Is there any way to have a productive (or at least without personal attacks or severing otherwise healthy friendship) conversation when someone says "Men have it way easier than women" ??

Punder_man · 2022-01-24T09:24:35+00:00

Unfortunately people in this position are often set in their views and so it becomes impossible to have any real productive dialogue with them because they will see any attempt to reason with them as disagreement.

Your friend is probably looking at the things that happen in her life and is unfairly comparing it to the lives of men around her which look by her standards better or easier than what she goes through.
And hey, i'm not going to say that some men don't in fact have it far easier than women or vise versa.. but the problem is you wont ever get her to see that just because some men seem to have it easier than she does.. that does not apply universally to all men.

"What can be considered luxury life for a woman would just be normal life for a man"

And then gently bring up that for many men this would not be the case..
Good luck.. I wouldn't even bother trying because I doubt it would make any headway but feel free to try.

RockmanXX · 2022-01-24T13:56:26+00:00

If i a man said this:-

"What can be considered luxury life for a man would just be normal life for a woman"

He'd be called an incel/mgtow/redpiller, will be hated by everyone and called the scum of earth. No one will give the benefit of doubt to the man who's saying hateful stuff due to his trauma, he will be treated like an irredeemable monster by everyone. I mean, Society already treats men who don't live up to masculine standards like "defects".

Is there any way to do this without severing our friendship ??

List out the problems you've faced in life as a Man and tell her "If you still think men have it easy then i guess i can't change your mind, believe what you want to". You don't need to change her mind, just give her your personal anecdote as a Man.

Oncefa2 · 2022-01-24T12:34:35+00:00

If women have things so hard then "easier" can still be a difficult life.

I personally have sympathy for biological issues that women have. I don't know how all of that weighs out but the dogma of radical feminism is that men and women are equal and all difficulties faced by women are caused by society.

In a normal conversation though it's not hard to say that having a period sucks but being seen as a criminal and having people assume the worst about you also sucks.

In my view men are discriminated against in society, whereas women might have things hard biologically on the other hand.

I don't know where a fair compromise is (or if it makes sense to try and balance things out) but most people don't want to have that conversation. Society does not understand men or treat them fairly. Punishing men with crappy divorce laws and stigmas around domestic violence because women have periods, in an effort to even things out, is not the answer. Giving people more sick leave and a better social net so that women, and men who need that, can utilize it is the direction we need to go in.

DevilishRogue · 2022-01-24T10:45:31+00:00

I'd like to have a productive and helpful conversation with her to help her cope with her anxiety, as well to burst her myths regarding this. Is there any way to do this without severing our friendship ??

I'd just say that the grass always looks greener but that 99% of guys in the developed world would happily trade their lives for the life of an average woman. You can mention things like the life expectancy gap, the empathy gap, the tax gap, the educational attainment gap, the touch gap, social expectations, all the help and support women get officially and unofficially that is denied to men, etc. if she asks what you mean.

AdamChap · 2022-01-24T16:32:10+00:00

If this is the kind of friend that drops their problems on you from time to time and that's that, I would re-consider the friendship altogether... This sounds like a relatable situation for many people I am sure...

In my experience it is an utter waste of time to attempt to deprogram oversensitive women on the topic of feminism. I would normally say something like "Do you not think life might be equally bad for a male but the societal paradigm prevents us from speaking out like a woman might?" and "With the understanding that women are more likely to experience worry and anxiety in general could it not be the case that women perceive the world to be more hospitable for them?"

It never works, they tell you that you scare them and you never hear from them again, or something like that.

WeEatBabies · 2022-01-24T13:57:47+00:00

If men have it wayyyyy easier, explain the 3 times the amount of homelessness and 3x the amount of suicides!

Also use this quotes : "Saying men have it easier, because most CEOs are men is the equivalent of saying : black people have it easier because most NBA players are black!"

I've been saying it for years, if I'm gonna be re-incarnated, in any time period or place in history, I would want to be a woman!

matrixislife · 2022-01-24T13:31:14+00:00

It's unlikely you're going to get anywhere with this. You've specified two opposing goals: to help her anxiety, and to burst her myths. Effectively telling her that her life is already easier than most is not going to help with her anxiety at all.

CaptSnap · 2022-01-24T18:14:35+00:00

You can attempt to be rational. Any model of the world should be supported by data.

If men lead vastly easier lives then social data should back that up.

Youd should see males doing better from the beginning... say bodily integrity backed by law would be a start.

childhood education, are boys doing better than girls? are they surrounded by fathers and male role models? are they overwhelmed with messaging about how awesome they are and definitely not messaging that all the world's woes are their fault?

secondary education. are boys least likely to face punishment? are boys least likely to be expelled? are they most likely to graduate? are they most likely to find positive programs affirming their self worth?

When boys and girls turn 18in countries that draft, who goes? In countries that practice corporal punishment, who is punished that way?

college... are boys most likely to matriculate? are boys more likely to graduate? are boys more likely to find disciplines which elevate them or denigrate them?

what about healthcare? mental health? Do men receive the bulk of healthcare spending? Do they live longer? Do they pay less?

what about criminal justice? who receives better treatment at each and every step? who is killed by police like 96% of the time. Who has the harshest sentences? Who can shoot their partner in the back with a fucking shotgun, serve less than 1 year and still get custody of the damn kids? no shit Mary Winkler did Do you think her case adds to the statistic of domestic violence against men or women? Yeah, think about that.

What about our social programs... are there a dearth of shelters for men? are the minority of homeless men? are men encouraged to seek out govt aid (hell any aid) of any kind? and if they do is there an abundance of it? in natural disasters is it official policy by most NGO's to help strictly women or men? In war torn countries, are men kill on sight or women? what about refugees...when male refugees flee are they welcomed with open arms is that women?

what about employment? are employers encouraging men to apply? are employers offering bonuses to managers that hire and promote men? are tech companies throwing a ton of money to recruit men? Are colleges? is anyone? anywhere? do men or women commute further? do men or women work longer hours? do men or women suffer 95% of all workplace fatalities? Do men retire earlier?

There are two pools of money for federal aid programs, like FHA or USDA or SBA, one for minorities and one for everyone else including minorities... which pools are available to women and which pool is available to men? Are there a ton of ads looking for renters with a preference for men?

Hell is there even an overarching general feeling that in general men are just wonderful? Or are there about six threads a week where /r/askmen or /r/twox are having some conversation about how can men or women, just by virtue of having to exist in the same place the other, make themselves less terrible and so damn scary to be around? But keep in mind they're all progressives so we have progressed a great deal from these exact conversations held about black people just a generation ago.

so what institution is left that favors men? if none of them do then men's luxurious life must come from outside of institutional realms. So what would that be?

If theres little to no data to support a model and a dearth of data to deny it then why isnt it anti-intellectual to hold onto it? Its little different than flat-earthers at some point, or climate change deniers or anti-vaxxers.

kinkyonebay · 2022-01-24T19:16:12+00:00

Send her the link to Casey Jay's documentary The Red Pill. You don't have to have the conversation with her. Let her hear it from the perspective of a reformed feminist.

eldred2 · 2022-01-24T18:27:03+00:00

Many women like to remind us men that we have no window into "women's lived experience." What they fail to recognize is that they have no window into ours either.

Odd-Command-5475 · 2022-01-24T21:37:11+00:00

This is how men have it easier than women:

Guy calls the cops because his girlfriend punched him in the face after a heated argument. Guy called the cops to have her removed from his property. Police respond to the call and follow by interviewing the woman first then comes to the guy and arrest the guy without taking a statement because the woman stated that he pushed her when the guy is bleeding out of his nose and theres no sign of abuse on her. They let the woman stay at the guys property until she is ready to leave while he is in jail. Guy gets a sentence for domestic violence. My brother was that guy and I was there present and they wouldnt take my testimony because im his brother.

Also guy now has to pay for child support while his 6 year old kid is with a mother who leaves the kid by himself on saturdays to go party but since guy is convicted for that bullshit made up incident of domestic violence. Now they have a restraining order against him so he cant have the kid but he has to pay almost 1k dollars a month in child support until the kid is 18 years old.

So yes Guys have it easy.

iainmf · 2022-01-24T22:56:51+00:00

I recommend How to Have Impossible Conversations: A Very Practical Guide Paperback by Peter Boghossian and James Lindsay .

The main point of the book is that you get people to think about how they know what they know, rather than try to convince them with facts. Once they start thinking about how they know something to be true, if they have used a good method of finding the truth, they may start to doubt their convictions. This is the first step in them changing their mind.

Listening and understanding is also really important. In the book the authors say that you want to get to the point where you can explain to them what there position is and for them to say "That's right." Ideally you can explain their position better than they can.

So in your case, you might want to talk to her about how she reached the conclusion that men have it easier.

For example, one phrase I have used in the past is: We are obviously coming from this from different perspectives and I don't really understand your position, can you walk me through you thinking from the beginning, and then perhaps I might get it.

I found that people who make statements like 'women are oppressed' haven't actually considered men's experiences. When I ask them how they reached their conclusion they will list off a bunch of bad things that women face. I'll ask them if they considered what things are like for men, and typically they haven't. I'll ask them, "hypothetically, if things were even worse for men, could we say women are oppressed?"

Then, I turn the discussion to how we could figured out if women or men have it worse in a fair way. I mean, what criteria would we use to make that judgement that wouldn't bias the answer one way or the other.

I think there is no fair criteria because there are so many factors to consider that boiling it down to one figure is impossible. It is possible to say that women or men have it worse in certain limited domains, though. EG life expectancy, retirement savings etc.

Algiz56 · 2022-01-24T10:45:13+00:00

I think, you can have a more personal approach. People often use a generalization as a mean of psychological defence.

You have heared it many many times, when a guy out of an abusive relationships says that all women are X, Y, Z, wich actually means, that he feels sadness, anger and kinda asks for comfort.

I think you should ask her about anxieties and their causes, and find out what really is behind her behavior, instead of fighting with windmills, aka her misandric ideas. They can be pretty much just an ink cloud of sorts.

BobbyByrde · 2022-01-24T13:59:14+00:00

There is a way to do this, but it requires a bit of compartmentalizing.

Raising something like this shouldn't be done when she's emotionally heightened. Just like you, or me, or anyone else, when we're anxious, angry, upset or stressed, its difficult to think clearly and its really important to be compassionate to your friend first and hear her frustrations. Perhaps she is saying some unfair things, but the subtext here is "I'm suffering" or "I'm anxious", and she needs support for that first.

Once you've approached it at an appropriate time, engaging in a head on debate may not be the best option. Trying to "logic and reason" your way through can sometimes lead people to feel attacked and double down. There's enough of that going on already.

Also, if at all possible, try not to raise men's struggles in opposition to women's. Our struggles exist for myriad of reasons, but making it a "whataboutism" isn't productive, and doesn't address the underlying causes and call to action.

Instead, a Socratic methodology, and then an emotive sharing of experiences can lead to more compassion.

This may begin with, "what does it mean to struggle?", or more positively "what do people need to thrive in life?"

These questions often reflect things like Maslow's Hierarchy of needs, shelter, food, water, warmth, family, relationships, mental health, self actualization, etc. These things aren't really disputable, and make for some common ground to build of.

From there, you can ask her about her experiences, and you can offer your own, relating them back to the needs. No one can take your experiences from you, or invalidate them, nor should you seek to invalidate hers. If you're able, you can offer to share evidence to support that you're not the only man struggling in the ways you are, but generally seeking mutual understanding among friends is a beautiful thing.

My partner is a feminist who supports the rights of men, and I sit firmly in both sides as an advocate for men's issues, as well as women's issues. We are far more active, productive, knowledgeable and resilient as a result of us openly communicating, sharing ideas and experiences.

BannanasAreEvil · 2022-01-24T17:47:38+00:00

My opinion is don't do it, at least not in the very near future. Right now she is mad at the world/life and is in no headspace to break from the woe is me mindset. I'm not bashing her or anything, but in her current state she just wants to feel that way and its natural.

In the future, when this current breakdown lapses would be a good time to discuss things with her. Just be careful not to try and have an oppression Olympics argument with her. Someone else mentioned that the "grass is always greener" and this is true.

So instead of "counter points" you expand on her points to bring men into the fold as well. So when she says something about being scared to walk at night, instead of saying "Men are more likely to get attacked than women" say something like "I know how you feel, I hear stories about other guys getting jumped/stabbed/mugged/killed all the time and I'd rather not walk at night if I dont have to.

Plenty of talking points she can bring up that you can express empathy with, while also conveying that the grass isn't always greener on the "mens" lawn either without making it a contest. I would leverage your freindship to show empathy and see if she can express some empathy towards you as well. Give her personal examples, see if that helps.

TomJCharles · 2022-01-24T22:04:51+00:00

If she has an ego investment in the idea men have it harder, you may be out of luck. Any type of ism (feminism/veganism) can become part of the identity, or self image. She may see challenging her views as attacking her. She may become defensive if she uses men have it harder as a reason to remain moored in victimhood/receive special treatment.

But more and more I feel that the conversation you want to have with your friend is one that all of society needs to have, in a way. The myth that modern men's lives are somehow substantially better/easier allows a lot of people to justify an increasingly gynocentric view in which men are treated like objects. Who would have seen that coming.

Visulas · 2022-01-25T01:19:59+00:00

My current partner was similar to this. I remember the look she gave her friend when I said "I don't think we've proven men have it easier than women". I'd describe it as 'is he actually serious?'. For her, it was never in question that I meant well, perhaps just being misled.

I think, the only trick is going the extra mile to ensure the other person doesn't feel defensive or that you are being less open-minded than they are. Nobody questions their own beliefs in an environment where they feel unsafe.

That said, she never said anything as ignorant as that, so I'm not sure my trick is robust enough for that challenge.

hi__mynameis__555 · 2022-01-24T18:22:52+00:00

This is easier than you think but like someone else said, it requires compartmentalizing your feelings.

Understand first of all that if she's saying these things to you it's because she trusts you. Don't burn that bridge lightly.

Secondly, her feelings are valid in that she's your friend and she's going through a rough time. As stupid as it is, she probably actually doesn't believe that all men have easier lives than women. Don't get me wrong, what she's saying is definitely hurtful... but if she trusts you enough to say it to your face then in all likelihood it's mostly just venting.

Thirdly, don't approach it as trying to change her mind. This is not a debate. This is a friendship. Don't do what these people are saying and go in guns blazing with a list of things men suffer from and be like "that's the facts ma'am, you're wrong".

Look at it like sharing and understanding experiences. There are some things she's probably right on - I'll never have a period and my life is objectively less stressful because of that. But I'm stressed over other things. Empathize with her when it's appropriate.

I find what most people like her do is focus on the negative aspects of being a woman and seeing things as better on the other side. I mean, I do the opposite as a man a ton of the time. Your first instinct is to tell someone saying it's so great to be a man that it's not the case all the time. But isn't it the case sometimes? I know at work I get a lot more automatic respect than my female peers, who have to prove themselves before people take them seriously.

And that's what I would focus on. Not that she's wrong entirely, but that there's good and bad. That there's a lot of privilege and a lot of disadvantages. It's okay to admit that you're envious of another genders treatment - I sure as hell am. It's okay to admit she's likely right about some things as well. But we're all human and we all face struggles.

Maybe also turn her to some experiences of trans men and women. So far, that's something I've found has helped, since many of them have had experiences being perceived as a gender they are not. The differences are palpable and there's a lot of celebration on both sides. If people can celebrate being a woman after having everyone treat them like a man, then maybe the case is that genders have their own unique battles and it's possible to find happiness no matter your identity.

Cainer666 · 2022-01-24T19:17:49+00:00

No - once someone has their identity tied up in an idea, it's a pretty tall order to get them to look at it critically.

locke265 · 2022-01-24T21:22:08+00:00

When people are in that state of mind, it's best not to say something like that. Choose when to have those types of talks and when a person is in a middle of a breakdown, it isn't the right time. At that point, what would be the purpose, that person is hurting and having a debate doesn't help at all. Just empathize with them instead.

If you want to have that talk when there isn't intense emotions behind it, I usually just emphasize that we face different pressures. Women may or probably have it tougher but men struggle as well. Especially with mental health issues. Key is not to diminish the pain other people feel.

politicsthrowaway230 · 2022-01-24T22:21:33+00:00

Focus on the "way easier" rather than the "easier" altogether.

Carkudo · 2022-01-25T01:22:09+00:00

In theory it should be. In practice everyone I've ever met who subscribes to the notion either walked away from the conversation or was in a position of power over me and used that to shut me up.

genkernels · 2022-01-27T07:57:16+00:00

Nope, even though "men have it way easier" is wrong and has been wrong that statement is still a distraction. Injustice is injustice and that phrase is just a way to ignore injustice because it isn't what a feminist would address.

Beyond that, talking to feminist women that know you IRL about how the victim identity cult is wrong is socially dangerous. Even though the worst of that danger is mostly limited to co-workers, I would be very careful about linking my IRL identity to this in the presence of feminist women.

Syndocloud · 2022-02-01T10:41:39+00:00

feminist believe "harm" and "men" are concepts separate from each other.

language and semantics are not powerful enough to bridge this gap for them

you either tell you don't want to talk about it or convert them away from feminism. this proccess will allow them to see harm not "harm" and men not "men" but this itself is an argument.

The-WideningGyre · 2022-02-06T14:31:30+00:00

It's not worth arguing with someone about such things, typically. Especially (and this is a stereotype, but one with a large kernel of truth), not when they are having a bad period day. Hormones mess with your mind.
Some of the stats I find most shocking is that women live longer than men, in almost all countries, but 2-5 years, typically. Men commit suicide about 3x as often. 90% or so of people in jail are men. 2/3 of the homeless are men. It seems hard for me to say that life is "on average" considerably better for men. (And god I hate the "life on easy mode" quip).

3/4 of murder victims are men (There is something to the point that other men are usually doing the murdering, but it's not the whole story). Something like 90% of deaths at work are men (which ought to balance out some of the earnings).

Final point -- yes many of the people at the very top are men, but that doesn't help 'the rest of us' any more than the queen in England, or Angela Merkel in Germany helped the average woman.

You can also ask about some male friend you know who has it tough, and ask if she thinks he has it easier than her.

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