The pejorative term "manchild" is part of a pattern of gender norm enforcement where men are expected to spend their hard earned money on women and children instead of on themselves and their hobbies

DaBlockObama · 2021-03-07T16:39:08+00:00

Truth. A woman can spend thousands of dollars on paint for her face, bags to carry that paint with them wherever they go, perfumes, and uncomfortable shoes, and still be thought of as a regular adult. But if a guy likes video games or painting scale models, he is automatically a child.

Flaktrack · 2021-03-07T18:39:12+00:00

This is something that really annoys me, like, to be seen as a "real man" your entire existence must revolve around women, be it getting with women or supporting a woman. When I was trying out online dating, I've been told that I shouldn't include my hobbies/interests like tabletop games, video games, etc. or the fact that I'm autistic (manchild has often been associated with autistic guys) or the fact that I'm working part time as a cleaner. It really damaged me in terms of confidence and made me feel like that the only two 'valued' archetypal men are 'providers' who sacrifice everything to provide for women and the 'macho man' who's tall, strong, very stereotypically masculine, dominant but I didn't fit either of these archetypes thus saw myself as 'low value man', so-to-speak. It's what really drove my insecurity and made me desperate for validation from women, to feel sexy or be told that I'm attractive at least once in my life. Luckily I've started to move past it, build up my self confidence after I came to the realisation that I should not be afraid to be myself and if that makes me 'low value' then so be it as I do not care for the acceptance from a society who judges my value based on whether I am good with women or can fulfil a provider role.

feltentragus · 2021-03-07T20:00:52+00:00

Agreed with you right up to:

Let him have his hobbies...

Rather:

We have the right to spend our money as we choose. No more of this begging for favors. We claim the right.

Other than that, good post!

peanutbutterjams · 2021-03-07T21:49:40+00:00

Firstly, this isn't a mono-perspective among women. You'll most often hear "manchild" from women who are mostly concerned about social upward mobility.

Secondly, I think you're focusing too much on the financial aspect. There's always various factors that go in to explain any one thing.

The insistence that men always be mature, always be competent, always be father-like, as icky as that is.

Real men aren't silly. They can be funny, but not silly.

Real men don't engage in 'childish pursuits'. I'm sure the people flinging the word "manchild" around wouldn't mind if that person spend as much or MORE money on cigars and whiskey since those are 'manly pursuits'. They show that the men will stay within his defined gender roles.

As someone else pointed out in another comment, it's strange to look down at contempt on video games (while at the same time our society says 'women play video games too' and we're not supposed to think of it as a primarily male pursuit....until it's time to look down at video gamers and then it's just ~~men~~ boys that play) when (most) women engage in dress-up every day. There's an entire industries* devoted to the materials necessary for this past-time: paint, accessories, clothing, etc.

*(And yes, it's not all. My wife never wears makeup. Neither do many of her friends.)

I'll agree that manchild mostly refers to men who are not conforming to their gender expectations. I don't it's just restricted to a financial consideration by these women, however, but an un-examined expectation of 'masculine behaviour' from their men.

Again, I qualify because there is a kind of guy who acts immaturely towards other people. Not showing up when they say they're going to, expecting their parents to bail them out financially because they can't be bothered to get a job, etc. Now this is distinct from someone who chooses a low-energy job that pays the bills and leaves enough for pot and hobbies (i.e., the supposed Gen X lifestyle). They are often called a 'manchild' as well but as long as their lifestyle isn't harmful to others, it's their choice to make.

Since this is a leftist subreddit, we should add how well these male gender expectations benefit capitalism. Women working and having more control over their spending was fabulous for capitalism. As is society expecting men to make their careers the penultimate focus of their life (their wife and children being the first priority).

It's gender norm that occupies so much space in our society and yet it stands deconstructed. We're down to micro-aggressions for everybody else but monoliths of male gender norms like these stand untouched.

I don't believe it's a coincidence that the gender norms upon which capitalism relies stand untouched by a society that has committed to freeing everybody from the assumptions of the past.

Capitalism doesn't care if it's a man or woman, black or white, who gives a sassy thumbs down to labour reform. Identity politics doesn't hurt it and yet consumes the majority our socio-political attention.

It's important to talk about injustices but when we choose to talk about Injustice X that kills nobody and affects 0.03% of the already privileged first world, what other injustices are we then not talking about?

Isn't it an injustice in itself to not talk about, say, world hunger, something which will kill 24,000 people today, and tomorrow, and the next day?

We obviously have the time to talk about this issue, given how much time we give to the minutiae of our daily lives.

We have the resources to feed all these people and save them from dying (but don't because feeding the poor doesn't create profit and we are a profit-centered society.)

These seem like some pretty big issues to discuss. Our house is still burning and we're arguing about what artisanal salad we should have lunch.

I'd be more than fine to discuss ALL of these issues, at length, in a world where every person is fed, clothed, watered, sheltered, medicated and educated, where each of us have a right to self-actualization and it's recognized as our highest value.

But we don't live in that world. JK Rowling's (supposed) views on trans people is definitively not more important than preventing the senseless death of others, particularly when it's to the ~~tune~~ banshee wail of 24,000 people a day.

Flaktrack · 2021-03-07T19:30:23+00:00

I've been called a manchild for daring to play video games instead of wanting to go out to a shitty pub.

I own my home, work a full-time career, have my own modest business on the side, am well educated... how much more do these nutters want? I'm glad I found a sane woman before things went completely stupid because I'd be more than happy to be alone in today's dating world.

bison_breakfast · 2021-03-07T20:20:49+00:00

“Man child” is simply a slur that people (primarily women) use to put down men who don’t meet their expectations.

It’s a simple as that, it’s offense and we shouldn’t tolerate it.

SunnyDrock · 2021-03-07T21:57:27+00:00

Literally all thus stuff can apply to women,but nobody would call them immature

fgyoysgaxt · 2021-03-08T01:15:32+00:00

There's more to it than that. I only logged in to reddit an hour ago, but already I've seen this. Someone was saying that if your wife does the grocery shopping, then the husband is a child and needs to grow up - apparently real men (tm) do the grocery shopping.

I think the core concept is that men should live their lives solely for women. Anything that detracts from that (having a hobby, not doing a chore, etc) makes them less of a man.

Men aren't supposed to be happy, they are supposed to make their wife happy - happy wife, happy life.

omegaphallic · 2021-03-07T22:56:58+00:00

Screw that, I enjoy my hobbies, I would not enjoy beung borderline property of a wife, a human mule/atm.

nocturnefox · 2021-03-07T23:53:03+00:00

I always think of the bit from Guys & Dolls when someone uses man-child or insults anyone's hobbies as childish where the uptight dad who gave up playing saxophone a long time ago because he had "responsibilities" (at least that's how I remember it) went back to playing at the end and was less miserable as a result. Basically, it's silly to expect anyone to give up something that makes them happy and isn't hurting anyone because society says it's "immature".

Rockbottom503 · 2021-03-07T22:01:40+00:00

I've had this conversation a few times - like alot of things, this shit is simple projection on the part of the woman. Deep down, she knows it but women like to make themselves to be superior. You boil it down and it doesn't matter if you're male or female, the toys don't change - they just get bigger as we do; girls stop wanting to dress dolls houses and tend to baby Annabelle and start wanting to dress a real house and have real babies. Lads stop wanting toy cars and want real ones etc. There is zero difference - her wishes and wants aren't any more mature than yours on a basic level...... Societally, they're just more necessary for continuation and so more palatable.

DanteLivra · 2021-03-07T21:06:45+00:00

Preach !! 🙏

HogurDuDesert · 2021-03-07T18:10:41+00:00

To be honest, I've seen manchild used more in the sense of a man behaving immaturely, sometimes puerile, although not necessary.

ThrowawayIIllIIlIl · 2021-03-08T17:05:25+00:00

I agree that the manchild insult is a gendered insult meant to emasculate and belittle men who don't conform to some kind of cultural norm. It is usually applied to men who have what others consider to be "boyish" hobbies or childish attidudes. Honestly I am conflicted on this use of the insult. Because I have hobbies many consider childish, but there are also definitely plenty of habits that I would consider childish in an adult man. I am aware that telling men to 'man up' is an incredibly shitty thing to do. But I do feel like sometimes people do have some growing up to do, usually in how they deal with emotional distress.

I have not seen or experienced it as an insult for men who refuse to 'settle down' as you describe. Men should of course have the same reproductive and personal freedoms as women and thus should not be shamed or shunned for not choosing family life.

Lastly, you describe that the message you experience is that 'mature/real men' should provide for women, and that the needs of their spouse should supercede their own. This seems to be a recipe for an incredibly toxic relationship, not a modern equal partnership.

I would definitely agree that a father should put his childrens needs before his own pleasures though. Because the relation between parent and child is not an equal partnership by biological necessity. I would consider any man who pursues his own pleasures before the needs of his children to be a pretty bad dude who is setting his children up for failure.

BloomingBrains · 2021-03-08T07:10:23+00:00

Of course, there's also nothing *wrong* with spending money on women or children. I'd be happy to spend money on a woman I am in a relationship with, and (eventually) children as well if it progresses to that point, providing that my significant other also contributes equally in the same way. But since I've been perpetually rejected, I never even had that opportunity. Which I think is the ultimate irony about this; the very same people that the insult is directed at are often the ones that were never even given a chance to accept it in the first place. So what else do you expect us to do? It's like denying a job application and then complaining when the potential hire finds a way to work freelance.

To be fair though, from what I've seen, this insult seems to be mainly directed at 30+ men. I'm a bit younger than that so I've personally never heard it, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was relatively common for women in the 30+ age range to direct at men in the same range. It's basically another variant of "where have all the good men gone".

So now who is entitled? Is it the person who kept trying really hard to make some kind of relationship work, but when they kept getting told "No" over and over again, they built their own life for themselves? Or is it the one who ignored that guy over and over again, and then later on wants him back, so she uses shaming tactics to make him out to be failure for not dating her? Never once have I ever tried to shame a woman for not choosing me, but that is exactly what this rhetoric attempts to do, in a comically ineffectual, obvious, and self-deprecating way.

Singdancetypethings · 2021-03-08T16:06:20+00:00

I agree with the subtext that "manchild" as a term has come to be used as a weapon against men's hobbies and self-improvement, but I reject the concept that the term manchild has no place.

Take for example, Jim Cramer, who during a twitter beef where he was weathering insults because he shilled for hedge funds, brought his mother into the conversation to try and bait insults, threatened to dox people who called him mean names on twitter, and just overall threw a temper tantrum repeatedly.

Burlerevyy · 2021-03-08T01:44:31+00:00

Womanchild

Blunt_Sage · 2021-03-08T03:54:57+00:00

I've never used (or heard) the term manchild used in this way before. It has always been a reference to grown men who shuck adult responsibilities (ie paying their bills on time, eating a healthy diet, cleaning their homes, etc.).

2021-03-09T14:21:04+00:00

All of my life I've dealt with shaming or the fear of being shamed. I cannot even socialize or be honest with most people anymore in fear of them just laughing or acting condescendingly. I have already experienced it. Even more so from other men than women, which says a lot about how cruel our society can be and how we love to create hierarchies everywhere.

ObviousObservationz · 2021-03-07T19:31:53+00:00

Here are some other quotes from the article you quoted.

"When he goes out or spends time with friends, he becomes an adolescent again. He can’t keep adult limits with alcohol, abuses recreational drugs, participates in pranks or generally reverts to a middle-school sense of humor."

"This can be anything from the mundane—picking up his clothes and food items around your shared living space—to the more serious, such as picking up after his unpaid debts"

"When you stop the nagging and try to bring up deeper issues or your deeper needs, he makes a joke, changes the topic, looks at his phone, or turns the tables on you by telling you what you are doing wrong in the relationship"

Those seem like pretty legitimate complaints to me. Dismissing these things as this author just being upset that more money wasn't spent on her seems unfair.

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