Most women DO support men being more emotionally vulnerable and receiving support on and offline, but that doesn't excuse being a toxic cry baby with a victim complex

wtknight · 2022-10-18T03:10:33+00:00

Removed. Only one post allowed per user every 12 hours.

techr0nin · 2022-10-17T23:18:45+00:00

I’m confused. So men are allowed to be emotionally vulnerable but only if it is at the appropriate level and only if you do not deem it whining?

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again — men can show emotional vulnerability to their women if they do so from a position of strength. A strong man being occasionally vulnerable can make him seem more human and relatable without damaging the woman’s sense of security, and it can feel like a privilege to be inside your head. A weak man being vulnerable just confirms the woman’s fears or suspicion that she is with a pussy and destroys any sense of attraction.

NockerJoe · 2022-10-17T22:59:55+00:00

"OP invalidates their own point" is my favorite genre of PPD post.

throwaway6162510 · 2022-10-18T00:02:22+00:00

Been with 6 girls, all had that facade of it's okay to be soft When it was over I was a crybaby bitch lol

starunner · 2022-10-18T02:04:28+00:00

So because people are having issues with distinguishing someone simply being emotional and vulnerable vs being emotionally toxic. Though I don't really like OP's use of the word "crybaby".

These are some healthy ways of expressing emotions:

sharing the effects of past trauma
expressing anxiety about something going on in your life
feeling "down"
grief over someone or something lost
opening up about mental health issues
expressing that you feel self-conscious, disappointed, frustrated, ashamed, lost, angry, or lonely

These are things that a decent and empathic person, regardless of gender, should be open and understanding about.

Unhealthy, toxic behavior/ways to express emotions:

emotional manipulation/guilt-tripping
using your sadness or mental illness as an excuse to be an asshole or protect yourself from being held accountable for your behavior
complaining about issues in your life despite being unwilling to look inward and see how your own actions may have effected your situation.
refusal acknowledge or take responsibility for the ways in which you can improve your life, and instead blame others for your problems
constantly dumping your trauma or negative emotions on someone while: 1.) disregarding the other person's emotional state at the time, 2.) being disinterested in reciprocating their openness, or 3.) being unwilling to seek any help when your mental health issues are negatively affecting your life and relationship

Believe what you want about women's perception of male vulnerability, but I know I certainly want to know what my SO is going through because I care about him and his mental health... and so I can understand his headspace and possibly have an opportunity to help in some way. Healthy relationships have open communication, and that includes the dark shit. But sharing the dark shit doesn't have to involve making everyone miserable.

ChibsFilipTelfordd · 2022-10-18T01:51:00+00:00

You are markedly incorrect and the fact that you even used the word crybaby advances harmful stereotypes about patriarchy and masculinity. Not just harmful to men mind you. Women say they want men to open up (mind you, they mean in certain ways and not others, but men will shut off entirely if they encounter too many women like you).

Soft men are NEVER more attractive to women than the same man in all facets who is stoic. I say this as a man who is soft in some ways (highly neurotic/clinical anxiety, wears emotions on sleeve, cries in front of women) and hard in some ways (very good and quick decisive decision maker, extremely assertive and extroverted, makes plans to fix problems instead of dwelling).

The misunderstanding here is that women just want a man who's NATURALLY stoic. Women don't want a man who pushes down all his emotions! Ofc not. He might snap and punch them one day or something horrible like that. But she also doesn't want a man who cries in front of her.

I'm lucky enough to have enough very strong masculine traits in other facets of life (pretty solid face with sharp jaw, full head of hair, 6'3, "endowed," amateur mma and muay thai fighter, good career in a "sexy" industry, etc) that I can and do express a lot of emotion to girls. Many of them put up with it. Those get dumped. The ones who truly stick by me, though. Those are the real ones, worthy of true love and admiration and devotion by my full Self

RisingHegemon · 2022-10-17T23:12:05+00:00

The men you seem to date don’t sound emotionally vulnerable, they sound emotionally manipulative. If that’s a recurring issue in your life you should ask yourself why you keep dating men who are “openly critical, rude, and insensitive to others.”

While I agree that men should be allowed to be more emotionally vulnerable, I’ve found in my personal life that I’m going against social expectations from both other men and women if I do so. The constant refrain you hear as a young man from both genders is to “man up” instead of seeking help for your problems. Despite claims that it’s okay to be more vulnerable, most women in my experience still expect men to be dominant and take the lead in most situations, from casual courtship and dating to legitimate crisis response. Being emotionally vulnerable, and being a leader can run counter to one another — to run into the fire you literally have to suppress your emotions to do so successfully. And to bear the burden of romantic rejection, as men typically do, requires you to suppress your emotions, lest you be overcome by them. As far as the men in your life you describe, I can’t speak to them other than to say that maybe you need to reevaluate your tastes and go for more mature men with higher emotional intelligence.

There are absolutely crybaby men out there. There are also crybaby women. Pointing fingers at each other doesn’t help move the conversation forward either way — I think everyone needs to demonstrate a bit more empathy.

tonyghow · 2022-10-17T23:18:26+00:00

I have no issue with men showing emotion. I actually like passion, and that comes with emotion and vulnerability.

The “catch” is when they’re complaining about something they could easily fix.

I mean, if you’re complaining about something you have no control of or are seeking advice, I salute you just for being humble enough to ask. But if you complain and keep doing the same thing that causes the problem, I have zero empathy for you.

Edit: I just like the humility of a man who can show his emotions. It shows he’s not stuck up.

Kman17 · 2022-10-18T00:36:19+00:00

I think a few things are being conflated here.

To start, by and large, men are not asking to cry / express grief / show emotion / seek comfort in public.

Feminist women are suggesting men “should” do so - but their incentive is attacking toxic masculinity and advocating their preferred way to react to stress.

Women do not actually value men whom do so as partners; they simply want men they are less interested in to engage as they do.

Many men do wish for more mental health resources, yes, but in the form of access to professionals / paid time off from employers. They are not asking to engage and share with their platonic male friends the way women do.

I do think there is a sizable number of lonely men, due in a large part to years of Covid and today’s dating scene.

The men whom actually want public recognization of their mental health are, indeed, typically toxic people with victim complexes. I don’t think the number of them is large, no matter how loud they may be.

More commonly, men that articulate this are often being kind of disingenuous - they are pointing to a double standard where society supports, believes, and excuses women’s stresses and relieves them of accountability but not men. They actually don’t want the mental health for men, they want the same level of accountability for women they feel men are held to.

unloader72 · 2022-10-17T22:58:55+00:00

When a guy whines about not being able to be vulnerable towards women, he is unaware how weak and disgusting women sees him. He radiates ungrown manchild vibes.

Man up and pull yourselves together.

Nothing is as pathetic as a guy crying in front of a woman with his shaking high pitch voice.

TotalTravesty · 2022-10-17T23:31:24+00:00

Barking up the wrong tree. The PPDers who take issue fundamentally irrevocably genuinely don’t understand the difference between showing emotion like an adult and like a spoiled crybaby.

spinky_bum9451 · 2022-10-17T23:25:57+00:00

I've definitely said before on PPD that sadness and depression is practically the only acceptable negative emotion men are allowed to express on reddit. If they weren't crybabies they'd be someone very rude and disrespectful, so take your pick.

unicornpicnic · 2022-10-18T01:19:58+00:00

I cried in front of a woman and she stayed with me. A lot of guys just date shitty women who are more interested in relying on a man for their own emotional regulation (which gets ruined by seeing them be vulnerable) and assume all women are like that.

Stunning-Spirit5275 · 2022-10-18T00:23:04+00:00

Conditional vulnerability.

Those expressions of emotions which validate, resonate or uplift those of a woman are deemed acceptable. Showing emotion or crying at a movie or maybe a happy occasion are acceptable. So too showing vulnerability in solidarity with a woman in times of her insecurities.

Those which make her insecure about herself or fearful of a mans possible utility make them unfeasible. Frustration or annoyance over anything work, finance or family related are unacceptable. So too any negative emotions associated with the mans mental or physical health, as these may be perceived to be a present or future detriment to a woman’s investment in a relationship vis a vis a mans ability to provide / protect / mitigate loss

ChibsFilipTelfordd · 2022-10-18T01:57:46+00:00

One example is guys posting their cry baby narrative of woe is me no one will fuck me shit all over online.

This is NOT relevant to this discussion at all

Yes, sad sacks who don't get laid cry about it online.

So what?

this topic is about when you're in a relationship, showing emotion to your sexual and romantic partner

Flightlessbirbz · 2022-10-18T03:44:29+00:00

I guess it’s a bit of a two-edged sword. Men aren’t taught healthy emotional expression (women aren’t really either but that’s another topic). So they tend to express emotions in toxic ways when they do. Women hate it for good reason, so they freak out with “I’m not allowed to express my emotions!” and the cycle continues.

I’ve also gotten the “this is why I don’t talk about my feelings!” thing as a form of manipulation and excuse for inappropriate behavior, though. And in truth, women aren’t allowed to express a lot of emotions either, like anger.

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cromulent_weasel · 2022-10-18T20:47:23+00:00

Being emotionally vulnerable and is also a two way street, it isn't just about being able to cry and vent and be sensitive to things, it's also about being empathetic to others that feel the same.

Absolutely. I think you're conflating men being vulnerable in your post with a bunch of toxic behaviours like being manipulative or sexually entitled. I agree that those are bad things, and 'playing the emotionally vulnerable' card is manipulative and toxic under those circumstances.

But that's not where I'm coming from. The position I'm coming from is realising that empathy is something that in general isn't extended to men the same way it is to women. I went though a rough patch a couple of years ago. Lost my job, was out of work for 6 months. I started to realise some of the ways society shapes men and imprisons them (e.g. if you're not a provider you're worthless), and really try to deconstruct what that means to me. In a tale as old as time, my wife decided she wanted a divorce.

So the narrative of 'I tried being vulnerable, then my partner saw me a different way and we promptly broke up' has at least an element of truth to it in my lived experience.

I also think that if you try to talk about anything like this online you get strawmanned as a toxic mra.

Which fucking sucks, because I hate those spaces and their seething resentment of women.

You don't have to hate women in order to have empathy for the inequalities that men face, any more than you have to hate men to have empathy for the inequalities that women face (even though some radfems do in fact seem to hate men).

I can't be friends with women who play this same self pitying game of "oh the world is just stacked against me, no one wants to be my friend, boo hoo" type shit

I don't think that's how it works. I think it's more 'oh the world is stacked against me, therefore every sister needs to implicitly be my ally to make things more even'. Men are just more broken because they by and large have no clue how to build a support network of allies around themselves, so when they hit the bottom they bounce rather than get helped back up.

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Conditional vulnerability.