Do men have a wall? When do they become HVM?

blushingoleander · 2023-05-20T22:51:28+00:00

Men don't have a wall but they have a ceiling. The theory goes that men get better with age as women get worse. Women must put in effort to avoid being the party girl/wine mom/whoever who starts to age hard before 30.

The wall (as applied to women) can be either a warning or a bitter fantasy for anger phasers. RPW should be using it as a warning. You shouldn't live hard, make bad decisions or think that you have forever to find a partner, especially if you want kids.

I'm sort of watching this in real time right now. A friend divorced, fit, smart, long blonde hair, not rpw but did ok when she was younger. She's been on a handful of dates that amounted to nothing and keeps announcing that she's having her hoe phase (not in those words) and doesn't care that she's being pumped and dumped. She's nearly 40. The guys she's been interested in aren't calling back...or are married...or are poly. She has the benefit of not wanting kids so she has all the time she wants to take to find and vet a new man. Things aren't impossible for her but it's not the same as being 20-something. The dating dynamics have simply moved out of her favor, particularly in a major metropolitan area.

I share your frustration that we are seeing women in their early 20s complaining that they are going to hit the wall in their mid twenties. It's insane and not really borne out by reality. The people who need the warning aren't the ones who are heeding it.

But I believe that we should be warning women that time isn't their friend. Unmarried 30 year olds feel this whether they know about RP or not. It doesn't hurt to tell young women to be more focused in their 20s.

AND

Time isn't on men's side either. Since women are attracted to more than looks, men tend to believe that they have an infinite amount of time to get themselves together and find a woman. However, there is absolutely a point where if they haven't done it yet, they likely will not. it's not a wall, it's either a floor or a ceiling depending on which metaphor you like but basically it's a failure to launch. The guy who doesn't have a career path (or a house, or other factors of maturity and stability that attract women) at 30 has severely limited his options. He can get his butt in gear and maybe overcome that, the same way a 30 yo woman can go through a major looks and attitude glow up but most people aren't going to. His dating pool will likely be women who haven't gotten themselves together until later in life. The pulled together 25 year old woman is unlikely to go 35 year old man working in the mail room. And men are susceptible to a fertility decline too, they just have a few years longer. But for every man who ages like wine there is another stinky cheese man to balance him in the dating market. You end up with fewer desirable men but the desirable men have more market power due to a wider range of options (women prefer dating within their age range or older at least as much as men prefer dating in their age range or lower).

In short there are always single people out there and there is no The ONE. At any age you find the best partner you can but that doesn't mean that the wall doesn't exist whether you consider it a fertility wall, an age wall or a market demographic wall.

And now i am off to my wine mommying.

StrangestUnicorn · 2023-05-20T09:56:46+00:00

This is a very simplistic way to look at how the dating economy changes with age. I agree we need to be more encouraging to women who are worried about aging, but that starts with acknowledging and understanding the effects that age has on women's dating prospects. The "wall" happens primarily due to changing gender ratio of single people with age, due to age gap relationships.

The ratio of single men to single women has a considerable impact in the dating market. The gender with fewer single people has more "leverage" in the dating market. From underlying biological gender differences, how this leverage is used differs by gender. When single women are in short supply, we see an increase in committed relationships, while when single men are in short supply, we see and increase in casual sex.

This is what has been happening on college campuses for the past few decades. As the number of female students started to exceed male students, hookup culture started to prevail. In the few universities where the number of male students outnumbers female students, long term relationships are still more common.

Outside of college campuses, the gender ratio of single people has similar effects in the broader population. Look at the 2019 data from Pew on percentages of people who are single by age group:

Age 18-29: Men 51% Women 32%
Age 30-49: Men 27% Women 19%
Age 50-64: Men 27% Women 29%
Age 65+: Men 21% Women 49%

These differences occur primarily due to age gap relationships, i.e. older men dating younger women. Even if you yourself have no interest in an age gap relationship, the simple fact that these relationships exist creates this imbalance in the singles demographic, which goes from highly favorable to highly unfavorable to women as they age.

The average quality of single men tends to deteriorate with age as well. College educated high-income men tend to marry at higher rates and divorce at lower rates than less-educated lower-income men. Since women are, on average, more "picky" about education and income level when choosing marriage partners, this tends to impact their dating prospects more than it does men's.

The "wall" is a bad analogy. The decline in women's marriage potential is not a sudden event at some specific age, but rather a slow and gradual shift. This is not a question of being "worthy" or "worthless", but of simple statistical odds of finding a long term partner in a dating pool that, for women, shrinks both in quantity and quality as they age.

Edit: Here are the latest numbers for year 2022:

Age 18-29: Men 63% Women 34% (29 point gap)
Age 30-49: Men 25% Women 17% (8 point gap)
Age 50-64: Men 28% Women 30% (-2 point gap)
Age 65+: Men 25% Women 39% (-14 point gap)

linkofinsanity19 · 2023-05-21T12:04:17+00:00

The wall for men is at the start. If they don't climb over it, they don't get much for options. It can take a while to climb for many, while some are given a shorter wall to climb over.

TheBunk_TB · 2023-05-20T13:39:36+00:00

There are many walls for men

AutoModerator · 2023-05-20T07:43:18+00:00

Title: Do men have a wall? When do they become HVM?

Full text: This is mostly a sarcastic rant. I hope it’s coherent.

I want to respond to the many posts I see on here where young women express that they have +1 N-count, are so OLD that they are hitting the wall, and come to us seeking desperate advice.

First of all, you don’t understand what the wall is for women.

But a better question is: is there a wall for men? I don’t think there is.

A theory that gets stated often is that “valuable partners get into committed relationships early, so as I wait and get older, the eligible bachelors get removed from the dating pool.”

Stop. Please.

Immature people partner up early, get married, cheat, and get divorced too.

Are you eliminating divorced men from your criteria? Should you?

What if a man is shy, focused on his studies, lands his degree and career, he is 28 years old!! but he heard that it’s “immature” and “weird” to date women much younger than him. All of you 27 year old women who are certain that you crashed into the wall at 21 would make great partner.

What if you are even older? I mean gasp…like over 30?

Well…what if there was a man (he’s 35), very loyal, really wanted to focus on one girl, (the wrong one) and now he is older, knows more and he’s looking for his true love? If you are 25-37 and you get along…sounds good.

What if you are 50+, widowed, craving companionship. Are you worthless? Is RPW not for you? Nope. Come right in.

Men don’t have a wall.

Do women?

Maybe.

If you want to be a SAHM trad-wife and you F your way through sugar-baby relationships until you are 29, then yes, you are the extreme example of being delusional that RP men discuss.

But if you are introverted, changing, growing, doubling-down on insisting that your friendships and intimate partners meet your standards, why do you think you are hitting the arbitrary wall, when men don’t have one?

A man could wake up and say, I’m 32, I need religion, I want to be a dad. We would all tear up a little and say “bravo, beautiful!!” With no discussion of “his wall”

But what about a 32 year old chick? Yuck.

There are double standards. Your fertility window matters if you want to have kids. But please stop discussing the “woman’s wall” as you contemplate pretty obviously miserable, self-destructive, incompatible, potentially abusive, worthless dudes as you worry about your N-count and “the wall.”

If the man isn’t right, be brave enough to leave. If you get older as each day passes by, that’s fine.

When you truly embrace RPW, even if vetting takes a long time, I think it will be worth it.

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01krazykat · 2023-05-20T19:04:33+00:00

Thanks for this post! I'm glad someone finally said it. I find it irritating when I see 18-24 year old women posting on here saying they "don't think they'll ever find someone" or something along those lines. I actually considered reaching out to the mods to see if they could crack down on these posts as they've been dominating the sub in recent months, which makes it seem like a joke. I understand younger women want to come here to learn, so maybe these ridiculous "I'm 18-24 and have no value" concerns can be addressed in the sidebar.

Also, I agree with you. The tale that there are no valuable men for aged 28-35 women is also quite ridiculous, and I'm not seeing it in real life. Valuable men exit relationships at these ages and seek out valuable women to settle down with. More times than not, they seek women of [gasp] their own age range.

AnonTheGreat01 · 2023-05-20T08:43:49+00:00

Men don’t have a wall.

'The wall' as a concept is mainly about fertility & beauty. The former is a non-issue for men & the latter is much less important in terms of SMV.

For men, the challenge is raising their SMV above a certain threshold, so that they are widely regarded as a desirable partner and consequently have plentiful options. A majority of men will not at any point in their life fall into that category.

A theory that gets stated often is that “valuable partners get into committed relationships early, so as I wait and get older, the eligible bachelors get removed from the dating pool.”

It's more nuanced than that, but I think the gist of it is true.

Female competition for a 32-year-old, established man is much fiercer than for a 25-year-old 'high potential' guy. A 29 yo woman is going to have to compete with lots of single women ranging from mid 20s to early 30s for the former, while a 24yo girl is only going to compete with other girls around that age bracket for the 25yo guy.

Yes, women get too self-conscious about their age/N-count because you can't change what's happened, and you have to figure out how to best play your cards this current hand & not three hands ago. But that doesn't make it any less true that your current hand is not as good as the one you had 3 hands ago.

When you truly embrace RPW, even if vetting takes a long time, I think it will be worth it.

The alternative is certainly worse.

aussiedollface2 · 2023-05-21T22:11:46+00:00

Men don’t have a wall imo, but most of them just never reach HVM status. They just potter along with their life as it is, and that’s fine as long as they’re happy. They might pair up with a woman of similar value who as long as she can keep her hypergamy in check, things will be fine.

Pinktoes10 · 2023-05-20T09:45:36+00:00

I love this post!

StructureNo3388 · 2023-05-20T08:14:37+00:00

A standing ovation for this!!

CountTheBees · 2023-05-20T11:22:19+00:00

I totally agree that women should take their time in nun mode and self improvement, regardless of how close they are to the wall or how far past the wall they are. That time is not wasted; time taken to gain discernment and self awareness is never wasted.

So; with that said, the rest of this comment is a fun me-playing-devil's-advocate discussion about why the scenario below is not necessarily a double standard.

A man could wake up and say, I’m 32, I need religion, I want to be a dad. We would all tear up a little and say “bravo, beautiful!!” With no discussion of “his wall”
But what about a 32 year old chick? Yuck.

A man at 32 that finds God and wants to settle down - has no obvious reason to be insincere or desperate at that specific age. Whereas a woman at 32 that finds God and wants to settle down has obvious potential ulterior motives... and therefore there's always this question, "is she sincere... or is she just lying because she's desperate?"

If she could prove that she is sincere - then it's "bravo, beautiful!". With extended vetting and conversation it is possible to be reasonably certain that she is sincere. But that takes time, emotional investment, individual analysis and it's not given the benefit of the doubt immediately like the man's story is.

From a woman's internal perspective though - she will always know if she's sincere. So there's no need for her to second guess herself and apply a double a standard. But she does need to understand why the rest of society may not immediately give her the benefit of the doubt, and may require time to validate her sincerity.

Felabryn · 2023-05-20T21:00:38+00:00

Extremely insightful posts, anecdotally most of my close friends from college and grad school took quite a while to ramp into their professional careers. I would say 27 is too early a number for the white collar track. Many had not finished placements or gone back for MBA's by then, you often have to pivot a few times. its not so linear.

32-35 is the point I see them out hunting for ladies of real substance and character. I find most could not hold onto the ones they found earlier, mostly by virtue of the toll of moving for work and constant professional exams / certifications and the general overwork of pushing into 300k-600k verticals. Once on the 300k ladder (director etc) its more linear and less grind bounded and they then had the time to go out and try to find people.

I often found that window tight for them and most were not well acclimated to their new preferential status and would get hooked in by the first pretty girl regardless of whats behind the pretty face (some got lucky albeit). Just because you worked hard and look decent doesn't mean you have the grit to cut loose those that enchant you based on values etc. It is very hard for men who have not gotten the most action as their more stud / hunk-like brothers to not get charmed by medusa.

WhatIsThisAccountFor · 2023-05-20T12:24:58+00:00

Yes. Most women between 18-25 don’t want to date men in their 40’s.

But the difference is that as men age their range of viable women increases compared to the opposite for women.

So women between 18-25 can really date anyone they want. This is the female prime when it comes to dating. You could find a man between 18-25, or you could find a man in his 30’s or even his 40’s. But these women mostly prefer men between 25-33ish.

A man between 18-25 really can only date women between 18-25. And really if the man is 20, really only women between 18-21 will be interested in his realistically. He would probably prefer any women within that age range when he is in that age range.

Women 25-30 are kind of out of the range of men 18-25. The women would prefer not to date men in that age group. These women are still pretty widely seen as attractive though, and can date most men between 23ish-40 pretty easily.

Men between 25-30 are more attractive than men between 18-25 by a pretty wide margin. These men can date women anywhere from 18-30, but usually prefer women between 21ish-25. They can be more picky, but they’re still not really in control of the dating market.

Then you get the 30-35 age range and this is where it mostly flips. Women in this age range start to get a little desperate. At this point they don’t prefer men in anywhere in the 18-30 age range, but also men in that range won’t prefer them either. Before this, younger men were still an option if they really wanted to, but now most men in that group will decline a women in the 30-35 group primarily based on age. This is also roughly the point where men their own age start to prefer younger women. Women in this age group realistically are looking for men 35-40. The window for available men is pretty tight at this point.

Men in the 30-35 age group are in their prime. Men in this age group are able to date women anywhere between 21ish and 35ish. They can be picky, they can choose who they want. They don’t really have to adhere to only their age bracket, they can bounce around to most under 30’s they want. Most single men in this age bracket will go for the 25-30 year old age bracket. The 30-35 year old bracket is not the common choice for these men.

Then 35-40. So women in this group really are limited to the 40-45+ group. Men who are 30 pretty much won’t date women who are 35 at all.

Men in the 35-40 age group start exit their prime and lose the wide spread appeal unless they are uniquely successful or good looking. Now 25 year olds start to consider them old, but 28ish-40 is still all available to them.

40-45+ is where women’s option get very slim. These women are probably looking at 50’s+ men.

40-45 men are looking for 30+ still. 30 is probably too young for the 45 year olds (the women won’t be attracted), but 35+ is very viable. The problem is that at this point, all of the attractive men in this group will all be taken. Good men don’t make it to this age without being attached to someone. So at this age group it’s more about the scarcity of good men. So the bar for women to find one gets lower.

50+ is very heavily male skewed. These men are well into their careers and have established lives. Women seem to have less problems dating divorced men than men do dating divorced women. Same with children.

The unfortunate truth is that there are more good women than there are good men. Men are much more competitive than women and it causes a lot of toxic traits to manifest in them as a result. So finding a good man who isn’t already taken and is successful at this stage in life is very rare.

The unfortunately truth for women is that their peak is much earlier in life. I would even say too early for most to be able to make a good decision on who to commit to. It’s not very fair, and to live your live knowing that the time when you are most naive is the time when you are most attractive is a very difficult realization to come to. Men peak later and have much more time to develop their desires and goals before then.

TL;dr: women peak early and hit a wall, then slowly decline/plateau with age.

Men hit a wall in early adulthood, break thru the wall and peak in early/mid adulthood, hit another wall in mid life, then break thru again in late life.

rustichomemaker · 2023-05-20T12:12:01+00:00

As someone else said, “the wall” is about fertility and beauty. Both decline the older a woman gets and the older the woman the more likely it is that that her N count is higher. Men are attracted to youth and fertility and most prefer women with a low N count. This is just the way it is, and being angry about it doesn’t help anyone.

Does that mean if you’re 32 that you’ve “hit the wall” and will never find a traditional relationship? No - but your dating pool will be smaller as you’ll have to compete with more women that are younger and may be perceived as more desirable by a HVM.

While I don’t think women should be in despair over “hitting the wall”, I do think it’s normal and natural to be concerned about it. If I found myself suddenly single with 2 kids I sure as hell would be concerned about it. It’s probably actually beneficial to be concerned about it because you’ll be more likely to be the absolute best version of yourself if you’re concerned about the competition.

VasiliyZaitzev · 2023-05-21T05:09:47+00:00

But a better question is: is there a wall for men? I don’t think there is.

I sometimes joke that the Wall^SPLAT! for men is coterminous with death. That is not quite correct, of course. 79 year old Robert De Niro just announced that he became a father last week for the seventh time. Obviously, De Niro is a massive outlier in terms of money and fame, etc. but there is no way the Judi Dench or Sally Field could do the same thing (and I have no idea if De Niro used some sort of IVF type thing or whatever. It’s entirely possible.)

I am a substantially more ordinary guy than De Niro is. But things don’t seem any more difficult now in my 50s than they did in my 40s or 30s. Maybe 60 is when it all comes crashing down. I will let you know.

Lea_Ugly_Lea · 2023-05-20T18:14:30+00:00

The wall for men it is retirement age or were they are not able to produce or provide at the same level. If you can't, you can still bang some young women.

chrisyankar · 2023-05-22T21:24:51+00:00

We are born as men with the wall in front of us and we must prepare ourselves for a long time to jump over it.

Title	Do men have a wall? When do they become HVM?
Author	BePrivateGirl
Upvotes	59
Comments	53
Date	May 20, 2023 7:43 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RedPillWomen
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/13mldzh/do_men_have_a_wall_when_do_they_become_hvm/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWomen/do-men-have-a-wall-when-do-they-become-hvm.1219811 https://theredarchive.com/post/1219811

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