is to go talk to new girls. Some of whom will be more attracted from the get-go. It's an expression of scarcity mentality, which most of us here encourage newbies to get over as quickly as possible. And, of course, sometimes girls do respond to good game, even if they weren't initially attracted.

chalengr · 2011-05-18T15:39:49+00:00

Seduction is merely a set of skills. More specifically, it includes skills like how to dress, how to approach a stranger, how to manage group social dynamics, how to manage your emotions, how to respond to other people's emotions, how to flirt, how to touch a woman, how to kiss, how to plan logistics for dates, and how to have sex.

Yes, improving a skill takes effort. But just because something takes effort doesn't mean it's a lie about who you are. It's actually quite dangerous to justify laziness as "being natural" and "being yourself". No, you just suck and don't want to make the effort to improve. And no, girls won't like you sexually or emotionally, if you're just an asexual but otherwise really interesting guy.

Most seduction skills have nothing to do with your personality. However, some of these skills are purely marketing: they pump up your perceived value higher than your actual value. For example, you might come off more sexual, more dominant, or more popular than you really are. You can avoid these specific skills if you have a moral disagreement with being deceptive. And I agree, deception isn't good for an LTR anyway. However, seduction also teaches you to actually become more sexual/dominant/popular, and there's no deceptiveness in real self-improvement.

rmbarnes · 2011-05-18T17:14:05+00:00

I definitely share your attitude. You and I have similar styles of game. This, in my opinion, is the pinnacle. It requires the least amount of effort for the greatest reward.

Still, we have to start somewhere and I don't think that your average AFC can just do what we do right off the bat. They need structure, and guidance in order to get enough experience to allow them to come to the same conclusion we have.

I personally really enjoy helping guys improve their skills with women. I think it's one of my callings in life. So I will continue to hang out here as long as it's fulfilling me.

blueeyedtongue · 2011-05-18T18:55:04+00:00

First this.

It seems you have conquered the two things that hang up guys in the field: approaching women and qualifying them. Once you have passed those milestones it really is about deciding whether you want to simply focus on a purely physical relationship or emotion. Overall the posts on Seddit are focused on the former and really light on the latter.

Whisper · 2011-05-18T18:00:46+00:00

As I've said before, this stuff isn't complicated, and it isn't really about seduction. It's about detox from feminism.

Think about it. How long would a species survive if the males didn't instinctively know how to attract the females?

The problem ain't that we don't know this shit. The problem is that, raised in the world feminism built, we've been conditioned to avoid doing the right thing (being aggressive, straightforwardly showing interest in sex, sticking up for ourselves, acting dominant over women, attracting by displays of power, status, and value rather than by targeted niceness, etc.).

That's why hitting on women is such a miserable experience until you break out of that frame. Because men are in an impossible bind, left with a choice over shame at being weak or shame at being evil.

Once you undo the feminist programming of "instinctive masculine behaviour is evil and you're a bad person if you do it", then this stuff becomes possible... but it still is hard, and people fill this gap with techniques.

Once you undo the second feminist poison of " "instinctive masculine behaviour is hostile and people will hate you if you do it", then it becomes easy, barely even a skill at all.

Sounds like you've taken that second step, and I congratulate you. Rocks to be you.

But reflect that not everyone had the same upbringing as you. They may have been poisoned more deeply, and the detox process may be longer and more painful.

2011-05-18T19:12:52+00:00

Seddit has helped me learn how to convey my attraction towards a girl and how to read their attraction towards me. That information is invaluable and there is nothing sneaky or shady about it. When I meet girls, it is more than just looks that factor into attractiveness, personality is HUGE. An open friendly girl with a fun personality who is an 8 is far more attractive to me than a boring 10 who is standoffish and is also almost guaranteed to be a dead fish later on. So when I open girls I go with who gives off a good connection right away. I just want to have fun in life, like most I assume, and that is what I've found to be my version of having the best time possible. May not be for others, but is for me.

2011-05-18T22:15:17+00:00

She isn't attracted to you? Why do you give a shit?

You dink. Some men aren't physically attractive, ugly even, and thus will need to build attraction as it will likely never be there from the beginning.

TofuTofu · 2011-05-18T15:02:29+00:00

Cakebread, broseph, just try reframing it. You're out there to maximize your enjoyment and gain a deeper understanding of social dynamics. That's where I'm at, anyway :)

EtovNowd · 2011-05-18T17:18:31+00:00

"why do they want to be with women that need to be seduced?"

Is isn't that women need to be seduced. It's that men need to be taught to be confident, and it is that confidence that then attracts women. We just label it seduction because it's easier to learn a skill, through practice, rather than accept that it's already innate.

If you notice, those individuals that are learning seduction are really timid, shy, geeky, or perhaps males who grew up with single mothers, or older sisters, lack of male support, or not a close relationship with male-role models.

It's not seduction, because we want to sleep with tons of women. It's labeled 'seduction' because I want to have the confidence to approach and get the woman I think/feel I deserve. That's it.

Edgar_Allan_Rich · 2011-05-18T17:23:04+00:00

The hard part is MEETING women. If you've already met them, then you obviously don't need the tactics anymore.

If you haven't already met a bunch of women to choose from, then you may need an angle.

InconspicuousAlt · 2011-05-18T17:48:25+00:00

Lots of people have said lots of helpful stuff, so I have nothing of substance to add. I just wanted to say that when I read your blog URL it looked to me like "You can't love email" and I was confused as hell until I clicked.

revolved · 2011-05-18T17:57:55+00:00

Once Steve P said to me "All these guys these days sport fucking. If you wanna do sport fucking, go do that. Wear a condom." He went on to explain how partnerships with women can be like soul mates, heart chakras connected. Cool guy, Steve.

graffiti81 · 2011-05-18T18:10:04+00:00

Cakebread, if I may, prior to finding pickup and the whole seduction community, how long had you been celibate (or were you young enough where virginity is normal)?

I don't mean to offend, but it sounds like you were somewhat successful and what you learned was just to put yourself out there. I, and I'm sure many others here, am in a position where, sure, I can be social, but being social has never, ever led to success with dating or getting laid. How do you make steps toward a goal when you don't know which direction the goal is in?

s0n0fagun · 2011-05-18T18:19:54+00:00

I think David DeAngelo said once, "I fail 8 out of 10 girls I make a move on." Kudos for you to keep going after the first few.

Marcooo · 2011-05-18T18:37:33+00:00

Thanks, this is just what I needed to read right now.

fragglemook · 2011-05-20T15:48:35+00:00

Well, conversations with women are one thing. PUA stuff is pretty much about having sex with women you rate highly and you have just met and doing it that evening or the next.

It's a game. It's about nailing chicks you have no business nailing. Chicks way out of your league. Riding film stars while you're working in a warehouse. It's about getting using your nature given testosterone as it was intended to be used.

You're making the mistake of rationalising it. It's just a game that feels good.

rmbarnes · 2011-05-18T15:59:50+00:00

You're actually mistaken. You think you're getting all the girls who like you from the start. You're not. You're getting all the girls who were very open to meeting a guy, and into you from the start. Big difference. Many girls won't even make a decision as to whether they like a guy who approaches them. Most of them will just try and blow guys out as a knee jerk reaction.

philosarapter · 2011-05-18T15:22:12+00:00

"Meeting girls" and "Seduction" are two different (but sometimes inclusive) topics. Seduction is the art of getting them into bed with you.

So yeah, meeting girls is a part of seduction and you can meet girls and fire off relationships with them. But thats only the first step if you want this random girl you just met to sleep with you.

Not all of us are looking for relationships.

2011-05-18T20:06:33+00:00

Cakebread, I really enjoyed reading the first 75% of your blog posts. Sounded like you were really pushing yourself to improve your social skills and get better with females. The most recent posts seem to be coming from a really jaded mindset. That along with this post are conveying a real "over it" vibe because you have "been there, and done that."

I don't know you personally, and I am sure you have had experiences with girls that you didn't write about in your blog and reddit posts, but where is your sense of success coming from? Have you been on some great dates? Have you gotten a girlfriend? Have you had sex yet? Maybe you have for all we know, but you haven't really expressed any of that.

From all the stuff I've read, you have just met cool girls and made platonic friendship connections. I can appreciate your desire to have fun and surround yourself with good and friendly people, but like umm....have you improved at all in your love/sex life???

I know you aren't "trying" to get laid, but dude, what are your real goals here? To be 40 years old with a bunch of really cool friendships with women? If you don't have any experience with the physical and sexual side of seduction, how are you going to know what to do when you meet "the one" or even a girl that you are really into? Hope that she puts up with your awkward touching, kissing, and bad sex because of your wonderful personality?

I know you probably dont want to have sex with hundreds of girls or anything crazy like that, but you say you want something different than what the average sedditor wants, so what is it? A fairy tale romance? To not capitalize on your opportunities with girls seems very AFCish/Chodish/whatever you want to call it.

jokoon · 2011-05-18T17:21:13+00:00

Well, the mere fact that people call this "the game" or employs an arsenal of tricks to be "more efficient" is freaking me out too.

You also have to understand we live in a society where we communicate less and less to people around us, and with that we lose the habit of spontenaously talk to people, and we get afraid of doing so.

It's not just the internet and other new technologies; it's the world that is becoming more and more globalized and more homogenous.

Population also has an effect on this; the more people on earth there are, the less human life has value.

You know, finding a soulmate is not the most essential thing too, we just need to have one because we're mammals.

Don't forget that once you will had find someone to stay with even after some period of time you will feel you still need to socialize more than that to feel normal.

What is always terrifying is that you will not be able to know at least 0.1% of the people around you, or at 1km range, while it is something totally possible with the communication technologies we have now, it's just that we still have to evolve for that, and it could take 100 years like it could take 10000 years.

Be grateful for what you've got, but don't forget that human nature is to always aim to get, have, and be better.

2011-05-18T23:35:09+00:00

You sound like me Cakebread,

I too, don't understand HB 9 10 effort,

and mean girls,

I like nice girls.

thefugue · 2011-05-19T02:51:47+00:00

The wise man learns of the Tao, calls it true, then Immediately forgets it.

Title	Feeling disillusioned with Seduction
Author	Cakebread
Upvotes	78
Comments	49
Date	May 18, 2011 8:09 AM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/he26x/feeling_disillusioned_with_seduction/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/feeling-disillusioned-with-seduction.1318400 https://theredarchive.com/post/1318400

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