Why Modern Men Are Angry at Women in the Dating World

alarumba · 2010-10-04T20:26:43+00:00

Shock & Denial : "I don't get it. My mother and sisters encouraged me to be chivalrous and treat women well. Yet when I do that I get taken advantage of and the jerks get sex constantly. Maybe if I'm just more generous and sensitive it will change."
Pain & Guilt : "Life really sucks. My sexual desires are constantly shamed, I'm called a rapist even though I've never lifted a finger against a woman, and women seem to use sex like a bludgeon the way christians do the bible."
Anger & Bargaining : "Fuck. Fuck! Well, perhaps I can find one decent woman and marry her. Maybe if I treat her really well, tend to all her needs, and really listen to her... perhaps there is a chance my needs won't be ignored."
Depression : "Nope. That just made things worse and now I'm divorced. I think I'm going to avoid women entirely for a while, at least until I look more like the guy from Mad Men which is what women expect."
The upward turn : "You know... maybe I was being a pushover before. I should really be able to stand on my own two feet and not need women for happiness. I'll have a fling or two but definitely stay single."
Reconstruction and working through : "Well I've been mostly avoiding women for a couple years now and my life has certainly improved. I'm not going to get suckered by the chivalrous white-knight trap again."
Acceptance & Hope : "Oh I get it now. It is all a big competitive game. Guess I'll start manipulating women right back. They do it to get what they want. I should grow a spine and do that too."

Women: "Where are all the nice guys? We are ready to settle down but we only find manipulative jerks and men who have emotional needs! A man with emotional needs is not attractive! Why are men scared to commit to marriage? Where is the prince I was promised!"

Kuonji · 2010-10-04T19:33:04+00:00

Incredible article.

What, after all, is the average guy to conclude when, after listening to a female acquaintance’s oft-heard lamentation that “all she wants is some one who is nice and will treat her well”, she promptly lifts her skirt for the first drunk, unemployed bad boy she runs across within hours of their first meeting. Not only is her behavior creating a negative disincentive for courtly pursuit and a positive incentive for ruthless predation, it’s also teaching him that there is no reason to place any value on her words.

NotSoNoveltyAccount · 2010-10-05T04:54:52+00:00

This makes so much sense. Dating is really an unknown at this point. The social norms on how a date should go, how you approach someone you are interested in, etc. is all thrown out the window.

I have never been able to be truly honest around women whom I am attracted to because I don't know how I am expected to act, so I put up whatever face I can come up with.

discdigger · 2010-10-05T12:30:44+00:00

Good article. I had a lot of these same feelings while I was still on the dating scene as well. And the most interesting line to me was:

Today, though, there is no standard scenario for meeting and mating, or even relating. For one thing, men face a situation—and I’m not exaggerating here—new to human history. Never before have men wooed women who are, at least theoretically, their equals—socially, professionally, and sexually.

But it does make a few generalizations that I take issue with.

1st, it seems to assume that all men always know exactly what they want in a women (a hook-up). Many young men ALSO don't know if they want sex, marriage material, a slump-buster, or just someone to hang out with.

2nd, it implies that all dating/matchmaking is done via the bar scene (with one exception being the blind-date anecdote). If you want to find a worthy partner, bars are really one of the WORST places to go. You should meet people who share your worldviews FIRST, and have the right naughty-bits second. Classes, groups, rallies, and that sort of thing.

3rd, It really seems to downplay the way women end up like this. I know, it isn't the point of the article, but it seems a bit unfair NOT to describe the battery of mixed signals today's young girls are bombarded with. Yes, a lot of them are taught that they are equal to men, but pop culture, Taylor Swift, and Disney Princess send exactly the opposite message, often a lot louder.

Dekolta · 2010-10-05T08:13:20+00:00

I have always believed that do to dating men and women will never be equal.

It is always the man who is supposed to make the first move. I have had many girls tell me this too, which kinda depresses me. I was raised in a very feminist environment. Mom is quite feminist and I have two aunts who are lesbian so I was influenced like crazy that women should be equal. I think it harmed me more than helped me, because I think hmm since we are equal shouldn't they be able to ask us out on dates too?

Men are traditionally supposed to make the first move. Right there that gives us a tremendous amount of power. So if a girl isn't supposed to make the first move how does she get us to do it? Basically manipulation. Make us want to choose her, to ask her out. So right in that little social norm we have the power structure where guys are the ones who have the power of even getting the opportunity of a date going. Sure women can say yes or no to you but really that is just a reaction to what the guy wants. Even with Marriage when do you see the girl propose to the guy? I hate hearing women complain that their man hasn't proposed to them yet. Women are just as able to pop the question as well. I don't understand why girls are being raised to be equal to men but being taught traditional dating etiquette.

SarahC · 2010-10-05T05:52:20+00:00

I hate the change of attitude some women have depending on how much they consider you're worth.

The less cynical part of me says "It just demonstrates to them that you're skilled, and self sufficient, and can find you're own way in the world. You're not a mummies boy."

The cynical side of me says "Gold digger."

Which is it? You just can't tell!

jadadad · 2010-10-05T14:38:44+00:00

I just want to say that I really feel for all the single guys out there in the dating scene. I got married a couple of years ago and as a result had forgotten just how bad it is out there, this article brought back some bad memories.

One word of advice. There are decent women out there. You might have to put forth a lot of effort to find them but they do exist. Don't give up, keep looking, eventually you will find someone who is worth your time and attention.

mdoddr · 2010-10-05T10:07:13+00:00

Says Deborah in comments: "I wrote an article that discusses why women like bad boys and players just the other day. Men complain that women don’t know what they want. Women DO know what they want, they just don’t want the guy that is complaining! And men are angry because in spite of their protestations to the contrary, men need women far more than women need men. After all, women have the sex that men dream about. Instead of complaining about women’s desires, young men would do better to do as Jeff suggested and spend time talking to a woman about what SHE likes, then give it to her as much as is reasonable. Don’t be a wimp or anything, but if she likes calls, call her. If she likes texts, text her. If she likes dancing, go dancing with her. Stop thinking things should be the way you want them which is unfortunately the way marriage and society in the U.S. has been for the past 200 plus years. Women don’t want to be tied to those old ideas. The way to adjust is to TALK to women and ask questions, not be angry at because we aren’t what you want us to be."

My response: "Deborah, why don’t women spend the time to talk to men about what we like and give it to us as much as it is reasonable. Men don’t want women who expect men to cater to their every change of mind and be expected to hold the door open one second and then let her be independent and let her open her own door the next and get yelled at or rejected for not knowing what they want at any given moment. The way to adjust is to TALK to men and ask questions, not be angry at us because we aren’t what you want us to be."

jimmyjango42 · 2010-10-05T02:12:53+00:00

We only have authority to blame for this. Not just women, but women AND men of today's age who still refuse to get rid of their old ways.

This is why I believe political correctness needs to die. Being politically correct only means you're going to look like you're meeting standards of what society "wants" and "accepts" you as, and continues the vicious cycle of everyone not just women, having trouble finding themselves, if at all.

In order for that to happen, people need to question things more. If it isn't a lack of religion that enables people to question authority, what is?

2010-10-05T05:48:22+00:00

Great post

PublicStranger · 2010-10-05T02:23:26+00:00

I don't think this is actually a modern phenomenon. In nearly every animal species in existence, females have the greater burden in reproduction and consequently can afford to be finicky. In the few examples where males are just as choosy, males and females are monogamous and contribute nearly equally to reproduction.

This disconnect between men and women is an unfortunate side effect of our species' evolutionary history. It will take thousands of years to change it, but that does appear to be our trajectory; we are less sexually dimorphic than our ancestors, and the worldwide cultural pattern seems to be to encourage that trend. I suspect birth control methods, above all else, will hasten our evolution toward innate monogamy and equal partnerships.

rodentdp · 2010-10-05T10:35:26+00:00

When I've dated and cared, they generally don't want to stay.

When I've dated and not given much of a damn, it's hard to make them go.

What're you supposed to do? Well, shit...either way, my sex drive makes me feel like a junkie looking for a fix, so I have to do something. In that case, the question really becomes "Who is this going to hurt worse: you or me?"

And then self-preservation takes over.

I'm sorry ladies, because I'd really like to hold you close, stroke your hair, and maybe get to know you. But if I do that, you're going to see me as weak and spineless, and in the end I'll be holding my bleeding heart for all to see.

Better you than me, honey.

johnnycarson · 2010-10-05T08:08:58+00:00

I can understand the frustration, but in the end it takes two to play the game. I grew up knowing that you open doors for women, you walk on the street side of the sidewalk, you ask for a woman's opinions, etc. If I'm on a date and a woman thinks this is "too nice" then she won't get a second date (and she probably won't want one either). Thats what dating is for: to vet out potential wives, booty-calls, friends, etc. It aint the end of the world if one date goes bad. It is the end of the world if you are so paralyzed by fear that you can't share your true self with someone new because you are afraid of being called the "fag who opens doors for women". I remember what my grandfather said to me on my first day of college, "you can't put the pussy on a pedestal". In other words, be yourself and don't be afraid to ask for what you want, be it a relationship, a one night stand, etc. And the craigslist post that is quoted in the article is, to me, a perfect example of what is wrong with guys who complain that women "only date jerks". Not once is it mentioned that the "recovering nice guy" asked his object of affection out on a romantic date. Not once did he mention that he revealed his true feelings. Yes, he showed it through his actions, but if you don't at least tell the woman you want to be involved romantically, then she won't have the option of accepting or rejecting your request. Its like typing out your feelings on a random craigslist post hoping that she's read it rather than telling her your damn self. Or is that the point?

helleborus · 2010-10-05T17:34:08+00:00

I'm going to go ahead and express my skepticism that it's any easier to find a good man than it is to find a good woman. Many people - not just women, not just men - are selfish, spoiled, greedy assholes. If you don't want to get burned by someone like that - avoid them. I've been dating for 30 years - I know how to spot an unsuitable person. If you're going to fall apart because the rules are not the same as they were for your parents - by all means, take yourself out of the dating pool.

There's a lot of advantage to he way things are now too. People aren't stuck for life with the person that they found charming in high school.

2010-10-04T23:00:45+00:00

Wow. This is some article!

kloo2yoo · 2010-10-04T18:41:03+00:00

strong potd candidate

planafuneral · 2010-10-05T11:12:34+00:00

Excellent article. This articulates all my feelings and experiences with near exact accuracy.

phyzome · 2010-10-05T12:27:30+00:00

Well, I must not be a modern man.

brknhrtd · 2010-10-05T17:09:19+00:00

Good grief, I read through the first page of comments and I'm appalled. So here's my rant based on some of generalized bs I read:

[Deleted Entire Original Comment]

Forget it. It doesn't matter because ultimately assholes do not belong entirely to the male or female species. The fact of the matter is that plenty of people still hook up and manage a happy coexistence despite the selfish, arrogant, mind-playing tricksters. I'm about to be single again, I'm a good person with self respect and a considerate attitude and I'll be damned if I would put up with anyone who thinks that all women or all men fit a specific personality.

The point being - if you're confident, considerate, loving and love to bang a lot make sure you look for that in a partner, if you haven't met that person yet doesn't mean they don't exist and you should lower your self worth to play mind games.

PS- everyone holds people to a different standard; what do you care if you see someone with a jerk or a bitch, why would you want to be with someone who has no self respect?

planafuneral · 2010-10-05T12:50:30+00:00

So basically, my choices are be this amazing, attractive, high earning, nice, bad boy, who knows exactly what she wants before she wants it, or be an asshole.

The first option is impossible... and I don't much like the second option. I don't want to be an asshole.

I realized all this years ago. Here's how I reconcile my need to get laid and my desire to not be an asshole: hookers.

I have saved an infinite amount of time and money not playing the game. Once or twice a week I spend €100 or so and pay to have sex with escorts. I've had porn stars. I get to do all the nasty shit I love and I'm in and out in 30 minutes to an hour. What do I do with the rest of my time that I would otherwise spend on her bullshit? I spend it on myself. Education, seeing films, eating out in posh restaurants (weekly I eat out 4 times a week, going to the restaurants with the best reviews). If I need friendship I hang out with my mates.

I simply don't care what women want or think. They simply do not register. I don't open doors, give up seats, none of it. I don't have girl problems. I have over €50,000 in savings and no debt.

If some women wants my time or attention she's going to haver to make an extraordinary effort to prove she's worth my time.

BTSavage · 2010-10-05T17:25:06+00:00

Okay, I don't get this stuff at all. Where do all these women exist? Do we as men really pretend that we don't play games too? Why is it that men think that the only reason PuAs exist is because of the way women treat men? I'm inclined to think that the current mental state of women is a reaction to the way men have treated them. And we're now pissed because we are on the other end of the shit-stick.

This phenomena of male victimhood baffles me. Sure, the portrayal of men in the media is unfair and stereotypes us as brooding, incompetent, man-children. But these types of articles that make it seem that men are so chivalrous and only become manipulative after encountering these women "who want one thing in September, but something else in December" is utter BS. We as men have just as many competing wants and desires and are just as likely to change our minds about what we want out of relationships with women. And I can speak from my own experience that I have dated women with the intent of sex only while dating others looking for something deeper and more committed.

My belief is that these types of complaints and articles are written by men who have been burned are are looking for external forces to blame instead of doing a little introspection to determine how their behavior and actions contributed to their situation.

evileddy · 2010-10-05T18:40:01+00:00

As female friends of mine have frequently admitted, women rarely know what they want at any given time. Part of them wants to indulge her animal instinct to have lost of sex, part of her does not want to be seen as a slut; part of her wants to get married someday, part of her wants to get laid tonight because she has not had sex in a long time; and part of her wants a nice, stable guy who is “marriage material” while another part of her wants a tough guy who will excite and ravish them.

Fuck that noise.. I'll be at a brothel.

2010-10-05T14:43:12+00:00

It's all true. You are stupid to marry a typical westernized girl. This is why guys want Asians, Indians, Arabs, and any other women except typical white westernized girls that have no idea what they want, and are nothing but trouble.

snapple42 · 2010-10-04T23:44:57+00:00

Great stuff. The craigslist link in the article is great too:

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/lax/483318927.html

WideLight · 2010-10-04T22:47:19+00:00

This should most definitely be crossposted to TwoX. Highly relevant.

edit: I really can't believe how on-the-head the author nailed it. I've been mulling this whole thing for a long time and Samuel just got it all out there. (Well, most of it)

wristcontrol · 2010-10-05T11:51:49+00:00

Outstanding article, really hits the nail on the head. I'm curious to find out how widespread this behaviour is across the western world, whether it's localised to just a country or two.

I do have this closet dream of moving abroad to somewhere where I wouldn't have to put up with this kind of bullshit...

MisogynistDouche · 2010-10-05T10:08:12+00:00

It's probably because women these days are basically psychopaths with no mind of their own. They constantly absorb their shitty cosmo mags and dumbfuck reality shows and expect men to continue drooling over them and using sex as a key to get anything they want.

If men are pigs, women are parasites.

cefm · 2010-10-05T15:42:35+00:00

Sounds like there's a lot of people who aren't actually TRYING - just sitting around bitching on the internet.

Cloberella · 2010-10-08T16:16:36+00:00

So women are individuals with diverse, unique tastes, thoughts and opinions of their own that don't necessarily correlate to one another or any/all other members of their sex, and who's behaviors can't be nailed down into a predictable set of patterns dictated by something as superficial as their gender? You don't say.

Maybe we should stop looking at people as either male or female and start seeing people as... well, people, each with their own unique set of views, thoughts, wants, needs, likes and dislikes.

Edit: To be fair I do get fairly annoyed with my female counterparts because they seem to say they want one thing, but respond to another. However, I've recently found out this is also true for men. The nicer I am to men, the more they ignore or "friendzone" me. The ones I've acted like I was too good for, or dismissed and behaved completely indifferent or uninterested towards, pursue with doubled effort. I think in general, people just don't know what they want and don't know themselves as well as they think.

Dawgz83948 · 2010-10-05T17:55:45+00:00

Women with attitudes have dug, not only their graves, but have given all women a scarlet letter (so to speak). Most women try to pound it into men that they are equal an do not want special treatment, and do not want to, for instance, marry, stay home with children, cook/clean becuase it is beneath them. So men have to do this for themselves (no biggie). What conclusion have men come up with? Women are only good for 1 thing; sex. I'm by no means insinuating that this is true accross the board, and my wife an I have been married for 12 years now, and we are both happy. Over all the feminists have "lost", not because women are not treated as equals, but becuase women have lost the special position and place they had to their own detriment. Where feminism went wrong is: they strayed from what I think the main point should have been. Women should be allowed to vote (duh). Women should be allowed to work at non-menial jobs with equal pay. Women should be allowed to choose to be single and not need a man thus the need for equal pay for equal work. However, women like my wife are looked down upon, because she chose to get married young, chose to have kids young, chose to be a housewife/stay at home mom. I would not trade my wife for any of these stupid stuckup, entitled bitches I have had the displeasure of knowing and working with. One stupid chick was mad because I held the door open for her, so as she was bitching at me, telling me that I'm "only holding the door open for her because shes a woman and that she does not need me to hold the door open for her" I said "ohh your one of those and fine" then I let go of the door while she was walking through it and it hit her.

I suspect this will not be recieved in the manner it was meant, but I think my point will get across.

Dekolta · 2010-10-05T07:43:53+00:00

Amen!

2010-10-05T20:17:52+00:00

Dude, women don't have to do anything. Your standards are only too high if you are not getting what you want. So if some chick tells you that she only wants a guy with sexy eyes, or a 10'' dick, or a 6-figure income, that is her right, as long as she's not complaining about her inability to find him. And for some reason, I don't hear women complain as much as men about the dating market. That should tell you something right there.

RoundSparrow · 2010-10-05T00:17:47+00:00

Only young women are selfish, manipulative and unsure of what they want in a relationship.

mightycow · 2010-10-05T06:17:09+00:00

I understand the frustration, but this attitude that a lot of men have is just as much a part of the problem as the perceived bad behavior of the women. Of course, many guys don't want to admit that they contribute to their own problems the same way many women don't understand how they're causing their own dating problems too.

tl;dr 50%BS

2010-10-05T18:20:18+00:00

This post really shows how young most of the MR's crowd is...and how bitter.

I hate to break it to you, boys, but there are plenty of people really fucking happy and getting laid and living life. In fact, thats most people. There isn't this "silent majority" of bitter guys who're going to "stick it" to society and women in particular. You're a tiny, unhappy minority.

I'm going to go have my boyfriend blow me now - best wishes!

rmbarnes · 2010-10-07T13:36:27+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Womyn1st · 2010-10-05T16:58:55+00:00

Some men just don't have it. It's sad to see them bitter about their bad circumstances, but they really don't have anyone to blame except themselves, and being bitter isn't going to solve anything. Maybe they should start improving their circumstances by not being such losers...

Title	Why Modern Men Are Angry at Women in the Dating World
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	95
Comments	134
Date	October 4, 2010 5:51 PM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/dmpf5/why_modern_men_are_angry_at_women_in_the_dating/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/why-modern-men-are-angry-at-women-in-the-dating.1047097 https://theredarchive.com/post/1047097

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