Rape is not 'normalized': expert says the vast majority of men would never commit rape

[–]avantvernacular 60 points61 points62 points 13 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]PierceHarlan[S] 43 points44 points45 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]nlakes 7 points8 points9 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]IameAuhSomme -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]burntoast101 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]General_Tsos_Chicken -4 points-3 points-2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]dalsgaard 26 points27 points28 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]PierceHarlan[S] 20 points21 points22 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]dalsgaard 20 points21 points22 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]PierceHarlan[S] 9 points10 points11 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]luxury_banana 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]typhonblue 15 points16 points17 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]burntoast101 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]PierceHarlan[S] 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MRB2012 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]PierceHarlan[S] 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]PierceHarlan[S] 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

typonblue, I appreciate your comments, and am not unsympathetic to your position.

First, you raise a good point about female-on-male rape. I agree that it is a very important issue. I do take issue with your indictment of COTWA on this. Our focus is on the wrongly accused. That doesn't mean I am indifferent to the rape of males. We have often written about boys twice abused: by adult females who statutorily rape them and then falsely accuse them of rape.

Second, if you are a regular reader of COTWA, you will know how we feel about vigilante justice when it comes to rape accusations. We are probably the leading advocates on the Web in opposition to it -- my guess is that no one would even raise the issue if we hadn't introduced it to the men's rights community. We've written about it repeatedly, and that's not what we're advocating here. We're talking about being attuned to the sorts of things Lisak has identified and reacting in an appropriate -- non-violent -- manner to it. I'll cite the example I've used elsewhere: No one would suggest Mike McQueary was a participant in Jerry Sandusky's vile misconduct (Sandusky is an example of a rape sociopath), but Mike McQueary wasn't attuned to react properly to Sandusky's vileness. Think of all the young men he could have saved from Sandusky's claws if he had just called the cops.

Please note that we also have stated repeatedly that innocent young women don't get a pass -- they are often in a better position to identify the sociopaths and to do something about it than their male peers. To suggest they are innocent leafs in the wind who have less responsibility to stop rape than their innocent male peers is loopy beyond all measure. We have been called a hate site because of such views.

In any event, I hope you support what we're trying to do -- even if we don't do it very well.

[–]glassuser 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BroChick21 11 points12 points13 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 13 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]Landarchist -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+]Landarchist -6 points-5 points-4 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AdSpecial73661 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Again you're not getting the point, when we say these things to women, it does not at all mean "Rape is a normal and expected thing in our culture".

Online gamblers and mutual fund investors are cautioned by government and by their peers to stay safe during these things as there is a potential threat that not all but some people might scam you.

I mean when you walk on a road, you have to be careful of a vehicle not hitting you and the driver should also be careful not to hit you. But if a driver is insane or something, then you have to protect yourselves. Does that mean there is an "accident culture"?

Summary: MRA's believe that that all women and men are deserving of equal rights, opportunity and equal dignity and nobody deserves what Rape victims go through. But if you lack the common sense to not be cautious and then end up getting raped, we would still support you , demand justice for you and be sympathetic towards you, but we really cannot be empathetic towards you. Sorry if it's harsh.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fenrisulfr22 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]Landarchist -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fenrisulfr22 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Landarchist -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fenrisulfr22 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Landarchist -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Fenrisulfr22 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]insanemetal187 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]insanemetal187 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]insanemetal187 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't know what rape jokes you've heard but the ones that come to my mind are usually ones that are over the top ridiculous. That's where the humor comes from. Daniel tosh's joke is where much of this conversation sparked up. Does anyone really think he was encouraging the whole room to rape her? Does anyone think that it made rapist feel ok about what they did?

He said it as something horrible to happen to someone who was actin horrible. Also can we stop with this crap that everyone is just a rapist in waiting. A rapist made the decision to do what they did. They aren't looking for approval. They either were overcome by the urge and feel awful they did something so wrong. Or they are psychopaths and feel no remorse. Which of these people are looking to comedy for approval?

I have heard jokes I don't enjoy and offend me. I don't laugh or I walk away. Every joke contains something that will offend someone. To quote carlin it's either everything is ok or nothing is ok. You can't pick and choose who to coddle because another group will come along and demand the same treatment.

Just look at what's happened with words. We aren't allowed to say nigger anymore. Always wrong. Which turned into no longer being able to say faggot, midget and any other racial slur. By restricting things you give them more power.

One rape victim might be horrified by a rape joke another might enjoy the event being made light so it isn't so hard to deal with.

Personally I rather be offended than be in a society where everything is sanitized so no one gets hurt.

And btw I'm speaking for me, not MRA.

[–]LifterofThings 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Fenrisulfr22 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]tallwheel 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]4man 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]SteveHanJobs 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (43 children) | Copy Link

[–]PierceHarlan[S] 13 points14 points15 points 13 years ago* (22 children) | Copy Link

They mean it is an accepted aspect of gender relations -- the things you mention certainly are part of it. In fact, rape is overwhelmingly committed by a small band of sociopaths, and it is not acceptable to the vast majority of people, including the vast majority of men. I suspect that the vast majority of people don't have the benefit of knowing about Dr. Lisak's research -- if we want to combat rape, we need to educate people to be on the lookout for these thugs, guys who are escorting very drunk women they barely know out of parties, etc. And we need to stop making young men feel guilty just because a small percentage of young men are rapists -- and get them AND YOUNG WOMEN involved in helping to nab the rapists. It isn't just young men who should be involved, it's young women, too.

*EDIT: As founder of the leading blog that gives voice to the wrongly accused, I have no sympathy for these sociopaths. Just as rape liars diminish the perceived integrity of every rape victim, these sociopaths enable rape liars to tell plausible lies about the wrongly accused. Every rape that's reported enhances the plausibility of the rape liars.

[–]dalsgaard 8 points9 points10 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]PierceHarlan[S] 6 points7 points8 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]girlwriteswhat 6 points7 points8 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

What purpose is served, I wonder, by spreading the myth that rapists are often regular, decent guys who just made an error in judgment or shed one too many inhibitions just once, but can either learn from that mistake or be educated into not making it in the first place?

All that seems to do is give women permission to not report. Oh, he says he was just confused about my consent, he thought I wanted it, but he "gets it" now that he sees how upset I am.

The amazing thing is that Lisak has emphasized that these guys brag about how they emotionally manipulate their victims into not reporting the sex as an assault. I've wondered before whether the idea that "regular guys" rape by accident might originate in the accounts of victims to "researchers" who are ONLY interested in the victim experience. The rapists lies to the victim, the victim lies to researchers, counsellors and advocates who are only interested in the experiences of victims, everyone takes this hearsay as gospel, and all of a sudden we get "Don't be THAT guy" posters all over the place--all of it based on a rapist's psychological con game. The irony would be delicious, if it weren't so sad.

As I said in my video on the "Don't be THAT guy/girl" campaigns, if you really want to reduce rape (of women by men), you'd get the recidivists out of the population, and the best way to do that is to aim a campaign at women:

"He's probably lying to you. 90% of rapes are committed by men who've done it before and will do it again to someone else. Speak up."

A campaign like that would reduce rape, by shaming women into reporting, instead of out of reporting. Feminist advocates don't seem that interested in that, though--they go on and on about how any ordinary guy you know and like (perhaps your brother or father or son) could (and might, or would, perhaps even probably) rape by accident but can be educated into understanding the errors of their ways and never do it again. If she cries enough as he's getting dressed, he'll "get it" and not do it again. Besides, it was partly her fault because she didn't give clear enough signals for him to understand, right? So if we just bombard him with education so that he'd understand, he wouldn't do it anymore. She doesn't have to report it--he's probably learned his lesson. And besides, the scenario could be some other woman and her brother, and would she want her brother to go to prison for one mistake?

It's almost like feminists are more attached to the idea of man-hating than they are to the idea of actually reducing rape, and thereby sparing scores of potential victims the pain of being victims.

Regular guys rape by accident.

The police won't believe you.

Rape kits are humiliating.

Only 6 or 3 or -2% of rapists ever get convicted.

You will be revictimized at every stage of the process.

You'll be blamed for your rape.

Rape is such a shameful thing to happen to a woman, we must construct curtains around victims to spare them shame, because what happened to them is their own shame.

Feminist tl;dr: whatever you do, don't report your rape.

Who'dathunkit?

[–]PierceHarlan[S] 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You raise a good point. The most prominent voices insisting that women can't get justice in rape cases are paid sexual assault victims' advocates. A few years ago, the Stern Review in the UK, at page 45, chided rape victims' advocates because they make it appear that law enforcement is terribly, and uniquely, ineffective when it comes to rape. The Stern Review scolded them -- this type of advocacy itself could discourage women from reporting their ordeals, it said.

The myth that rapists are often regular, decent guys is part of a very troubling meme that masculinity itself is the real villain here. Maleness itself is on trial, and it has been convicted in the court of last resort -- the feminist blogosphere. The social construct of masculinity needs to be reconstructed from the ground up, and even garden variety acts are part of a rape continuum -- from a guy laughing at an off-color joke, to turning his head to glance at a pretty girl, to peeking at a Playboy Magazine, to rape.

My guess is that if we wanted to really address sexual assault, we'd have a lot more advocates, male and female, if we'd ditch the bullshit and stop demonizing the collective "men" and started talking about rapists. My guess is that most people who skew feminist actually agree that "men" are not the problem, only some men. The problem is that they allow prominent voices from their community to spout the language of gender get-evenism that suggests every incoming Freshman male is in some sense guilty by reason of penis.

[–]luxury_banana 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]AryaBarzan 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc -5 points-4 points-3 points 13 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Feminism is not "already doing that".

You obviously don't know what "Men can stop rape" and bystander theory is about.

Too bad "rape culture" is a theory which virtually no factual evidence supporting it.

Too bad more mra's don't focus on that fact and use predator theory to debunk rape culture theory in stead of going on with nonsense about women dressing "like sluts" (women dressed like this are raped by the law of averages but they are likely the minority), a bit of knowledge and research goes a long way. It would really help if a significant number of us knew their way around this stuff.

Are you one the mras that simultaneously wants women to be taught that they should do everyday things like dress with rapists mind and then wonder why some of them believe that they live in a "rape culture" and talk about shrodinger's rapist paranoia?

There are two types of rape hysterics in the gender debate, the feminists and the mra's that want to teach women to be on a full time anti-rape paranoia schedule with annoying and patronizing tips.

[–]AryaBarzan 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You obviously don't know what "Men can stop rape" and bystander theory is about.

I liked the part where you explained why our entire gender is supposed to "protect women". Isn't that part of the bullshit "patriarchy" you idiots spout?

Too bad more mra's don't focus on that fact and use predator theory to debunk rape culture theory in stead of going on with nonsense about women dressing "like sluts"

shitthatneverhappens.txt. Please show me where MRA's are "going on with nonsense about women dressing like sluts".

Are you one the mras that simultaneously wants women to be taught that they should do everyday things like dress with rapists mind and then wonder why some of them believe that they live in a "rape culture" and talk about shrodinger's rapist paranoia?

I believe that people should be cautious of their surroundings and not make up conspiracy theories about why society is the way it is rather than some "NO CRIME ZONE" utopia. Does the fact that I can't go out to MacArthur park at night and expect not to get robbed/mugged/murdered mean I live in a "theft culture"? No, of course not. Because its only some espoused "inequality" when women are the victim, right?

There are two types of rape hysterics in the gender debate, the feminists and the mra's that want to teach women to be on a full time anti-rape paranoia schedule with annoying and patronizing tips.

Rofl what "annoying and patronizing tips"? Be careful of your surroundings and don't pretend the entire world is some safe haven? Criminals exist and they PRIMARILY prey on men (since 4 times the amount of men are victims of violence than women). I encourage men even MORESO to follow these "annoying and patronizing tips" than women. You idiots pretend that if women cannot walk anywhere in the world at any time period, there is some imaginary "culture" against them. Stop believing your hogwash and actually READ the nonsense your writing here.

[–]Mytecacc 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Wait a second, if I explain that "men can stop rape" is about getting people (men) to intervene, it doesn't automatically mean that I believe that's what should happen. I'm only explaining because other mra's here didn't know that its about that, even though we should because as we go on and on about this rape culture shit.

shitthatneverhappens.txt. Please show me where MRA's are "going on with nonsense about women dressing like sluts".

I remember you and I had a long bitter argument on /r/masculism about that very thing over a year ago now. There is a thread here from yesterday, related to the slutwalks where a number of people are going on about rape prevention tips for women and women's clothes, its nonsense.

Does the fact that I can't go out to MacArthur park at night and expect not to get robbed/mugged/murdered mean I live in a "theft culture"?

No. Its means that you went somewhere that you clearly think has a culture of crime, or a theft culture present at night. If I go into a crime culture, the rules are different from when I am in the general society, I might dress down, so as not to attract attention and am always on guard - because crime there is normal and should be expected. Women get messages to cover up in general society and always be watching for rapists in the general culture from an early age, the same sort of messages you get about going to the park with the crime culture - hence the Shrodinger's rapist paranoia the talk about a "rape culture".

You idiots pretend that if women cannot walk anywhere in the world at any time period, there is some imaginary "culture" against them.

Fuck I hate our groupthink, anyone that actually knows what they are taking about on this or knows what their terminology means is instantly assumed to be an outsider, one of them. I'm an mra, just that is tired of listening to mra's giving out unsolicited, unwanted, redundant and patronizing rape prevention advice (we are not mrascanstoprape) and going on and on about this rape culture thing, while not really knowing what any of it is about, or knowing what their terminology means.

Its simple to debunk them with a little knowledge, but we generally don't have that knowledge and spin our wheels instead.

Rofl what "annoying and patronizing tips"?

All the stupid shit we keep saying about situational awareness and stupid analogies about rich men flashing cash in a crime culture (which ironically makes their rape culture argument for them). They have had it drummed into them more so than man have, even advised to dress with rapists in mind. That's why they find it patronizing and annoying. I find it annoying because we are nothing to do with rape prevention advice.

edited for typos.

[–]PierceHarlan[S] 10 points11 points12 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

If you have been reading my blog for the past six years or so, you know that I don't kowtow to feminist theories. I've been writing about the bystander stuff for years. The bystander model is flawed to the extent it puts the burden solely on innocent young men to police their peers. Innocent young women are often in a better position to do that. But make no mistake, it is in all of our interests to root out the rapists, and to know what to look for. No one would suggest Mike McQueary was a participant in Jerry Sandusky's vile misconduct (Sandusky is an example of a rape sociopath), but Mike McQueary wasn't attuned to react properly to Sandusky's vileness. Think of all the young men he could have saved from Sandusky's claws if he had just called the cops. Educating young women and men that there is a small percentage of the population that looks to take advantage of people is education that can't hurt anyone.

[–]MRB2012 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ManicMuffin 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]SteveHanJobs 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]SteveHanJobs 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]SteveHanJobs 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]SteveHanJobs 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SteveHanJobs2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[–]SteveHanJobs 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago* (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]SteveHanJobs 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]SteveHanJobs 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]SteveHanJobs 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SteveHanJobs1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]AdSpecial73661 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So if you leave the house, which increases the chances of you being hit by lighting, you are accountable if you are hit by lightening because you left the house and therefore deserve no sympathy.

If I leave the house during the time of lightning, yes I am, not by my perspective, but by a general perspective, it would be a stupid thing to do?

So,if you are drunk and wearing a t-shirt, and I stab and rape you, you are accountable because you were drunk and showing your arms?

I am accountable for getting drunk because that increases my chance of vulnerability and I can be an easy target.

There is nothing wrong in this mentality, both men and women should be cautious about their own actions.

If I am in a normal setting and I put my wallet on the road, obviously it's going to get stolen.

I am not pro-rape as I am not pro-any crime but if Feminism has such loose morals about safety and consent. It really isn't helpful for anyone so better they try to change their selective worldview.

[–]Mytecacc1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SteveHanJobs 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]SteveHanJobs 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Tomdowney 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Deansdale -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mytecacc 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]seiterarch 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Deansdale 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]stopsayingfaggot-5 points 13 years ago* [recovered] (25 children) | Copy Link

First, the insight that most men would not rape is not new to feminists. I'm not aware of any feminists that say otherwise.

Second, Lisak found that about 5% of men have committed rape, and 3% committed serial rape. Those are certainly tiny minorities of men, but they still amount to a fucking lot of men.

Third, Lisak's findings are only based on the US. Other cultures can be more permissive of rape - about one in four South African men admit to committing rape, as do one in five Chinese men, and one in five Indian men.

Fourth, that rape is "normalized" doesn't necessarily mean that many or most men would rape. It can also mean that rape is common, that instances or victims of rape are belittled or ignored, that rape is unofficially sanctioned or covered up by the community or authority figures (here's one example), or that rapists are given free pass to participate in society.

Fifth, the finding that male rapists are uncommon is in no way incompatible with the proposition that rape and sexual aggression are a normalized part of how the broader culture constructs masculinity, as evidenced by the prevalence of rape jokes, rape threats, peer-and community-sanctioned rape, or even ritualized rape in male hazing rituals and so forth.

In short, you're attacking a straw man. Nobody (today, of any note) is saying that a majority or large proportion of (American) men are rapists. But some of us are saying that prevalent attitudes and practices in that culture normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape. Contrary to your thesis, focusing on a small and largely unidentifiable group of serial rapists isn't going to cut it. Rape can only be addressed by fixing the broader culture in which they're allowed and enabled to operate.

EDIT: Added rape statistic for China.

[–]typhonblue 10 points11 points12 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]stopsayingfaggot-3 points 13 years ago* [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]typhonblue 6 points7 points8 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

That male rape is correlated with prior victimization by women doesn't mean that female rape is the primary way that men become rapists.

Actually, it has a lot more evidence behind it than the feminist belief that rape is a property of maleness or male culture.

Particularly since the feminist belief doesn't explain female rapists.

I merely showed that your bigotry translates easily, regardless of race, ethnicity or gender. Just insert your hated biogroup of choice and tie a social ill to them or a lack of your preferred group's oversight over their culture/behaviour/activities/thoughts.

are actually doing something about it.

And doing worse to hide it. Or legalize it.

Regardless, it looks like Lisak is a heretical feminist. I imagine he'll be getting his walking papers soon enough. Also you've exaggerated the stats about how many men rape. It's 4% are serial 2% not serial. I guess you really wanted to squeeze out that 10% number.

Do you actually believe that rape is caused by men or that men teach each other to rape when they're alone?

[–]stopsayingfaggot-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Just insert your hated group of choice and tie a social ill to them

Like how you blame male rape on women?

or a lack of your preferred group's oversight over their culture/behaviour/activities/thoughts.

I invite you to quote where I mentioned anything at all about oversight, of or by any race, ethnicity, or gender.

Also you've exaggerated the stats about how many men rape. It's 4% are serial 2% not serial. I guess you really wanted to squeeze out that 10% number.

First of all, if 4% are serial rapists and 2% are non-serial rapists, that's a total of 6%, which amounts to more male rapists, and more male serial rapists, than what I said (which was 5% and 3% respectively). So I actually downplayed, not exaggerated, the stats on male rape. Wow, you really do suck at math and statistics.

And second, here's the article linked in the COTWA post:

In 2002, he studied 1,882 male Boston students. About 5 percent admitted to behavior that meets the definition of rape – sexual intercourse with someone even though they didn’t want to, because they were too intoxicated to resist, or the male student used force. About 3 percent – 76 men — admitted committing multiple rapes.

Though you're right, and the linked article is wrong. Out of 1,882 men surveyed, 120 (6.4%) admitted to committing rape, with 76 (4%) admitting to serial rape.

Regardless, it looks like Lisak is a heretical feminist. I imagine he'll be getting his walking papers soon enough.

If he doesn't, will you admit that you're perception of how feminists operate is wrong?

[–]MRB2012 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]typhonblue 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AryaBarzan 10 points11 points12 points 13 years ago* (11 children) | Copy Link

Ah, lookie here! Isn't it another "against-the-rights-of-men" poster coming in here to take advantage of our freedom of speech and non-censorship rule that feminists refuse to give back!

Let's see how fast we can debunk this nitwit!

First, the insight that most men would not rape is not new to feminists. I'm not aware of any feminists that say otherwise.

And what exactly are feminists doing about it, again? It seems that "rape against women" has new campaign every other week with bigoted phrases like "teach men to stop rape" and falsified rape statistics. Yet, feminists seem to never be interested in teaching/protesting/addressing any of the problems that face men. Quite the contrary, they'd rather join hateful subreddits like the one you're subscribed to in order to pretend us big, bad MRA's are wrong by addressing actual problems.

Fourth, that rape is "normalized" doesn't necessarily mean that many or most men would rape.

Leave it up to a feminist to pretend a word with "normal" in it, doesn't mean "normal".

It can also mean that rape is common

If rape is "common", wouldn't that mean it's "normal" and that many/most men do it?

that instances or victims of rape are belittled or ignored

You mean like how entire audiences of women laugh at a men who get genitally mutilated by their extranged husbands? Yes, clearly, that's not a "culture". Ironically enough, I don't remember seeing television hosts laughing at a woman being raped and calling it "fabulous". Seems like you're blowing up this point a bit out of context, eh?

that rape is unofficially sanctioned or covered up by the community or authority figures

Yes, murder/theft/extortion has NEVER been unofficially sanctioned or covered up by a community. Only rape! It's really amazing how feminists attempt to exaggerate what happened in some small town in Ohio as proof of any of this.

or that rapists are given free pass to participate in society.

This is literally too stupid to even offer a response to.

Fifth, the finding that male rapists are uncommon is in no way incompatible with the proposition that rape and sexual aggression are a normalized part of how the broader culture constructs masculinity, as evidenced by the prevalence of rape jokes, rape threats, peer-and community-sanctioned rape, or even ritualized rape in male hazing rituals and so forth.

I couldn't be this much of a pseudo-intellectual if I tried. I find it ironic how you feminists waste so much time writing misandric nonsense about "toxic masculinity", yet cry misogyny when people from /r/TheRedPill discuss female hypergamy with evidence. Believe it or not, but people (men) joke about murder/theft/arson/etc too. For some straaaaange reason, it doesn't get any fancy "culture" or "toxicity" attached to it.

Nobody (today, of any note) is saying that a majority or large proportion of (American) men are rapists.

If you claim that it is "common", then obviously you'd be implying a significant amount of men are rapists. Also, I take it you've never heard of "radical feminism" nor their modern cronies which claim "all men are rapists". No, the feminist movement is filled with sunshine and roses, ain't it? ;)

But some of us are saying that prevalent attitudes and practices in that culture normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape.

Then why don't you extend your bullshit thesis into all crimes? Clearly, you're not stupid enough to actually believe rape is the only crime that gets made "jokes" about, do you? In fact, it's probably the least joked about due to the ridiculous taboo feminists have caused with it.

Rape can only be addressed by fixing the broader culture in which they're allowed and enabled to operate.

No. Rape is a crime and it'll be addressed like all other crimes. Take your bogus feminist conspiracies back to your censoring "against-the-rights-of-men" shit-subreddit.

And THAT is how easy it is to debunk a feminist. Pseudo-intellectualism at its finest, ladies and gents!

[–]AlexReynard 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Yes, murder/theft/extortion has NEVER been unofficially sanctioned or covered up by a community. Only rape! It's really amazing how feminists attempt to exaggerate what happened in some small town in Ohio as proof of any of this.

Very agreed! The people who crow about Steubenville never seem to acknowledge all the other athletes who've committed despicable crimes and dumbass deluded fans will still insist their innocence no matter what. Drunk driving, domestic violence, murder, the list goes on. The fact that Michael Vick still has a career is proof enough of this. It is, at the very least, an equally plausible explanation to say that Steubenville's defense of its rapists was not due to them condoning rape, but in sincerely believing that their 'hometown heroes' couldn't possibly do such a thing. Denial is powerful.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]ManicMuffin 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AlexReynard 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]AlexReynard 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AryaBarzan 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]stopsayingfaggot-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Yet, feminists seem to never be interested in teaching/protesting/addressing any of the problems that face men.

False.

Leave it up to a feminist to pretend a word with "normal" in it, doesn't mean "normal".

Normal means normal. It just doesn't mean that many or most men rape.

If rape is "common", wouldn't that mean it's "normal" and that many/most men do it?

If rape is "common", then yes, it's "normal". But it doesn't follow that many/most men do it. It could mean that only a few men (or women) do it, but repeatedly and towards many victims.

Yes, murder/theft/extortion has NEVER been unofficially sanctioned or covered up by a community.

Any examples? Any evidence that this is common?

It's really amazing how feminists attempt to exaggerate what happened in some small town in Ohio as proof of any of this.

And Pennsylvania, Michigan, Arizona, Colorado, Iowa, New Jersey, Montana, Milwaukee, to name a few.

I find it ironic how you feminists waste so much time writing misandric nonsense about "toxic masculinity", yet cry misogyny when people from /r/TheRedPill discuss female hypergamy with evidence.

While I find this ironic because /r/TheRedPill is an excellent example of toxic masculinity.

If you claim that it is "common", then obviously you'd be implying a significant amount of men are rapists.

Nope. You're putting words in my mouth.

Then why don't you extend your bullshit thesis into all crimes?

Because those other crimes aren't treated by society the way rape is.

[–]AryaBarzan 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

False.

Rofl, what a load of feminist hogwash. You honestly cite MICHAEL KIMMEL, Mr. TOXIC MASCULINITY and BLAME MEN FOR EVERYTHING as your source. That is literally the most full-of-shit post you could ever link. Let's see all of those men's rights protests Michael Kimmel and Hugo Schwyzer (who is pro-male-genital-mutilation, by the way) have set up. I also like how you take jabs at GWW and Paul Elam when you cite these man-hating idiots as "proof". But I'm certain you're so happy SRS-ers actually upvoted that garbage.

Normal means normal. It just doesn't mean that many or most men rape.

Thank for you feminists whom prefer to play semantics rather than actually address men's issues!

It could mean that only a few men (or women) do it, but repeatedly and towards many victims.

Or maybe, a few people do it to a few people and feminists bullshit statistics to claim it is more than it is in actuality.

Any examples? Any evidence that this is common?

You really need evidence that GROUPS OF PEOPLE cover up crimes? How detached are you against-the-rights-men's types from society exactly?

And Pennsylvania, Michigan, Arizona, Colorado, Iowa, New Jersey, Montana, Milwaukee, to name a few.

Wow, and you link to The Good Mangina Project (a feminist website) as proof! Wow, what UNBIASED news website!

While I find this ironic because /r/TheRedPill is an excellent example of toxic masculinity.

Thank you for proving my point. Why is there no "toxic feminity"? Oh, is it because precious women cannot be toxic in the feminists eyes? :)

Because those other crimes aren't treated by society the way rape is.

Out of curiosity, do you ever actually (god forbid!) read NON-feminist articles for a change? Like really. Do you honestly believe that feminist hogwash from "freethoughtblog" is going to convince anybody other than feminists who are already indoctrinated? Do you ever actually venture out of your little echo-chambers and reddit and read UNBIASED material that doesn't assume "rape culture" is a real thing without evidence? The only reason rape isn't treated the same way by society is because FEMINISTS work so hard for it to be treated differently.

[–]stopsayingfaggot-4 points 13 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]AryaBarzan 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ah, well isn't it the old feminist "I can't debate your points or give you a proper rebuttal so I'm going to pull the ol' switcheroo".

To answer your question, unlike feminists, MRA's don't receive incredulous amounts of government funding nor entire majors on university campuses. MRA's also aren't claiming to address women's issues (like feminism claims it does for men) and since feminism has literally done nothing for 6 decades but address women's issues, there is absolutely no reason for us to do so. The NCFM, AVfM and other smaller MRA groups have protested male circumcision in the past and continue to spread awareness of the problem. Feminism spends more time beating a dead horse with its already-made-illegal female variant than addressing the actual legalized genital cutting. MRA's also help father's rights groups protest bills and fight for rights. Let's also not forget that this is the treatment we get from your "friendly feminists" when we try to teach universities about men's issues. Either way, with what little MRA's get, we do A LOT (which is why we're growing while feminism is shrinking). The fact that feminists like yourself compare feminism activism (which has also had 6 decades of historical indoctrination) to MRM activism shows how little you really know about both movements or about the resources they uphold. If feminism was actually true to its goals, men's problems would be getting solved and there would be MRA's. However, it's very apparent that your movement/ideology cares very little about men.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MRB2012 6 points7 points8 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

First, the insight that most men would not rape is not new to feminists. I'm not aware of any feminists that say otherwise.

Marilyn French. Andrea Dworkin. Do I win a prize?

Second, Lisak found that about 5% of men have committed rape, and 3% committed serial rape. Those are certainly tiny minorities of men, but they still amount to a fucking lot of men.

That's nothing compared to the amount of men who would comply if the government ordered them to turn in their Jewish neighbors tomorrow. A lot of people aren't good. So what?

Third, Lisak's findings are only based on the US. Other cultures can be more permissive of rape - about one in four South African men admit to committing rape,

That's because South Africa sucks.

Fifth, the finding that male rapists are uncommon is in no way incompatible with the proposition that rape and sexual aggression are a normalized part of how the broader culture constructs masculinity,

Yes, yes it is. In fact, that's about as incompatible as any finding can be with that proposition.

as evidenced by the prevalence of rape jokes

There's a difference between a joke and an action.

[–]stopsayingfaggot0 points 13 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Marilyn French. Andrea Dworkin. Do I win a prize?

French made that assertion through a fictional character. Dworkin said no such thing, and specifically disavowed the idea. No you don't get a prize.

That's nothing compared to the amount of men who would comply if the government ordered them to turn in their Jewish neighbors tomorrow. A lot of people aren't good. So what?

Irrelevant deflection. And nobody ordered all of those men (American, South African, Chinese, Indian, or whatever) to rape.

That's because South Africa sucks.

So the next time /r/mensrights complains all about the misandry in the US, can I just dismiss it by saying that "that's because America sucks"?

Yes, yes it is. In fact, that's about as incompatible as any finding can be with that proposition.

That society constructs masculinity in a certain way doesn't mean that many or most men fit that construction. American culture constructs femininity as thin and sexy, and masculinity as strong and muscular, but last time I checked, obesity is still epidemic in the US.

[–]MRB2012 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

French made that assertion through a fictional character.

Wrong again. While French's statement "all men are rapists and that's all they are" was made through a fictional character, she did say the same thing in real life.

As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women...he can sexually molest his daughters... THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE.

So yeah, she did think that way. Bitch was crazy. And Dworkin was the exact same way, because she said this.

Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman

Don't try to lie to me.

Irrelevant deflection. And nobody ordered all of those men (American, South African, Chinese, Indian, or whatever) to rape.

It's not irrelevant. Lots of people aren't so good as you might thing them.

So the next time /r/mensrights complains all about the misandry in the US, can I just dismiss it by saying that "that's because America sucks"?

The US doesn't suck. South Africa does. It's not just sexual violence against women that's common in South Africa. South Africa, as a whole, is not a great place to live.

That society constructs masculinity in a certain way doesn't mean that many or most men fit that construction.

So it doesn't matter how few rapists there are, retarded gender studies majors will still scream "RAPE CULTURE" at us? Thanks for telling me what I already knew.

American culture constructs femininity as thin and sexy, and masculinity as strong and muscular, but last time I checked, obesity is still epidemic in the US.

The fat acceptance movement feminists are so fond of isn't helping with that.

[–]ClickclickClever 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I always hear about how rape is "normalized and excused" in culture but to be quite honest we are very harsh and it is far from "accepted" in any way shape or form. I hear things like women being asked what they were wearing when they report a rape, which literally never happens, never been brought up in court. Though we do have quite a few rape shield laws that make the decision to report a rapist, or just accuse someone, quite easy to do with impunity and anonymity. We have mobs that violently attack attack men accused of rape, whether they've been convicted or not. Even criminals in prison kill rapists. We have charities and special centers for female rape victims, we are allowed posters that remind every man to not rape women. We, as a society, are very hard on what is a terrible crime and do not in any way, shape or form condone, or normalize anything about rape. Women don't even have to supply proof, save for their testimony most of the time to get a conviction. While we do tell people they shouldn't walk alone at night and to take other safety precautions, that simply because bad people exist. Men are told the same thing, which considering that most violent crime effects them, maybe we should be focusing some of the enormous resources we give female rape victims in that direction. We have such harsh laws for rape, that when they are applied to a woman, their lawyer breaks down in tears, protests break out, because those laws were never meant for people like her, someone who raped a child. These thins are taken extremely seriously and handled with extreme care, with females getting extreme amounts of resources.

So when you talk about society "normalizing" and "condone" any part of rape, I am very confused what you are actually talking about. So please, if you could be as specific as possible, which part of society do we need to focus on to make sure we take rape seriously and stop this "rape culture" that exists. To me it sounds like it's just something you've heard other people say and therefor it's true. Like the wage gap, something repeated that many times just has to be true. Unless I am way off base and you're response just wows me with stuff I haven't considered, it seems like you should base your opinions a little more in reality and not in what you heard in an echo chamber.

[–]yufytfhf -3 points-2 points-1 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Green_armour 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Rape is not 'normalized': expert says the vast majority of men would never commit rape
Author	PierceHarlan
Upvotes	221
Comments	125
Date	August 14, 2013 8:13 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1kddij/rape_is_not_normalized_expert_says_the_vast/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/rape-is-not-normalized-expert-says-the-vast.1166378 https://theredarchive.com/post/1166378

Comments