"OK, here's MY definition of paternity fraud ... men who dodge fatherhood for so long, they effectively defraud entire generations of their female counterparts of their right to reproduce."

Always_Doubtful · 2012-12-27T18:06:45+00:00

So its paternity fraud for men to decide not to have sex how shocking.

ekjohnson9 · 2012-12-27T17:47:42+00:00

"What do you mean you want me to have an abortion, you don't have the right to control my body!!"

Later on...

"What do you mean you got a vasectomy?! I want children and you're defrauding me of my right to have them!!"

Unfortunately this seems to be a growing trend among the feminist movement today, they see a men's rights issue, then completely twist it around to make it seem as though women are the real victims. How many times have we been told "what you think is misandry, is actually misogyny"?

AnnArchist · 2012-12-27T17:37:53+00:00

Go figure a feminist tries to control the language.... and then compares unrelated items to make men look bad...what the stupid?

Belgian_Rofl · 2012-12-27T20:53:44+00:00

Here's the article so that she gets less page views:

If there is one black and white area left in the gender arena, where men could feel indisputably in the right, perhaps "paternity fraud" - the pretence that a man has fathered your child - is it.

Last week, the first-ever case of "paternity fraud" hit the appeal court. Mark Webb was "duped" for 17 years by his former wife Lydia Chapman into believing that Elspeth Chapman, now 22, was his biological daughter. A DNA test four years ago confirmed that another man was the father; at which point, according to what Elspeth told a newspaper, Webb "disowned" her.

While Webb was denied the opportunity to take his complaint to the House of Lords, barrister Nicholas Mostyn mused that the case had raised "profound questions" about a "spouse's duty of candour". Mr Mostyn was absolutely right. Just so long as this "duty" and "candour" business cuts both ways.

First things first. No one is underestimating Webb's agony. What Lydia Chapman did was deplorable. Not least because every trouble-making, disgruntled ex-spouse in the nation will now feel justified in plucking out his progeny's hair or scraping a Q-Tip over their gums, and posting it to DNA-U-Like. Which, considering that quite a few males think nothing of spraying their seed around as indiscriminately as crop fertiliser, strikes one as a tad rich.

Moreover, however much one feels sympathy for Webb (and personally, I'd feel even more if it transpired he hadn't "disowned" the innocent child in this matter), this idea of "fraud" being employed in this context is somewhat muddied by the fact that many women have their own stories to tell. Indeed, if we are all to accept the idea of "paternity fraud" as the ultimate female betrayal, shouldn't we also agree that there are men out there who are no slouches when it comes to "frauds" of the uniquely masculine kind?

If it's procreative "bloke-fraud" you want, I'll give you it. How about those men who dodge fatherhood for so long, they effectively "defraud" entire generations of their female counterparts of their right to reproduce without having to resort to painful and expensive IVF? How about when men fob off women they're with for years with adamant declarations that they "never want children" and then - whoops! - get the next woman pregnant? What "duty of candour" has been achieved here?

Elsewhere, programmes such as The Jeremy Kyle Show and The Maury Povich Show are rammed with men forced to take DNA tests by women mocked for their inarticulate hysterics, when effectively they have been sent mad with grief by months, even years, of their child being denied.

Then there are the stories of fathers taking pride in hiding their assets when the Child Support Agency came knocking. Or other fathers, who enjoyed the babies arriving, proving something about their virility, but found the business of actual fathering too difficult. And the list sprawls on.

Indeed, ultimately I would bet there are (far) fewer women pretending children are their partner's than there are actually "real" (biological) fathers who behave as if they have no responsibility to their child at all. But when do deserted, reluctant single mothers get to stand up in court and talk about how they feel "defrauded"? And maybe this is what happens when the legal system tries to navigate areas such as "paternity fraud". Suddenly you find yourself in a swamp full of waving female hands, shouting: "Hey, me too!"

With this in mind, one has to wonder what Mr Webb was hoping to achieve with this attempt to take his appeal to the highest level - more rumination on duty and candour, more "profound questions"? If so, bring it on. It may be just what the courts need - the law taking more heed of any hurt and emotions involved. Just so long as it is acknowledged that for every man devastated at being duped into believing a child is his, there may be women who have been wronged ("defrauded") by a man in ways much less legal, or provable, but perhaps no less painful.

Edited to get rid of the rest of the drivel included in the article.

OuiCrudites · 2012-12-27T18:25:46+00:00

Those horrible men, wanting to maintain agency over their own sperm and penis! Fuck those assholes!!!!

DavidByron · 2012-12-27T19:26:04+00:00

"His body, her choice" again.

Kozbot · 2012-12-27T19:15:08+00:00

yes I am obligated to knock women up...because.....profit?

Coinin · 2012-12-27T19:06:06+00:00

The privilege is strong in this one.

"I have a right to your sperm and your reproductive decisions are irrelevant and based on selfishness"

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2012-12-27T20:54:06+00:00

While Webb was denied the opportunity to take his complaint to the House of Lords, barrister Nicholas Mostyn mused that the case had raised "profound questions" about a "spouse's duty of candour". Mr Mostyn was absolutely right. Just so long as this "duty" and "candour" business cuts both ways.

Sure, the man must promise the woman that the child growing in her womb is hers. And if he somehow snuck another woman's child in there he should be held legally liable.

This isn't much of a problem IRL due to logistics but in theory that seems fine.

First things first. No one is underestimating Webb's agony. What Lydia Chapman did was deplorable. Not least because every trouble-making, disgruntled ex-spouse in the nation will now feel justified in plucking out his progeny's hair or scraping a Q-Tip over their gums, and posting it to DNA-U-Like.

Yeah no one is discounting his agony . . . and besides the real problem here is that this might inconvenience other women whose husbands think they now have a right to be secure in their paternity.

Which, considering that quite a few males think nothing of spraying their seed around as indiscriminately as crop fertiliser, strikes one as a tad rich.

Yes because the ultimate decision to have a child is the man's, has total say in the matter.

How about those men who dodge fatherhood for so long, they effectively "defraud" entire generations of their female counterparts of their right to reproduce without having to resort to painful and expensive IVF?

One is talking about trapping men in to financial obligations that aren't theirs.

The other assumes that men have an obligation to . . . provide financial and sexual services to women as they deem fit, not as the man deems fit.

Reproductive freedom for men according to this author: men may reproduce when a woman chooses and must reproduce when told to do so.

How about when men fob off women they're with for years with adamant declarations that they "never want children" and then - whoops! - get the next woman pregnant? What "duty of candour" has been achieved here?

A) this goes both ways B) people change their minds and C) it's entirely possible they do want kids . . . just not with that particular woman. Not every guy this author has dated she deemed worthy of fatherhood I would guess.

But when do deserted, reluctant single mothers get to stand up in court and talk about how they feel "defrauded"?

All the time. It's called child support. That's a legal issue where the court can force men to compensate women for having children.

And maybe this is what happens when the legal system tries to navigate areas such as "paternity fraud". Suddenly you find yourself in a swamp full of waving female hands, shouting: "Hey, me too!"

More like "hey it's been me all along . . . but I don't want the table's turned".

buster2209 · 2012-12-27T19:23:56+00:00

"shouldn't we also agree that there are men out there who are no slouches when it comes to "frauds" of the uniquely masculine kind?"

And how many women are on the hook for 18 years of child support because of men's fraud?

I swear, it's shit like this that pisses me off. A legitimate problem that males face in the world is somehow twisted into females actually being the victim. Un-fucking-believable

iheartbakon · 2012-12-27T18:36:40+00:00

Men don't owe you sperm.

Jazzeki · 2012-12-27T20:01:55+00:00

so what is it when "women dodge sex with undesirable men for so long that they defraud entire generations of their male counterparts of the right to sex? rape?"

women get to say "baby now!" the day i get to say "sex now!"

actually no. women get to say "baby now!" the day i get to tell THEM "baby now!"

DarthOvious · 2012-12-27T21:15:24+00:00

Another idiot who thinks that having children is some sort of right. Apparently women who can't have children are being oppressed by nature.

2012-12-27T17:58:57+00:00

I have to go throw up.

girlwriteswhat · 2012-12-27T21:31:26+00:00

"...what the courts need - the law taking more heed of any hurt and emotions involved."

Isn't this what these folks have been saying all along? Their emotions trump our facts?

2012-12-27T18:26:13+00:00

That's got to be one of the funniest things I've ever heard.

She tried so hard to dodge the issue. After a two sentence sympathy token she went on to blame men for:

A. not impregnating women when they want us to??? B. not paying child support

Like most women she seems to think that by crying and pretending that she's the real victim that this somehow absolves courts of the duty to make paternity fraud a punishable crime. What a fuckin idiot.

MartialWay · 2012-12-27T22:58:35+00:00

How about those men who dodge fatherhood for so long, they effectively "defraud" entire generations of their female counterparts of their right to reproduce...

What "right to reproduce" is she talking about? Gene studies have shown that most men have not reproduced (historically, 80% of women have reproduced versus 40% of men). How much of right is it if so many people don't have it?

Also, women are the one's with reproductive freedom in this society, so they're free to have children from any sexual encounter (and much more freedom to have that sex too). I think she is conflating "provisioning" and indentured servitude with reproduction. She could grab any homeless guy she wanted at any time and bear him a child. If she wants more than she's worth in the Sexual Marketplace, that's her problem. Another victim of the bane of western society - Self Esteem Issues...she has way more self esteem than is warranted under the circumstances, and is lashing out at men because she isn't getting her way.

dungone · 2012-12-27T21:53:14+00:00

If there is one black and white area left in the gender arena, where men could feel indisputably in the right, perhaps "paternity fraud"... is it... Last week, the first-ever case of "paternity fraud" hit the appeal court. "

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I get it. The bigot is trying to be "funny."

Silly rabbit, being "indisputably in the right" is for feminists, lol. Her "feminism" amounts to a petulant five-year-old going, "but he started it!"

MartialWay · 2012-12-27T23:03:12+00:00

How about when men fob off women they're with for years with adamant declarations that they "never want children" and then - whoops! - get the next woman pregnant?

When are these people going to realize that "No means No!". They aren't entitled to any man's offspring, and a man can change his mind anytime he wants...the same as a woman in her bedroom.

CosmicKeys · 2012-12-27T23:04:25+00:00

An interesting read, but this article is almost 4 years old.

ThePigman · 2012-12-27T23:06:43+00:00

Barbara Ellen is not worth reading.

Xenoith · 2012-12-28T01:51:29+00:00

SRS often whines about MRA pulling the "How can I make this about the menz? shit. Yet.. there are tons of feminists who see MRA issues and immediately try to do the exact same thing.

Aaod · 2012-12-27T23:14:53+00:00

Which, considering that quite a few males think nothing of spraying their seed around as indiscriminately as crop fertiliser, strikes one as a tad rich.

hahahhahahah wake up lady women sleep around just as much as guys do. The only difference is those ladies all want to sleep with the same type of guy.

sowhatisit · 2012-12-28T01:30:43+00:00

The sense of entitlement is almost absurd. When its convenient to not want sex, how dare you. (Correctly so.) When its convenient that they've gone throw their share of 'assholes', and 'newly desirable' guys aren't willing to commit, how dare you.

I put the term 'asshole' in quotes, as women are grown-ups (equal to men, right?). They WANT to and are CHOOSING to be with these 'assholes'.)

BuddhaB · 2012-12-28T01:43:57+00:00

Here is a little from my own personal situation.

Met a woman through sport. she had two children and couldn't have any more. but we got on really well. Loved the children as my own for six years. any being with her i had given up a chance of having my own children.

6 years later she dumps my shit on the back porch and gives me the whole talk of "As a woman i need to do things for my self." speech

Ok so accept her children and giving up on the chance of my own, and supporting her in her endeavours Im still a sexist pig that was deigning her the things that she can achieve.

The only reason I am writing this in the thread is I know that she would read the above article and agreed with it.

2012-12-27T19:33:16+00:00

That newspaper is filth. The female journalists insane man haters. I can't imagine what sort of twisted bigoted fools read that shit and believe it.

2012-12-28T05:02:10+00:00

This is feminism.

2012-12-28T06:29:40+00:00

Ugh it's a hideous article that basically says, "No matter what happens to men, it's worse for women." I mean after all...

Which, considering that quite a few males think nothing of spraying their seed around as indiscriminately as crop fertiliser, strikes one as a tad rich.

Because we're all the same, right? It's not as if some women like to get pregnant, no matter to whom, and pop out a dozen babies. Oh wait ...

However I'm not sure the title of this post really explains what she is saying, though it's hard to be clear. The context right after her statement was this:

How about when men fob off women they're with for years with adamant declarations that they "never want children" and then - whoops! - get the next woman pregnant? What "duty of candour" has been achieved here?

Which is almost valid. Women have a set time to reproduce and some guys ignore that, constantly promising to have children at a later stage, and putting it off, right up until it's time and the relationship has to end. That is bullshit.

But hardly something you could say of any or even many men.

ExpendableOne · 2012-12-28T14:16:05+00:00

Sad thing is that the women in the situations that she's describing chose to have children with those men(who didn't want to have children from the get go). She chose to go through with that decision knowing ahead of time that those men didn't want to be fathers and/or couldn't afford to be either. She took that decision away from them and now feels entitled to not only impose her choice on those men but actually shame them for failing to live up to her shameful entitlements. Those men may have been going around having a lot of unprotected sex but those women still also have a responsibility to stop that pregnancy too. A woman that accepts to have unprotected sex is just as responsible for the act as the man who chose to have sex with her, if not even more so as she would know exactly what kind of contraceptives she's on.

And how exactly does a man seeking to break free from the expectations or the role that he never wanted to take on in the first place prevent those women from reproducing, or having the "right to reproduce"? It seems like her entire qualm her is that she hates the fact that she has to face a fraction of the hardships that your average man has to face when it comes to sex and relationships. How is that not a ridiculous and offensive sense of entitlement/privilege?

AnthonyZarat · 2012-12-27T17:43:41+00:00

[permanently deleted]

MartialWay · 2012-12-27T23:09:50+00:00

And then she accuses David Simon (Creator of The Wire) of being a pompous "middle class" ass.

In addition to all the other things wrong with her critique, once you become a brillliant and acclaimed artist with millions of dollars and fans, you kind of stop being "middle class".

DerpaNerb · 2012-12-28T01:52:47+00:00

Well I do agree that the father "disowning" her (assuming that's what he did)... was incredibly heartless. This person treated you like their father for over 2 decades... you have to be kind of a dick to walk away from that... biological or not. I would however get a divorce immediately.

nmatrix9 · 2012-12-28T06:08:25+00:00

I had to read this article very, very slowly, I was waiting for the punchline but I didn't see it. Then I looked at the url and realized this was not The Onion satire.

calle30 · 2012-12-28T14:05:39+00:00

Aha. Its not rape, its my right to reproduce !

WTF is this shit ?

DougDante · 2012-12-28T14:35:40+00:00

This is obviously a personal issue for this reporter.

I'd just like to add it cuts both ways. That is, if a person gives their partner the false impression they are capable of having children and trying it's a form of dishonesty, whether they are a man or a woman.

6inchpianist · 2012-12-27T22:27:43+00:00

Looks like someone's on the rag.

2012-12-28T03:25:08+00:00

I hate to fan pointless fires, but the poor author sounds a bit like she's gone through a bit of pain, or at least heard some really sad stories and felt it emphatically.

I don't accept that any human male or female has the "right to reproduce" in so far as each human deserves a mate. I think the right would be better phrased in another way, that the government has no right to prevent one from reproducing if they so choose and even then, China would disagree.

Still, I feel for people who want to have children but cannot find mates, my hunch is that both sexes suffer equally from that predicament.

2012-12-28T05:43:56+00:00

HOW CAN I MAKE THIS ABOUT ME

Title	"OK, here's MY definition of paternity fraud ... men who dodge fatherhood for so long, they effectively defraud entire generations of their female counterparts of their right to reproduce."
Author	AnthonyZarat
Upvotes	110
Comments	100
Date	December 27, 2012 5:34 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/15iyt2/ok_heres_my_definition_of_paternity_fraud_men_who/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/ok-heres-my-definition-of-paternity-fraud-men-who.1005655 https://theredarchive.com/post/1005655

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