RPW and TRP: Article favorably compares techniques of abusers with PUA/TRP techniques. What do you think about this?

[–]am_thro_way3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

To be honest, I think all the arguments about morality are missing the point a little. I really think the reason people don't want to hurt their partners emotionally has relatively little to do with morality.

I don't consider myself a particularly moral person, yet I make an effort not to make my boyfriend unhappy. Not because the Bible or some philosopher told me that making people unhappy is bad, but because frankly, he's more fun to be around when he's happy.

Could I utilise coercion, manipulation and intimidation to get him to do more favours for me at the cost of his own happiness? Possibly. Would it actually lead to more relationship satisfaction for me? Unlikely. But if you genuinely don't give a fuck about your partner's feelings, then these tactics are probably pretty effective, I won't dispute that.

[–]soulcakeduck12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Multiple users here predictably fail to comprehend the word "amoral."

http://np.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2h00um/rpw_and_trp_article_favorably_compares_techniques/cko45dq

We don't? But the RP is amoral. That means: It does not discuss on the basis of what is or isn't moral. But people do choose what to accept after discussion.

http://np.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2h00um/rpw_and_trp_article_favorably_compares_techniques/cko35iq

You may have heard this uttered before: TRP is amoral. Just because certain things work, doesn't make them moral or immoral - and even so, TRP isn't concerned with that.

"Amoral" does not mean "we haven't talked about the moral implications yet." Amoral means there are no moral implications to talk about. Abuse tactics like these are immoral. TRP not caring about that is itself immoral, not a magic wand that makes it amoral.

But this has given me a new insight into TRP. These comments seriously think that calling something amoral makes it so, that so long as they don't discuss existing moral implications then they're amoral. So thanks, this was insightful.

[–]hyperrrealLoves fun1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

If you read that link I just said there was a debate here. Not to brigade. We had the article shared on TBP and I wanted to know what people would say about the article at PPD, if they even felt it in fact related to TRP or PUA ("no" being a valid answer). I made the debate so that there could be a debate. Not a brigade. I've explained elsewhere I'm new to reddit and it is damned counter-intuitive to not be allowed to tell people about a debate that is supposed to be between two subreddits. If that's what's up, cool I'll never do that again. Not interested in bridaging.

Also, I didn't say any shit I heard, I just posted the link. I didn't phrase anything to be worse. I asked for a conversation. You don't like my part of the conversation, so you're going apeshit on me all over here, including this post.

I debated my opinion later on for some topics that came up, but this was solely asking for your opinion on the article, if you have anything to say.

If your opinion is you don't want to respond to the article, hurray. Thanks for contributing. There are people who are TRP supporters that managed to be civil in this sub, so I don't think this is anything except you trying to start beef for your own personal gain.

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The post you're replying to was directed at someone else. That comment is already deleted for rule breaking.

There are people who are TRP supporters that managed to be civil in this sub,

I know. Pretty much all of them. Including me. This happened despite the trolling and shit-flinging.

I also did not link for my "personal gain"(this is the internet for god's sake), I linked because found the comment I was responding to ridiculous, and a rule break. And the drop in IQ was so steep elsewhere I thought I was in TBP. So I went and showed why. De-facto I was.

As for the pleading of innocence. Look. There aren't many rules. But all 5 were broken, continuously. By you and your posse. So I don't apologize for linking this. Nobody attacked you for your OP. People post worse OPs. But the probably dozens of comments that have been getting pruned by mods since thread start show you (and TBP) are disingenuous for saying you 'just' posted a question, or that the intent was innocent. Because, when the party started, you had fun... just like everyone else. AFAIK, no RPer engaged in counter-trolling. Or even turned themselves into victims.

The last point is, its not "counter-intuitive". TBP, despite what it seems to you, is a cesspool of stupidity. It exists to circlejerk. Politically correct circlejerk. But circlejerk nonetheless. You have your guys put it politely as "satire" here. But that is what it is. In a vacuum of counteropinion, I'm sure you seem intellectual to yourselves, but you really aren't. Let me illustrate why: one of the universal rules of debate is both parties have to know the other side. TBP can be demonstrably shown to not know the other side. Hence they don't cross over. Because in a fair debate environment they don't manage to make points... Or they attack positions never held. And then they say that the debate sub is biased (or often, that excuse where they were attacked for "being women" or just in general becoming victims of something) when they're not allowed to shit-fling like back like in TBP.

My point is, when a circlejerk sub spills over, its bad. The vast majority of debaters from the PP or BP side are... not from TBP.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Okay it sounded like it was directed at me because of linking something where I've explained I was unclear and unintentionally could have encouraged brigading when I was more hoping people WOULD come to just read or see if maybe TBP had the absolute wrong idea bout what TRP would think about that article. If people wanted to debate, I expected that would be what would happen, and not troll and downvote. I get the point made, but that was the intention, not to encourage people to be assholes.

It's tough because there isn't really a Blue Pill relationship strategy sub, so people that might be interested in reading debates at PPD would be on BP. They should not -troll- outside of TBP. That's what TBP is for, and usually to troll what I gather are more ignorant people who are associating themselves with TRP. When someone is not at TBP it's time to behave like a respectful adult and treat others that way as well.

I did not intend for this to be a joke post and insult people. It went all kinds of wrong and I apologize, I assumed I was getting accused for having the intention of trying to make this a shitty and pointless thread, because of the link.

[–]M_rafayCrimson Red1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (69 children) | Copy Link

How can anyone think that a relationship built out of these abuses is better than one built on trust and love?

We don't? But the RP is amoral. That means: It does not discuss on the basis of what is or isn't moral. But people do choose what to accept after discussion.

Through this, a lot of innovative and IMHO, even better advices have been developed by TRP. BP, in comparison, is close-minded, and ineffective. I would say all of mutually RP relationships are built on trust and love, more than BP ones.

I'm glad to be smart enough to not tolerate TRP bullshit.

Good for you. You are so smart. Was this necessary? Aren't we supposed to be civil?

A woman who stays because you manipulated her? That's what you TRPs want? A woman who stays because she is afraid you might come after her? Or you want to use your own kids, or your wife's compassion as a weapon against her? That's pretty disgusting actually.

I don't even. Especially that third line. You know, why dont you provide evidence for your claims?

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[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (35 children) | Copy Link

claiming sexual strategy is amoral.

Discussion is amoral. Action is moral or immoral.

Apparently it's only amoral when working in your favor. The blue pill is a sub for mocking the red pill. It's not a relationship ideal.

Wrong again. This is actually really old and generally agreed RP. We've even discussed posts praising the benefits of hypergamy and the like, but unlike TBP members, I don't generally save people's posts, the only source I have is my own history.

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2gutp7/hypergamy_in_action_how_do_i_break_up_with_an_old/ckmqzca?context=3

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2cuq29/woman_laments_her_bf_of_4_years_doesnt_seem_to/cjjm8go#cjjm8go

http://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2gwkg9/if_you_were_the_opposite_gender_what_would_your/ckn7q0k

Hell, here's me on abuse.

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[–]MotherofSeaDragons9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

This sounds really pretty and shiny but it's not the official TRP stance. The official stance of RP is that sexual strategy is amoral. It quite literally says nothing about "discussion" being amoral.

From your own sidebar post:

Sexual strategy is amoral. There are those who have sex, and there are those who do not. What contract will you sign up for? The one that results in you having sex? Or the ones that you're told are moral to uphold but do not bring you sex?

So... You have to not do the thing that's moral in order to have sex. It's a backwards way of doing it, but this is directly advocating doing things that immoral.

This is a prime example of why sexual strategy is amoral. Because at the end of the day, their mating strategy is contingent on beta's failures, and our strategy is based on theirs to fail! Therefore there is no common social contract that we can commit to that benefits both genders. Only men are so easily fooled into entering into these social contracts because they work well for society in general, that they forgot to look at the feminine imperative and ask, but how does that benefit me?

Please, show me how you are going to hamster your way around this.

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

This sounds really pretty and shiny but it's not the official TRP stance. The official stance of RP is that sexual strategy is amoral.[1] It quite literally says nothing about "discussion" being amoral.

What do you think discussion is about? I'll give you a hint. Its also on the same side-bar. Right there at the top. Its hard to miss.

Please, show me how you are going to hamster your way around this.

I would but I don't care to talk in a brigaded thread for your monkey court. I wondered what was up with the stupidity, and I found and posted the link below. I also don't buy your disingenuous sincerety in the slightest. Its not even the snipping quotes out of a longer text... I'm used to that... its the way you break rules 1,2,3,4 and I'm sure 5, in concert. And by rule 1, I mean when you use the word hamster in a debate, you concede.

[–][deleted] 11 points11 points11 points 11 years ago | Copy Link

[–]M_rafayCrimson Red-2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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[–]sh1vRed Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

So... You have to not do the thing that's moral in order to have sex. It's a backwards way of doing it, but this is directly advocating doing things that immoral.

Or the ones that you're told are moral to uphold but do not bring you sex?

Emphasis mine. Surely you recognize there's a difference between things that are moral, and things that we're merely told are moral.

Therefore there is no common social contract that we can commit to that benefits both genders. Only men are so easily fooled into entering into these social contracts because they work well for society in general, that they forgot to look at the feminine imperative and ask, but how does that benefit me?

You did not seem to actually address this point. The author's contention is that morality arises from a social contract which benefits all who enter into it. He gives rape as an example of an incontrovertibly immoral deed, because it violates the social contract of "personal freedom", which I take to mean freedom from physical harm or interference. Harm cannot be beneficial by definition, hence it's fairly reasonable to assert the universal benefit of freedom from harm as a social contract.

Modern marriage, as a counter example, is shown to be based on a flawed social contract. In marriage as it exists now, the more affluent individual gives up rights to half their possessions in exchange for... nothing. As the harder working and higher earning gender, men do not benefit from this contract, in fact they lose out. The social contract has become parasitic rather than universally beneficial, therefore invalid, and thus, marriage cannot be said to be morally superior to banging sluts, spinning plates and the like. There is no moral weight either way, the choice is amoral. And here lies the main point of the article, that much of what people tell us is moral or immoral with regard to sex, actually has no moral weight because it serves the interests of women exclusively, or even to the detriment of men. You don't see many men complaining about objectification, or being catcalled or hit on, or about a 20 year old dude who is banging some older cougar. These are activities which, by and large, only women complain about, hence there is no universality of benefit in agreeing not to do them.

Again, none of this means a man can go around shotgunning, robbing and beating people in order to get sex. Those actions violate pre existing social contracts which are universally beneficial, and hence, would be immoral.

This is what the author was actually saying in that article, which you choose to ignore by taking shit out of context and ignoring the points actually being conveyed.

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I came here to this post because I had some small amount of hope that TRPers would denounce this article as being horrific. I really hoped that someone would say that advocating abuse of one's partner, male or female, is obviously wrong. Needless to say, I was disappointed that the indefensible article was defended with the usual rhetoric.

My comment was only to point out that TBP is a satire sub and not a philosophy. The response was (surprise) patronizing and hostile, so I returned the sentiment. But worry not, after seeing that RPers defended this article advocating cruelty to women, I will stick to my satire sub. It's too depressing to read comments defending someone who is an admitted violent misogynist and white supremacist.

(...waits for another hostile and patronizing response to which I won't reply.)

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How can anyone think that a relationship built out of these abuses is better than one built on trust and love?

Because trust is universal and love is temporary. These are just not good foundation for a relationship. They never were a good foundation for a relationship, or we wouldn't need the idea of marriage(a legal or divine contract with punishment for both parties when broken) in the first place.

A woman who stays because you manipulated her? That's what you TRPs want? A woman who stays because she is afraid you might come after her? Or you want to use your own kids, or your wife's compassion as a weapon against her? That's pretty disgusting actually.

An alpha male does not actively go out of his way to "manipulate" his partner. He does not wake up every morning thinking "Hmmm, what manipulative technique should I use today?". He is using these "manipulative" techniques automatically, just by the virtue of being an alpha.

You will just never notice it, because when it happens naturally in real life it's more of a series of small "manipulations" rather than few exaggerated ones, examples of which you usually see on TRP.

And, of course, obligatory nod at how hypocritical you are for calling it "manipulation" when men do it, but treating it as default behaviour when women do it.

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Or after you attract and pursue only one type of person (maybe most people are like that, I've met plenty of crap guys, I eventually met my current bf who is not unhealthy. It's really worth the effort to find healthy people.)

I'm sorry you can't attribute negative qualities across humanity and need to create women as a scapegoat, you're definitely not going to have a healthy relationship now.

I'm not like what you described, but you wouldn't believe me anyways.

It's just a dead end of your own making. You can stay there, that's up to you, but you're not right.

I've dealt with men, and once I learned to spot unhealthy guys (and people) quicker, I stopped having to have that occupy my time. Then I spent more time with healthy people. Men, women, whatever.

Sometimes I just call it a day and watch TED talks, where people are intelligent. That is effing reassuring.

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Uh.....right....ok so.

The particular poster who joined here, that I was talking to, is really an awesome poster who also enjoys the parody that is TBP.

I started this post. I'm the OP. This post wouldn't even exist unless I made it. Yeah, trolling my own post. Right.

The white ponies was a joke in reference to white knights, because a lot of what we do at TBP is make troll jokes and make fun of TRP.

We aren't organizing brigades. You could try getting over yourself. Any second now. Way to stalk my post history.

I was going to add a scene from Xena where she's riding off making the ee ee ee noise to that post you went off to get totally confused by, but maybe that still wouldn't have made it obvious I was making fun of TRP. On the TBP.

Which is what I do a lot of. And you are surprised?....why?....

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I don't believe that is the purpose of feminism, to apologize for abuse at the hands of women. We have barely started to deal with domestic violence in the first place as it was acceptable behavior and has an awesomely violent history in the world. Here's a wall of facts about that.

Abuse is not a solved problem for women and was a ginormous problem for women over the course of human history. Do you think that's not true?...

Abuse is something both humans can do, but culture has definitely supported male abuse of women in the past and that is going to create a different dynamic than if the tables had been reversed over history.

So the point of feminism is not to make men suffer. It's to make sure women are not suffering for being women. I get that TRP thinks feminism is a wackapoo conspiracy, but realistically it's about preventing a culture of mistreating one gender (happened to be females. If it were men we would have masculinism instead and the same idea would apply).

[–]MagicGainbowKeepin' it real, havin' a feel-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

So the point of feminism is not to make men suffer. It's to make sure women are not suffering for being women.

Actions speak louder than words, many modern feminists take the line that ''it's their turn'' so it's justified, I notice you aren't even bothering with the trite ''that's not what feminism means!'' and skip straight to it being about women instead of equality(which is why feminism is obsolete).

And these days women do not suffer for being women, they never did that, domestic violence isn't gendered it's one person abusing another, it's a husband hitting his wife because he's an asshole/has problems etc. it would be bizarre for a man to beat his wife for being a woman ''HOW DARE YO BE MY PREFERRED SEX!''.

Hidstorically women have been protected for being women, while men have not gotten the same privilege.

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It's big of you to admit that your argument regarding weight was flawed. I mean that sincerely.

As for you main point, I see what you're saying, and to an extent I agree. From another post I made in this thread:

The TRP is about sexual strategy - attracting and keeping women so you can get your rocks off. That all makes sense; most people want a partner or partners to have lots of sex with, so you behave in a way that is intended to fulfill those goals. I get all that (when I was single, I did all that).

I, and I think probably most people who are disturbed by TRP's content, don't have a problem with sexual strategy in and of itself. Everyone who likes sex (so almost everybody) employs it to one extent or another. I also recognize that it is men, as a whole, have to work harder to be sexually successful. And as I think people being happy and fulfilled is a good thing, and as many people need sexual relationships to feel happy and fulfilled, I think discussing ways to increase your sexual success is also a good thing, in and of itself.

What I take issue with in regard to the RP, is how harmful a lot (but not all) of the attitudes and behaviour it promotes is. As I've said, sexual strategy in and of itself is amoral. There is nothing wrong with exercising sexual strategy. But that doesn't mean that particular sexual strategies are all amoral. As a comparison, sex is amoral, but sex with a child is wrong. So when an blog post about abuse as effective sexual strategy comes up, and people say "that's fucked up," as they are in this thread, the TRP reply of "you're forgetting sexual strategy is amoral!!!!" is actually completely irrelevant.

So, learning sexual strategy - all the power to you. In fact, in and of itself, I think it's a good thing. But wanting sex doesn't give you free licence to hurt people. And abuse, as is being discussed in this thread, is by definition hurting people.

All of this applies to women as well. And just because there are some shitty women out there doing shitty things, doesn't make a guy any less of a shit for doing the same thing.

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Man doesn't want wife dressing provacatively when she goes out without him, she refuses and purposefully dresses as sexy as possible when she goes out

Not abuse, but certainly a bad move on the woman's part. This is the worst of the three on account of the woman.

Man doesn't want his wife to go to clubs on weekends with her single friends now that she's married, she continues to do so even though it hurts him

Not abuse. It is pretty unreasonable to expect your SO to stop being social with their friends when married. As long as boundaries are discussed when it comes to clubbing, there should be no harm done to either of these two.

Man is very upset his wife is still Facebook friends with three ex boyfriends and a few old FWB from college, he begs her to block them out of respect for his feelings--she refuses

Not abuse. The man has issues here that are not the fault of the woman. She could block them, but it makes sense that she doesn't if her breakups were done in good faith. I know people who still have good contact with their exes, while both sides being in great (new)relationships. The paranoia/insecurity of the man should be dealt with though, either through communication or professional help.

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They are not the same scenarios in reverse. All of them could be part of an abusive relationships, NONE are healthy behaviors. (and number 3 of your first scenario actually says something about the dude and not his wife. I have some exes on fb. Doesn't mean I am going to cheat on my boyfriend with them because that's crazy logic. Also, why does he know who they all are on fb? Buwuh?)

In your second scenario you added kids in 1); Yeah that looks incredibly bad. I think he's abusing his children a little, wtf kind of dad dresses up to go to a bar every single Friday night and ignores his children? Are you serious? Is he a super fancy alcoholic or something? If a woman did this, I would again be like holymotherfuckingshit what is wrong with that mother???

2) is not abuse

3) huge red flag. If you said it was facebook, it would have been the same response as scenario 1. IF you said the woman was going to chippendales instead of having people on her friendlist on fb, it would have been the same response as scenario 2.

These are not the same scenarios. FB was the insecure one in particular.

ALSO when I said "immaturity and inability to communicate in 1 and 2 of scenario one, I was referring to BOTH THE WIFE AND THE MAN.

NONE of the scenarios are "fine" they are all massively fucked up relationships and probably indicate SOME sort of comorbid problem.

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How does this article strike you, and what do you think about domestic abuse?

I think it makes a phenomenal point, that the excuses people use to rationalize why they stay in an "abusive" * relationship are generally terrible, and reflective of stupidity, hypocrisy and a sort of masochism.

^ ironic quotes are here used to indicate that much of what the blue pill world considers abuse, such as parts the economic and emotionals section of the wheel, and the entire privilege / deny sections, are simply men exercising their right to determine their own thoughts and actions. This includes almost all of the actions Heartiste listed as examples of solid game.

I see this post as simply another attempt to smear TRP by linking it something Bad in some convoluted fashion. "This RP guy is admiring the domestic abuse examples! RP guys literally kill their wives!" Anyone who'd despise TRP on the basis of a flimsy appeal to emotion that doesn't actually address any of the RP material being linked to, already hates us as much as possible. Why waste your energy?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I didn't say any of that or imply anything. You apparently believe abuse is not abuse unless you think it is? Which is interesting because:

You have demonstrated a terrible understanding of abuse. Why people stay: the abuser constantly threatens MORE psychological or physical damage/violence if the abused person leaves (a sort of "if you think this is bad, don't push me. I have no limits because I don't give a shit about your well being"). Abusers also isolate their vicitim from friends and family and will tell others things like their mate has a mental illness to discredit them. Abusers go through periods of stopping the abuse and promising to change with elaborate displays, making the abused think somehow they can behave in a way that the abuser will continue to act sweet and loving. The love is yet again a tool to control the person, however. Once the abuser senses they are not controlling their partner, the abuse will ramp up again.

Men and women have the right to determine their own thoughts and actions, correct. Neither has the right to determine their partner's thoughts and actions. Abuse is a sophisticated strategy to attempt to determine another person's thoughts and actions.

If game is men exercising their "right" to determine their love interest's thoughts and actions, yes that would be abuse. The abuse is defined by that behavior specifically.

If it is not that, well fantastic.

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is he implying that women wouldn't mind their (violent) fantasies turning into reality if she is attracted to the assailant?

This is a very tough question. On RP, I would give a yes unhesitatingly but here I'll explain.

Very dangerously, I will say yes.

But like the original RP post he is explaining, a line is clearly drawn. This is a theoretical hypothetical. Assuming you are her high value man is wrong, and dangerous. In RP(explained in the sidebar) the term value and SMV is very subjective. Thus you cannot know.

Basically, the sum of the argument has always been the question: "Does a fantasy speak of a desire ? If yes, why do we ignore the ugly implication in terms of rape?"

For BDSM, we admit we want to submissive, dominant, be punished or punish someone else.

But in reality giving that power without control is scary. So we impose control and carry out the carnal desire.

For a cuckold fantasy, we woud admit we want our SO to be with another man.

But in reality, we maintain trust but act out the fantasy.

In rape fantasy, we call it ravishment. And keep controls.

All the post attempted to say is, figure out what works for your SO, if she has such a kink. Assume she wants to be raped. And figure out carefully, and responsibly, with clear communication, how.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

ESL speaker myself, so I can see where you're coming from. The key is the second half of the first paragraph:

Of course, the same woman wouldn't certainly not want to actually be raped by some hobo during her walk in the park. Probably not even by the guy of her dreams in a non-staged rape situation - I'm positive that once the situation totally gets out of her control (not just hypothetically) and becomes potentially life-threatening, a lot of the allure of the taboo vanishes.

However, the "Lori Maddox"-scenario (where a 14 year old girl who for all intents and purposes was held hostage by a late 20s Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin-fame, still reminisces her experiences 30-40 years later) shows that, given the proper framework, even a situation that would be the horror of any woman can turn into an intensely romantic experience when it perfectly fits your fantasy. But then again, it was also some kind of perfect storm that lead to that outcome: a young, impressionable girl (whoever has seen adolescent girls at a boygroup gig knows how they can be like) who meets the guy of her dreams (supremely high SMV in her eyes) and is personally cut out for that experience (she was excited to go along with it, which is not something every girl in her position would have been).

To get back to your question:

is he implying that women wouldn't mind their (violent) fantasies turning into reality if she is attracted to the assailant?

For that, mere attraction wouldn't be enough (it should be pretty much the man of her dreams), and it would depend on her personality. Two women can have exactly the same fantasy yet react totally different when it becomes reality. The key to this is that it is her fantasy, which she can embellish as much as she wants, but ultimately she is in charge. Turn it into reality, totally remove her freedom to act independently and introduce the element of an actual threat to her health or life, and even if it fits her fantasy to a T it is very likely that the experience still freaks her out.

That's also the reason why people with the propensity for these kinks engage in BDSM - I've heard more often than not that "it is the sub who holds the true power in that relationship, because (s)he allows what happens".

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Granted, but that's irrelevant to the question of what is attractive to women.

There are literally dozens of studies on dark triad traits. All of them conclusively point to DTs being more attractive to women in behaviour, speech and even tone of voice. DTs nearly always lie on the higher ends of partner count spectrums. DT attributes sell books, erotica, and porn. DT traits(which aren't all negative) are used to create all those generic movie heroes and leads.

Ruggedness and even scariness is found in every erotica written for women that is successful.

Hell, during 2012 and 2013 alone, monster porn made a surge of millions of dollars for home erotica writers. http://www.businessinsider.com/monster-porn-amazon-crackdown-sex-fantasy-bigfoot-2013-12

It went so far that the UK featured protests until online book stores started pulling collections of monster porn.

I don't have the time or I'd flood you with evidence. DT and abuse, and rape and incest and whatever... women like it. A lot. More than anything you'd expect like vanilla. And its not bad. Everybody likes soemthing bad in porn. What I don't get is how far feminists go to condemn people's tastes in erotica for god's sakes.

The only other parallel is asking kids to give up violent video games. So what if it was an abusive relationship.

Grey is a textbook dark triad motherfucker. the kind of personal type thats four times more likely to be a CEO than non-DT. The type that's likely to be rich, successful, famous or powerful. Its not just biotroofs. Its market patterns.

Grey is hot. And he's just the star of one book. The erotica ametuer and paid industry(as well as porn. like video, audio, etc) all demonstrate that his type of guy makes panties wet.

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[–]M_rafayCrimson Red0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

You are make a false equivalency with sexual fantasies and video games. But if a child is having fantasies about pokemon, I assume they have a desire to associate with these magical animals and control and train them while travelling and stuff. (The desire may be less literal, but something within this metaphor is definitely wanted by the kid. maybe adventure, who knows).

A fantasy does speak of an innate desire. I assume you agree.

Women don't enjoy being raped. But women do engage in bondage/rape-play/all manner of rough treatment/dirtytalk/male aggressiveness/submissivenss/etc/etc/etc all the time. A safe way of playing out a desire. Just like any other inherently risky fantasy(BDSM, cuckqueen, cuckold, etc) where the fear of losing control causes you to take precautions.

Women also do not desire being raped by just anyone. It has to be the exact supremely ideal person in ideal land as the fantasy. Assuming you are her high SMV man is dangerous. Whcih is explicitly pointed out by everyone who's actually read the thread with their sjw glasses off.

women want to be raped. by a high smv man(read definition of smv or value on sidebar).

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[–]M_rafayCrimson Red0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The only thing wrong with the post that started it all was he used the word rape to describe pretty consensual forced sex(ravishment) from a fantasy. Women want to be raped. Its an oxymoron, basically. But they do want on some level what was in the fantasy.

But you're right, I mistakenly said rape as in both non-consensual forced sex and the other thing. cést la vie.

But you've gotta admit, rape and all manner and flavours of abusiveness (and porn is known for its variety) are attractive to women. There has never been a study conducted on Dark Triad traits that did not show DTs are not more attractive to women. No amount of protests will change that. Even the act of forced penetration finds its way to 60%ish women's fantasies. And those are the ones just willing to admit it. We know for a fact that women tend to lie on any question in surveys that isn't self-flattering to think about at a rate upto twice as much as men. So that figure may even be higher, depending on if you think having a rape fantasy is not self-flattering.

I think considering how so many feminists condemn that sort of erotica and have double think about being feminists and enjoying that kink, I'd say they're reportign it down.

Women want to be raped by their high smv man. High smv man being the guy from fantasy. Rape meaning consensual forced sex. Happy?

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There was a LOT of hype. This is only happening from the hype right now. I think I maybe heard one person mention they read it that I know (maybe one?). Otherwise I don't know anyone who talked about it or read it. I might have had a conversation about the hype around it once as well, but that's it.

I'm sure that's true for a lot of people. Even now, we're not discussing the book so much as the hype (aka the only reason most of us are even aware of it).

I mean, for example, I just did a google search of The Grapes of Wrath and I found WAY more articles written about 50 Shades of Gray when I did that google search.

Probably most of us have read the Grapes of Wrath (usually is enforced curriculum) so it is technically a MUCH more popular book, but the Internet is full of of 50 Shades of Gray articles.

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I don't know any women who read it at all. I mean, I just think we are all sexually repressed anyways. Women are supposed to be embarrassed or ashamed if anyone ever sees a nipple but a bikini is totally fine. As long as you cover that nipple, your life is not over.

I think you're stuck investigating the cluster fuck that is sexual shame in our culture (which totally affects men) and that conversation pretty much never happens, so it's a BIG one.

BTW group of women talking to author http://assets.nybooks.com/media/img/blogimages/FiftyShadesFans_jpg_600x426_q85.jpg

White. Those women are at least 35+. And sooooo white.

Plus the author is a really overweight middle aged white lady from england. I mean, that apparently is her wish. Which is something I totally did not want to know and makes me feel funny when I see her photo. TIL also that she called the trilogy "my midlife crisis, writ large. All my fantasies in there, and that's it."

If your love interest is a white woman who was born in 1963 and is going through a midlife crisis, yeah you may have some profound insights into her sexuality after reading 50 Shades of Grey.

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I think youve made some erroneous assumptions about trp. Also, advice on overcoming lmr has been around at least a decade before trp. Its one of the earliest pua concepts and is totally valid irl. This is only controversial recently due to the excessive politicizing of consent. You've also most likely read some outrageous misrepresentation of the lmr concept. Almost all of the time the solution is not to ignore lmr, its to de escalate somewhat (not completely) and try some approach to persuade. Lmr is heavily tied into another pua concept known as asd (anti slut defense), which is that women will not do anything that makes them feel like a slut. Many of them will do extremely slutty things, so long as you can pacify their asd so that it doesn't feel slutty in that moment. In other words, overcoming lmr usually amounts to getting their hamster spinning in your favor.

Lets face it, if the girl is alone in a bedroom making out with you and her clothes are half off, she knows exactly what shes doing, there are just various points in escalation where she will start to feel slutty and need to be re assured. Taking off the bra is the most common one in my experience. So common that i straight up stopped taking them off the first time around and experienced not only a straight up drop in lmr, but also easier lmr challenges.

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Work to do what? What would be the goal of these tactics? Even when you leave morality out of the discussion, why the hell would you do this?

The TRP is about sexual strategy - attracting and keeping women so you can get your rocks off. That all makes sense; most people want a partner or partners to have lots of sex with, so you behave in a way that is intended to fulfill those goals. I get all that (when I was single, I did all that). But who the hell wants a partner who is a nervous wreck? Ya, sure, you've cowed her into sticking around, but she's no longer what you want (Terpers must want more than just a hole to stick it in, or you'd all just hire hookers or buy fleshlights). So unless you're all sadists who get off on others' pain and actually desire women who are freaking messes, you're winning the battle but losing the war.

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[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

Okay, that's your opinion. It's satire and you're not abusers.

I still wouldn't say something like breaking my SO legs is pure morality, that's not quite accurate. Quality of life would be decreased.

I see TRP as harmful to the guy and his ~~victim~~ or plate or SO. Abusers have deep psychological problems and often escalate to violence. Getting out of an abusive relationship is ultimately important because you might be murdered.

If you're sharing the same strategies as an abuser, it leads you to wonder what is happening with your psychology that you want to do the same thing as abusers.

If you think it was a parody, you can disregard all of that. Do you see abuse as wrong because of morality? That's where you would go to those others subs to discuss that in particular. If you're not interested in that, no problem.

[–]T-rexTeaRed Pill Man-2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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