"We have no objection to the genuinely egalitarian aspects of feminism, but we will criticize feminist ideology wherever it is inegalitarian and/or untruthful, especially now that it holds institutional power."

a-man-from-earth · 2022-03-10T10:10:00+00:00

Your edit is a real shame...

I think you can all see that the majority of the comments here have been explaining to me why this sentence from the mission statement is not the case,

That is not true. It is a misrepresentation. There is a lot more nuance in what we have explained to you. But you seem to be set on interpreting things your way.

and that I really shouldn't call myself a feminist

You can call yourself a feminist and engage in good faith. You can't expect us to accept your view of feminism wholesale. It does not comply with reality.

You could say that we think you shouldn't call yourself a feminist without some qualifiers.

The overwhelming opinion is no, there is no way to call yourself a feminist and be welcome here, no matter your opinion on male issues and male advocacy.

That's a gross misrepresentation.

So I humbly suggest you change the mission statement,

The mission statement stands as it is, because it represents our point of view.

because despite the suggestion, there is no agreement with the egalitarian points of feminism,

There is very much so, as we have repeatedly explained to you.

because the large majority of you don't believe that exists and refuse to believe that there are egalitarian feminists.

Again, a gross misrepresentation. We do believe there are egalitarian feminists. But we have also explained why they do not represent feminism at large. Which is something you refuse to accept.

I will see myself out.

If you can't participate in good faith and refuse to listen to our arguments, that would be best.

It's a shame because I was hoping you would find your home here and would learn from the wealth of information here.

And finally, you really should read this comment and take it to heart.

MathematicianNo4277 · 2022-03-09T09:45:07+00:00

I used to call myself a feminist and believe feminism was about men too. Preach it even. Said the only problem was the name.

Then reality disagreed.

Feminism is a powerful movement where I live (Belgium).

Right now the secretary of state for equality is a card-carrying radfem. She had 7 new shelters for battered women open. None for men. Who make up 80% of the homeless. One the three leading causes of homelessness in men is intimate partner abuse.

The minister for social affairs is also a ranking feminist. She created a rehoming program for the homeless with a 50/50 gender quota. Men still make up 80% of the homeless.

Our minister fo foreign affairs has made feminist propaganda and priority for women a condition for foreign aid subsidies. She's a feminist too I suppose, although I don't know nor care to know at that point. What I know is that she imposes on us (I work in an NGO) to give priority to gender equality in "every aspect of every action" and just to be clear, gender equality is defined in the same guidelines as "the advancement of the rights of women and girls". Again, 80% of the homeless are men, not only at home, but worldwide, 95% of war victims are men, 95% of prisoners are men. How the fuck are we supposed to prioritize victims that barely exist?

Just last month the national Institute for the Equality of Women and Men wrote to me that as a man, I couldn't be considered discriminated (on an issue I am being severely discriminated about). The law is written in a gender neutral way, but the staff of the Institute is 100% radfems, so what good does that do?

The University my husband works at just made "gender equality" a priority. Their goals? More girls in science, more women in authority positions. Boys now make up less than 40% of graduates? Not even a mention. Of course, all of that is helmed by feminist figure who is now "vice rector for equality".

Feminism is not about equality. It might have been, some feminist might believe in it, but institutional Feminism is a hate movement.

austin101123 · 2022-03-09T00:20:59+00:00

A post solely about left wing politics wouldn't be appropriate here, as this is a male advocacy subreddit. But we do it as left wingers. So you may see neutral male content, left male content, and male content that points out the badness in left or right wing.

People will post want they want to but you still get the full spectrum. I've made many successful posts involving leftwing-leftist economic values.

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/p52r79/providing_for_children_increasing_equality_and/

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/paeo2g/instead_of_raising_wages_and_employee_benefits/

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/rdv82o/lwma_supports_unions_and_rantiworks_efforts_to/

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/q8cxpm/what_issue_do_you_think_best_epitomizes_why_you/

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/pvg74p/corporations_are_not_your_fucking_friend_and_you/

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/ph0u9a/capitalism_is_making_you_lonely/

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/oq7c27/we_are_left_we_are_male_advocates_we_fight_for/

When I see men framing men's issues as because of feminists instead of because of societal and legal roadblocks, I have to wonder, is there any positivity in this movement?

Who do you think made many of those societal and legal roadblocks? For example VAWA, tender years doctrine, and Title IX implementation are all feminist.

It happens often that we get general complaints like this too, but nothing specific pointed out. What posts here are bad? And if there are posts you want to see but don't, go ahead and make those posts.

themolestedsliver · 2022-03-08T23:33:32+00:00

Moderate and radical feminists both believe that:

Men as a group have oppressed women for thousands of years through a system of patriarchy that men allegedly set up for this purpose, believe that misandry is less consequential than misogyny, believe in the idea that men have privilege over women, believe that violence is gendered and is mostly a male problem (e.g. "it's men that kill other men", "it's men that start wars", "men are more violent than women", "male violence"), believe that men that watch porn are objectifying and dehumanizing women and possibly enabling sex trafficking (there are very few sex positive feminists that take a positive stance towards porn these days), are often quick to blame any problems men have on "the patriarchy", have fully signed onto ideas like "emotional labor", blame men for enabling "rape culture" and for not doing enough to stop violence against women, often make excuses for women that harm men (i.e. "she was abused", "she wasn't mentally sound", "she had problems", "she was fighting back").

There's not much difference, except the verbiage. Moderate feminists are radical feminists with a friendly face, for all intents and purposes.

They only seem to call out radical feminists if they think the radical feminists are making them or feminism look bad.It should almost go without saying that neither moderate nor radical feminists are pro male.

Blauwpetje · 2022-03-09T17:31:55+00:00

Every few weeks a moderate male feminist chastises this sub always for the same reasons. I don’t think these meta-discussions are very useful. If you think there are concrete issues that LWMAs should talk about more, post an opinion and/or a link about it. It may be received enthusiastically or you may be disappointed (both, by the way, happen to every member). Don’t post stories about what this sub ‘should be’, because it is simply what thousands of members make it based on the mission statement. Nobody forces it one way or another, and neither can you.

a-man-from-earth · 2022-03-09T01:27:18+00:00

Yes, it's true.

I haven't seen any sort of acknowledgement of overlap between feminist groups that are egalitarian and male advocacy.

Just a few days ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/t4r9x8/interesting_discussion_about_modern_feminism_by/

And Cathy Young comes up as well: https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/phz9wn/in_the_series_oldies_but_goldies_a_classic_by/

So there is some acknowledgment of egalitarian feminists. But there are so few of them that you will have to excuse us for habitually generalizing feminism as misandrist. Because overwhelmingly what we see from the feminist side is misandry.

I feel like this sub has the potential to be about men and for men but I see more content about anti-feminism and complaining about women wholesale than I do men's issues. I also see very little discussion about left wing politics.

I feel this is bad-faith criticism, or maybe you have a very limited and cherry-picked exposure to our sub. We do not allow "complaining about women wholesale" here, as per rule 6. If you see such cases, report them.

very little discussion about left wing politics

This is a sub with a very specific focus. We don't discuss politics in general, but we do often tie back male issues to politics. Of course we also discuss wider societal issues that affect men, and that isn't necessarily explicitly political.

Could we more explicitly discuss politics? Sure. But saying that there's very little does not really do us justice. Right now there are discussions about the human rights of men who want to leave Ukraine with their families, about selective service, about the Florida bill forbidding discussion of gender orientation with young children, etc.

I can be a male advocate and a feminist.

You can be. But there comes a point at which you should reconsider whether that's a productive position to take, when feminists in positions of power overwhelmingly are anti-men, and get very little if any pushback on their misandry.

MelissaMiranti · 2022-03-09T02:08:54+00:00

Who complains about women wholesale here? Report it, it's against the rules.

DekajaSukunda · 2022-03-09T14:15:37+00:00

I'm always a little confused when I read men saying they've never encountered the most radical branches of feminism irl. I stopped identifying as a feminist because I had trouble finding feminists who actually weren't like that. I always wonder if this has to do with them being straight and not being familiar with the discussions women have behind closed doors?

I do agree with you as a whole that centering your movement around anti-feminism isn't the best course of action, and yeah, I also agree this is a pretty anti-feminist sub. But for me that's just how the sub operates... Irl and online the only spaces where you can criticize feminism without repercussion are the sort of right-wing echo chambers, so I think it's understandable there'll be a lot of that here.

RockmanXX · 2022-03-09T06:20:03+00:00

Let me start by prefacing that i cannot stand inflammatory Identity Politics about Race, Culture, Religion and Gender. These things are very personal to me, i pull no punches when i'm dealing with someone that is actively antagonizing my race/culture/gender.

. I feel like this sub has the potential to be about men and for men

This is my primary issue with feminism. Feminists "assume" authority in Male Spaces&Discussions about Men's issues, even though feminist spaces only allow Men to speak on Feminist terms. You JUST came here and you're already trying to police us like you're a Reddit Admin.

When I see men framing men's issues as because of feminists instead of because of societal and legal roadblocks

Feminism IS the road block Men Face. Duluth Model was created by Feminists, Feminists fought a gender neutral Rape Law in India, the LARGEST Feminist organization in U.S opposes Shared Parental Custody. U.N discriminates the poor by Gender because of Feminists. Either i'm blind or these are Legal Road blocks created BY Feminists.

I can be a male advocate and a feminist.

How's that possible when you believe that Society is built to privilege Men? What kind of a social issue can Men have if they're socially privileged by virtue of their Gender? The Answer, NONE or at best negligible issues, which is the position most femimists take. Feminists seek to tear down social constructs that hurt women and erect new ones to uplift them, OTOH they believe Men are unfairly propped by Society, so they see no reason to systemically address Men's Issues. Men already control Society via patriarchy, right? If the World is already what Men desire it to be, what's the need for Male Advocacy? Isn't Patriarchy already Male Advocacy?

I rambled a lot, i would like to hear your reasoning behind why you think Men need any advocacy. Because if i understand Feminism correctly, Men's issues are male privilege backfiring, i guess it "backfired" the moment i was born and hasn't stopped backfiring ever since lol

2022-03-09T10:45:42+00:00

Aspects of feminism does harm men massively, especially with the double standards and misandry. I would like plenty more posts highlighting the damage extremely wealthy people in general (including men) are doing to suppress the poor and removing welfare nets for all. Unfortunately, I've discovered there is often a harmonious correlation/overlap between both feminism either defending or taking the spotlight away from extreme wealth inequality.

How many times do feminists and companies hail female 'empowered' celebrities whom actually treat other women (funny enough) and men with utter disdain? Quotas on gender representation at board rooms is also very welcomed as a rather convenient side distraction on the corporate scale, but no quotas on poverty stricken backgrounds getting fairer representation in the board room or better pay.

I certainly do not see the likes of Kate Perry, Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Kardashians, or Rihanna wanting to give up their slice of the pie so easily. Ask them. See where you get. And the frustrating thing is that feminism is frequently used as a shield to deflect away any criticism of that. Try it on the internet. You'll soon get the "you just don't like strong women" defence card thrown in your face.

a-man-from-earth · 2022-03-08T23:27:59+00:00

Feminism can never be pro-male, it is centered in patriarchy theory, which portrays men as a group as being guilty of oppressing women and used as a justification to ignore and downplay men's rights issues.

lightning_palm · 2022-03-09T07:16:02+00:00

Here's a comment I made on the MensRights sub in reply to someone else a few days ago: https://np.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/t6cexk/a_reminder_to_support_women_who_stand_with_us/hzqqdmj/?context=0

I suggest you have a look at it (and the second-next reply below that) if you still don't get why we are so against feminism.

BloomingBrains · 2022-03-09T23:04:26+00:00

People don't talk about feminists that are egalitarian because there really aren't any. Ok, there may be some, but the dominant sect of feminism right now are the third wave radicals, not reasonable egalitarians saying women should have the right to vote. I mean this is 2022, not the 1960s, so lets not be anachronistic. They (the third waves) have a lot of social influence right now so of course people are going to talk about them more often.

If you're an egalitarian, then why call yourself feminist? Just call yourself egalitarian if you're really about equality. Calling yourself a feminist suggests you think gender biases are slanting in favor of men/against women right now, and that women's rights is the side that needs correcting. If that were really the case then maybe it would be understandable but its clearly not.

As for "complaining about women"...you make it sound like the discourse here is a bunch of sexist ranting and raving about women when in reality, its much more like well-reasoned and intellectual critiques against concepts like hypergamy, the empathy gap, etc. And oftentimes users (including myself) go out of our way to point out how these concepts are ultimately denigrating to women in the long term as well. Mods are very quick to remove misogynist comments or even well intentioned ones that simply aren't clear enough that they're saying "most" or "a general trend" and not "all". To be totally frank I think most users of this sub are actually more benevolent towards women as a whole than even most "feminist" groups.

2022-03-08T23:42:32+00:00

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WeEatBabies · 2022-03-09T02:34:28+00:00

Feminism is to equality what the Taliban are to world peace!

Do not judge these groups on their recruitment speech, but on the laws they pass and the actions they do!

vagrantgastropod1 · 2022-03-09T04:10:33+00:00

I mean from what I’ve seen come out of this sub I simply disagree. I think a lot of the posts are actually often really fair to feminism and many of the folks here do support/recognize many feminist issues. The only posts opposed to feminism are in response to extremist feminism that is blatantly misandrist or hypocritical. I seldom see anything otherwise but maybe I’ve missed something idk. This is just what I’ve seen come out of here.

Edit: spelling

2022-03-08T23:26:49+00:00

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Peptocoptr · 2022-03-09T01:17:27+00:00

God damn it. Why is this thread so tense? Can everyone chill tf out? As much as I disagree with mainstream feminism, you have the right to adopt the label if you want. Personally, I'm neither a feminist or an MRA. While I agree with MRAs far more often, adopting either label over the other limits my way of thinking about gendered issues and puts me in a box, so it's either both or nothing. I prefer nothing, but if you want both, I think that's fine. The term "feminism" is so broad that it can mean almost anything at this point anyway, including polar opposites of itself. As long as you don't buy harmful feminist rethorics, we should be cool. I don't know what part of this sub you've been on, but I can tell you that most of us follow the mission statement well enough. Our criticism is mostly constructive, and we do look for actual solutions to these issues. This is the first time I see such agression. OkDifference makes some good points in my opinion, but he has no right to censor you.

Edit: The thread is much calmer now than it was at first. Thank god

WhenIsItOkayToHate · 2022-03-09T09:01:58+00:00

The "anti-feminist" stuff is merely an objection to the following premise (which all feminist explicitly believe): society was created BY men FOR men at the expense of women. That is the fundamental presupposition of feminism... and it's an obscene and apocryphal claim.
"Left-Wing" politics, and all politics generally, have a tendency to dismiss the fact that people are PEOPLE, and not fundamentally (which is to say, individually) political entities; in other words: there is an exception lack of consideration for fact that people suffer from existence itself. Not everything is a social construction, and in fact, social construction are (and certainly have been) a solution to much of the aforementioned existential suffering. Feminism, like all orthodox ideologies, is nothing more than a facade to obscure it's ultimate goal: nihilism - the will for non-existence.

2022-03-08T23:27:30+00:00

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danbert2000 · 2022-03-08T23:31:50+00:00

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a-man-from-earth · 2022-03-09T02:45:51+00:00

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Phantombiceps · 2022-03-09T06:22:32+00:00

Some of the mods here believe modern western liberalism IS leftwing politics. The rules are also set up so that debate of how to even approach gender equality from a left wing and egalitarian positions will be a violation. Then such posts and comments get removed. The justification for the censorship is apparently that the sub is always under threat of quarantine or removal by reddit. So that liberalism ends up indirectly and perhaps unintentionally enforced. That accounts for some of the lack of left wing discussion you mention.

South1cr · 2022-03-11T23:10:24+00:00

The hell is wrong with u - https://youtu.be/0vP7U0ByIio

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